Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

desertdudeshj · Oct 15, 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oc ... tion-opens

Flying Dutchman · Oct 16, 2010

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3969418,00.html

Sixty-five years have passed since the end of the Second World War, but even today it would seem that many Germans still cling to the prejudice and racism which the Nazi party identified with.

A new poll conducted by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation for Political Education, a foundation with close ties to the German Social Democratic party, has found that one in 10 Germans wants "a new Fuehrer to lead the country with an iron fist", and that every third German thinks all foreign immigrants should be expelled from Germany if unemployment becomes a problem. The poll consisted of 2,500 people of different ages. The results were announced on Wednesday.

Some 25% of all respondents expressed racist opinions, and 15.9% said they somewhat understood why a Fuehrer needed to be appointed; 58% of the participants claimed that Germany needed to curb the traditional Muslim lifestyle. As for anti-Semitism, 17.2% of the survey's participants supported the statement that "Jews have too much influence in the world today".

Bethsmum · Oct 16, 2010

I don't see the problem with that poll, you would get the same results in Britain. People are sick of coming second to immigrants in their own country. Britain is, by it's history, a white Christian society and it should stay that way.

The Germans are very racist and always have been, so what? They brought the Poles in to do the cheap labour then wanted rid of them, they don't like the British, they never vote for us in the Eurovision Song Contest and I don't particularly like them either. They are bossy and arrogant and they always try to get the best sun beds. When I lived in Germany, I had 'auslander' printed on my cheque book, how racist is that? It didn't bother me particularly. Mind you, I'll give them something, they are proud of their country, that's something I admire about them.

desertdudeshj · Oct 16, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Britain is, by it's history, a white Christian society and it should stay that way.

event horizon · Oct 16, 2010

I'm pretty sure the framers of the constitutions of Iraq, Egypt, Pal-Arab territories, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Syria, et al., had the same views as Bethsmum.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic state..

Iraq is a Sovereign People's Democratic Republic. Its basic objective is the realization of one Arab State and the build-up of the socialist system

....

Islam is the religion of the State

The Arab Republic of Egypt is a Socialist Democratic State based on the alliance of the working forces of the people.

....

…the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

...

Islam is the Religion of the State. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia).

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is an Independent sovereign Arab State.

...

Islam is the religion of the State and Arabic is its official language.

Woops!

desertdudeshj · Oct 16, 2010

You can't have your cake and eat it too, unlike Britain they don't claim to be a secular states or be like Israel a Jewish Secular democratic state !?

Another FAIL ....Next

event horizon · Oct 16, 2010

I thought the Church of England was the official Church of the English people?

So, England is only half as bad as the Islamic/Arab states.

At least with England, their official status is in name only and the Bible is not a source of legislation for the state, unlike the Arab-Islamic states I quoted above.

Misery Called Life · Oct 16, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:
Bethsmum wrote:Britain is, by it's history, a white Christian society and it should stay that way.

There's something quite special bout you BM you never fail to bring out the best in DD. :bounce:

Bethsmum · Oct 16, 2010

Yes, I do, dont I? At least he hasn't called me a fat northern bird, .....yet! Maybe he is a chubby chaser! What say you DDS, fancy a fat northern blonde bird or what?

desertdudeshj · Oct 16, 2010

Only if you promise to keep your yap shut

shafique · Oct 16, 2010

event horizon wrote:I thought the Church of England was the official Church of the English people?

Depends how you define 'official' - it certainly is the church that is controlled by the State (the government appoints bishops etc - and was initially set up when Henry VIII wanted to marry a second time and the Pope said no)

Was Hitler's Protestant Reich Church the official church of the Germans?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Oct 16, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:Only if you promise to keep your yap shut

Now DDS you wouldn't want me to keep it shut, would you, now admit it? Never a dull moment with BM . OOps there I go again, talking about myself in the third person. Sorry if I'm getting on your wick :wink:

Dillon · Oct 16, 2010

shafique wrote:
event horizon wrote:I thought the Church of England was the official Church of the English people?

Depends how you define 'official' - it certainly is the church that is controlled by the State (the government appoints bishops etc - and was initially set up when Henry VIII wanted to marry a second time and the Pope said no)

Was Hitler's Protestant Reich Church the official church of the Germans?

Cheers,
Shafique

For clarification, the Church of England was originally set up in the first century AD, and Henry VIII simply performed the reformation of the C of E.

The Crown nominates rather than appoints diocesan bishops, and the due process of appointments is now carried out by the Episcopal Nominations Commission.

Hitlers Reich Church was an attempt by the despot and his propaganda machine to support the atrocities he and his followers were involved in, at that time.

Come on Shaf, you can do better than this?

shafique · Oct 16, 2010

The question still remains - was Hitler's Reich Church the 'official' church of Germany in that period?

The CoE before Henry's tiff recognised the authority of the Pope - so, I'd still stand by my statement about Henry VIII - but where it started is moot when it comes to the main point about whether it is the 'official' Church of the English (and what that means - when not everyone in England, then and now, belonged to that church - be they pagan, catholic etc).

However, I take your point that Henry VIII reformed an existing church and made the monarch the head of the Church (and indeed made political appointments to the Church - the highest post being Archibishop of Canterbury)

That the state is now pulling back from it's control of the CoE (as well as the moves to change the rules regarding Catholics and the monarchy) are all recent moves and don't change the fact that the CoE was set up as a State Church by Henry - and there is fundamental divide between CoE and Catholicism (as well as similarities between the High Anglicanism and Catholicism) - the fundamental point being who is the head of the church.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Oct 16, 2010

shafique wrote:The question still remains - was Hitler's Reich Church the 'official' church of Germany in that period?

The CoE before Henry's tiff recognised the authority of the Pope - so, I'd still stand by my statement about Henry VIII - but where it started is moot when it comes to the main point about whether it is the 'official' Church of the English (and what that means - when not everyone in England, then and now, belonged to that church - be they pagan, catholic etc).

However, I take your point that Henry VIII reformed an existing church and made the monarch the head of the Church (and indeed made political appointments to the Church - the highest post being Archibishop of Canterbury)

That the state is now pulling back from it's control of the CoE (as well as the moves to change the rules regarding Catholics and the monarchy) are all recent moves and don't change the fact that the CoE was set up as a State Church by Henry - and there is fundamental divide between CoE and Catholicism (as well as similarities between the High Anglicanism and Catholicism) - the fundamental point being who is the head of the church.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nothing moot about it, the C of E has been both Catholic and Protestant since the days of the Roman Empire, the main reason Henry VIII performed the reformation was financial and to move the powerbase, he was losing control and far too much money to the Catholic Church, his Daughter, Bloody Mary reversed the process and reinstated Catholicism as the denomination of the C of E but that didn’t last very long.

You can move the goalposts as much as you like, :lol:

The Crown still nominates rather than appoints diocesan bishops, and the due process of appointments is still carried out by the Episcopal Nominations Commission. And Hitler was still a despot :lol:

shafique · Oct 16, 2010

Who is the head of the Catholic Church of England?

(Edit: If it is not the head of state as is the case with the 'reformed CoE' - then my point isn't valid and you're right when the CoE started may not be moot. If it is the head of State, then when the CoE started is moot - the question was whether Hitler's Reich church was the 'official' church of Germany - and drawing an analogy with the CoE having the head of state as head of the church - something that Henry VIII did)

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Oct 16, 2010

There isn't one.

shafique · Oct 16, 2010

Ok - then (allowing for my edit in the previous post) - doesn't that make the Catholic CoE distinct from the Reformed CoE which has the monarch as its head?

(They can't be the same church if one has a head and one doesn't).

Am I missing something here?

I presume that Roman Catholics recognise the Pope, the headless Catholic CoE don't and the Reformed CoE recognise the monarch as its head?

But isn't it the reformed CoE that is the 'official' church - in the context of eh's initial statement?

...

and isn't Hitler's church as 'official' as the CoE which has the head of state at its head?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Oct 17, 2010

Bloody hell Shafique, this is all a bit heavy for a Saturday night isn't it? The head of the Catholic Church of England? Surely the Catholic Church and the C of E are a seperate entity? His Popeiness was in the UK recently, he didn't go down very well, I've seen more supporters at a City match. Religion isn't very popular in the UK at the moment, everyone prefers the X Factor.

Dillon · Oct 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Ok - then (allowing for my edit in the previous post) - doesn't that make the Catholic CoE distinct from the Reformed CoE which has the monarch as its head?

(They can't be the same church if one has a head and one doesn't).

Am I missing something here?

I presume that Roman Catholics recognise the Pope, the headless Catholic CoE don't and the Reformed CoE recognise the monarch as its head?

But isn't it the reformed CoE that is the 'official' church - in the context of eh's initial statement?

and isn't Hitler's church as 'official' as the CoE which has the head of state at its head?

Cheers,
Shafique

There aren’t multiple ‘Churches of England’ in the UK, there is only one official denomination.
The Current C of E is protestant in denomination.
The Monarch is the Supreme Governor of the C of E, this is purely a symbolic position.
There are I think 22 Bishops who sit in the House of Lords, and contribute to the daily affairs in the Upper House so the truth is there is more control by the Church over State affairs than there is State over Church!
There are many other religious groups practicing in the UK, none of which carry the title or are considered C of E.

There is no Catholic C of E.
There is no ‘Reformed’ C of E.
EH was correct in his statement ‘I thought the Church of England was the official Church of the English people?’ it is.

Your original post was;

Depends how you define 'official' - it certainly is the church that is controlled by the State (the government appoints bishops etc - and was initially set up when Henry VIII wanted to marry a second time and the Pope said no)

Was Hitler's Protestant Reich Church the official church of the Germans?

And my response was;
For clarification, the Church of England was originally set up in the first century AD, and Henry VIII simply performed the reformation of the C of E, i.e. he changed it from Catholicism to Protestant.

The Crown nominates rather than appoints diocesan bishops, and the due process of appointments is now carried out by the Episcopal Nominations Commission.

Hitlers Reich Church was an attempt by the despot and his propaganda machine to support the atrocities he and his followers were involved in, at that time.

Come on Shaf, you can do better than this?

It really is as simple as that, I don’t understand why you insist on creating so much work around these discussions, if you aren’t confident in your statements it would be so much clearer if you would ask rather than provide supposition and expect others to correct misleading statement.

I hope the above is now clear and bid you a good night.

event horizon · Oct 17, 2010

if you aren’t confident in your statements it would be so much clearer if you would ask rather than provide supposition and expect others to correct misleading statement.

+ 10000

shafique · Oct 17, 2010

Dillon - I'm certainly not going to criticise you for pedantry - I'm all for clarification. I hope that the reworded question below meets your standards of preciseness. If not I'll be happy to correct again.

So, let me be more precise and ask my question about Hitler's Reich church again :

"eh - when you say that the CoE is the official church of the English, you need to be precise about what CoE you are referring to. Whilst most people will understand this to mean the reformed CoE with the monarch as head of state, and which reformation was undertaken by the Tudor king Henry VIII, there are other 'church of Enlglands' with no heads and who call themselves Catholic. So, assuming you mean the official CoE (with monarch/head of state as head of the Church) - may I respectfully ask whether you therefore also call Hitler's Protestant Reich Church the official church of Germany when Hitler was in power?

In the past the top posts in the official CoE were political appointments by the monarch, nowadays the control whilst still enshrined in the rules only amounts to nominations. So whilst on paper the Church is controlled by the State - and was done so explicitly in times gone by, nowadays in largely secular England, no one really pays any notice."

Did I miss something out?

(Oh and BM - I'm travelling at the moment - so am missing my weekly dose of the X-factor. Are you watching this year? I can't believe Wagner is through... ! :shock:

)

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Oct 17, 2010

Morning Shafique, the X Factor is quite entertaining at the moment, more so as the judges are having a go at each other. Cheryl has dyed her hair red, Simon likes it and he said it didn't make her look so orange and she, in turn, said his teeth looked whiter! Wagner has got to go! At least get his damned hair cut, a man with long grey hair! Whatever next? Have a nice day!

Dillon · Oct 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Dillon - I'm certainly not going to criticise you for pedantry - I'm all for clarification. I hope that the reworded question below meets your standards of preciseness. If not I'll be happy to correct again.

So, let me be more precise and ask my question about Hitler's Reich church again :

"eh - when you say that the CoE is the official church of the English, you need to be precise about what CoE you are referring to. Whilst most people will understand this to mean the reformed CoE with the monarch as head of state, and which reformation was undertaken by the Tudor king Henry VIII, there are other 'church of Enlglands' with no heads and who call themselves Catholic. So, assuming you mean the official CoE (with monarch/head of state as head of the Church) - may I respectfully ask whether you therefore also call Hitler's Protestant Reich Church the official church of Germany when Hitler was in power?

In the past the top posts in the official CoE were political appointments by the monarch, nowadays the control whilst still enshrined in the rules only amounts to nominations. So whilst on paper the Church is controlled by the State - and was done so explicitly in times gone by, nowadays in largely secular England, no one really pays any notice."

Did I miss something out?

(Oh and BM - I'm travelling at the moment - so am missing my weekly dose of the X-factor. Are you watching this year? I can't believe Wagner is through... ! )

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, Anyone responding to your ‘leading questions’ needs to be precise and pedantic.

Now I think you’re just trying to wind me up! After I have already corrected you previously, you are still making up your own confusing labels for the C of E, either a wind up or you need to ask someone you trust if you don’t want to believe me, I don’t mind, really? You stated the following in your previous post;

‘what CoE you are referring to?’ There is only one C of E.
‘the reformed CoE’ No such entity exists.
‘there are other church of Enlglands' No there are not.
‘the official CoE’ There is only one C of E.
‘Hitler's Protestant Reich Church’ Another self designated label? do you realise how much confusion you are creating by making up these nonsense titles, or is it your intention to blow a smoke screen?

I veel say zees only vonce! :shock:

There is only ONE “Church of England” it’s denomination is Protestant, there are lots of other Churches in England as well as Temples and more Mosques than you can shake a stick at! But when people refer to the C of E, you need to understand that there is only one, it started as a Catholic denomination in the Mid 1st Century AD, It has gone through several transformations since, the Protestants are the current stakeholders.

The “Reich Church” was not of protestant denomination, it did not have the Christian cross as its symbol it had the swastika. It did not have a Bible, this was replaced by "Mein Kampf" which was placed on the altar. By it was a sword. Only invited Nazis were allowed to give sermons in a Reich Church.

Hitler had already imposed the Third Reich as the Head of the Protestant denominated church by installing Ludwig Müller, a Nazi, as the Lutheran bishop in Berlin. He had also, by the end of the 1930’s almost destroyed the Catholic Church and their Priests, as he perceived the Pope as a threat.

For an answer to Your question for EH, take your pick as the Third Reich controlled them all. Amen

shafique · Oct 17, 2010

Dillon, may I suggest you look up what the Protestant Reich Church was and perhaps have a look at the surviving Martin Luther Memorial Church in Berlin (pics widely available) and then revisit your post above?

You may start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reich_Church

I wasn't aware that they replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf and did not have a cross as a symbol. The photos I've seen all have crosses in them. Some have a swastica on a cross, but the cross is still there.

But even if they did - the question still remains: Was this Reich church the official church of Germany in Hitler's time? It seems to me that it is as much an official church as the CoE which has the head of state at its head.

(But you'll have to explain to me again how the Catholic part of the CoE doesn't have anyone at its head but that there is only one church, and the head of state is the head of the protestant part of the one church. :shock:

- perhaps a diagram will help.

)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Oct 17, 2010

Dillon: Here's some info about the Protestant Reich Church:

http://sites.google.com/site/apostolica ... utheranism

This was news to me when I came across this info - I've no reason to doubt the info given on the website. However, if you think that it is not accurate, please let me know what parts and why.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Oct 17, 2010

shafique wrote:Dillon, may I suggest you look up what the Protestant Reich Church was and perhaps have a look at the surviving Martin Luther Memorial Church in Berlin (pics widely available) and then revisit your post above?

You may start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reich_Church

I wasn't aware that they replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf and did not have a cross as a symbol. The photos I've seen all have crosses in them. Some have a swastica on a cross, but the cross is still there.

But even if they did - the question still remains: Was this Reich church the official church of Germany in Hitler's time? It seems to me that it is as much an official church as the CoE which has the head of state at its head.

(But you'll have to explain to me again how the Catholic part of the CoE doesn't have anyone at its head but that there is only one church, and the head of state is the head of the protestant part of the one church. - perhaps a diagram will help. )

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you for the offer Shaf, but I’m more than comfortable with my historical sources that I will not on this occasion pit them against a wiki article :lol:

For further clarification, you asked “Who is the head of the Catholic Church of England?” to which I replied, “There isn’t one.” Meaning, there isn’t a Catholic C of E.

The head of the Catholic Church in England (Spot the difference?) is the Cardinal.

Bethsmum · Oct 17, 2010

Hiya Shaf, I must admit I don't get what you mean about the Catholic part of the C of E. The C of E, into which I was christened is a Protestant church and doesn't have a Catholic part. Am I missing something? BTW the US Forces took over the hotel in Bavaria where Hitler wrote the first chapter of Meine Kampf and used it as one of their R&R bases. It was a fantastic place and I stayed there a couple of times c/o the US military. I went back a few years ago and was really disappointed to see that, after the yanks gave it back, the Germans tore it down and with it destroyed a lot of the bunkers you were able to visit. The Eagles Nest is still in one piece. The Germans are ashamed of their history, I think. What an absolutely beautiful part of the world Bavaria and Austria are. Have you ever been?

shafique · Oct 17, 2010

Hiya BM - your understanding of the CoE is as mine is - a protestant church that is different from the Roman Catholic church. And yes I've been to Germany a few times - Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne - and drove down to Lake Constance and stayed overnight in Austria on the lake shore (we didn't realise we had driven into Austria - what we thought was a bus station was actually the border!). This was before the Euro was introduced, so a few years back now. I agree very picturesque.

Dillon the second link I gave you was where I got my info about the Protestant Reich Church - that is not from Wiki.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 18, 2010

Dillon, shafique is known as 'O Wise One' in these parts.

Even when wrong on a topic he didn't study enough (at all) in high school, he is nevertheless our expert when it comes to all things history, theology and current events.

Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Germany Opens Hitler Exhibition.

Go To

Dubai Discussions

Dubai Expat Forums

Dubai Business

Dubai Tech Discussions

Dubai Classifieds