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I don't know is it we becoming a threat to EU or is it EU bad management as usual but I guess UAE vision is paying off. what do they mean by "contain gulf carriers "? if they cant compete then they should just get out of business instead of charging the passengers for their greed ,giving stupid excusses or pointing fingers at others, I thought its an open market but hey I guessThis is just their typical behavior .

http://www.emirates247.com/business/cor ... 1-1.302325

http://www.emirates247.com/2.277/aviati ... 27-1.28605

For a chaneg I agree with you. There is also a major cry about the Canadian airbase incident lately aswell. The media over there is using language like black mail and unreasonable demands. There major complain is because these are govt subsidised airlines with which they cannot compete with. I say tough luck and f*ck off.

Instead of b1tching about it improve your services, free market and all that jazz

Saw this on television news and had to laugh. What a bunch of cry babies. The rates that Emirates and Itihad charge as right up there with the other airlines. Itihad is top, IMO. Emirates is a tight second only because I think there has been a bit of decline in service. Given the choice of BA and Emirates/Itihad, there is no question which one I would chose.

As DD said, improvement of services, cleaner airlines, better food might draw more passengers. That goes for a lot of American carriers. When travelling in the states my husband and I were on one of a few carriers that flew between San Francisco and Las Vegas. We laughed all the way - everything about it was so pathetic is was funny. One class, plastic cups, a cup of water was free, but if you wanted a snack you had to buy it. Flew Las Vegas to NYC on Delta and we thought it was one of the first carriers that was used when Delta set up. In business the screen was the size of a mobile phone. Business was like sitting in the cargohold with seats. About a 6 hour flight and I can't remember if a meal was even served (leaning to not).

I have to say, Emirates and Itihad have spoiled me. There is something to be said about the Emirates crew:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYNIAj0E ... re=related

Oh, an Singapore Air and Qatar Air is good as well.

I tried them all, Air India is well on top.

Right, FIRSTLY

I know zero - nothing - nada - mafi - ingenting ( ) about airline standard operating models

Thus I am asking all you with intimate knowledge of the subject, gleaned from your executive economy class seats, how is it that we are led to believe that Dubai (not Abu Dhabi) has funded the vast amount of it's aircraft purchases using the offset of export credits generated by oil sales ? Is this just a vicious rumour spead by the angry and disconsolate competition ?

And can anyone point me to the balancesheet of Emirates Airlines that will "prove" that income so far exceeds costs that it can order so many aircraft. Erm, no I did not think so. It sits behind the ICD wall of silence

To the best of my knowledge the airline industry is a margin based vertical that survives on a day to day P&L measured in great deal by the accountants and corporate treasurers, who basically determine seat rates required to survive (meet targets).

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a7ftMWxaoMlg

Offers a different perspective from the Dubai government sponsored Emirates 24/7 and to be honest I know who I trust when it comes to producing transparent accounts ... (his name is not UAEKid )

well ,to our concerns as consumers, is Emirates and Ettihad ... cheap ? I haven't used other airlines for a long time but I don't think they are exactly cheap. so what could be the problem ?

viking-warrior wrote:Right, FIRSTLY

I know zero - nothing - nada - mafi - ingenting ( ) about airline standard operating models

Thus I am asking all you with intimate knowledge of the subject, gleaned from your executive economy class seats, how is it that we are led to believe that Dubai (not Abu Dhabi) has funded the vast amount of it's aircraft purchases using the offset of export credits generated by oil sales ? Is this just a vicious rumour spead by the angry and disconsolate competition ?

And can anyone point me to the balancesheet of Emirates Airlines that will "prove" that income so far exceeds costs that it can order so many aircraft. Erm, no I did not think so. It sits behind the ICD wall of silence

To the best of my knowledge the airline industry is a margin based vertical that survives on a day to day P&L measured in great deal by the accountants and corporate treasurers, who basically determine seat rates required to survive (meet targets).

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a7ftMWxaoMlg

Offers a different perspective from the Dubai government sponsored Emirates 24/7 and to be honest I know who I trust when it comes to producing transparent accounts ... (his name is not UAEKid )

Brilliant VW!
I always wondered where Emirates got the money to buy more than a hundred planes in a few years.
I would also add that they pay their crews a fraction to what Air France, Luftansa and all other Companies pay theirs.
Have you ever seen an Emirati in the Emirates Cabin Crews. Flight crew, never gonna happen.

viking-warrior wrote:Right, FIRSTLY

I know zero - nothing - nada - mafi - ingenting ( ) about airline standard operating models

Thus I am asking all you with intimate knowledge of the subject, gleaned from your executive economy class seats, how is it that we are led to believe that Dubai (not Abu Dhabi) has funded the vast amount of it's aircraft purchases using the offset of export credits generated by oil sales ? Is this just a vicious rumour spead by the angry and disconsolate competition ?

And can anyone point me to the balancesheet of Emirates Airlines that will "prove" that income so far exceeds costs that it can order so many aircraft. Erm, no I did not think so. It sits behind the ICD wall of silence

To the best of my knowledge the airline industry is a margin based vertical that survives on a day to day P&L measured in great deal by the accountants and corporate treasurers, who basically determine seat rates required to survive (meet targets).

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a7ftMWxaoMlg

Offers a different perspective from the Dubai government sponsored Emirates 24/7 and to be honest I know who I trust when it comes to producing transparent accounts ... (his name is not UAEKid )

Errrrr, never thought about it. Should I????

herve wrote:Brilliant VW!
I always wondered where Emirates got the money to buy more than a hundred planes in a few years.
I would also add that they pay their crews a fraction to what Air France, Luftansa and all other Companies pay theirs.
Have you ever seen an Emirati in the Emirates Cabin Crews. Flight crew, never gonna happen.

Thats right herve.
Believe it or not, they actually have to borrow this money on the international market.
Even more alarming is the fact that they have to pay it back with interest.
Shock horror!
The EU whine can be translated thus:
But But...
We pay our staff more...
they are always on strike.
We pay corporate tax (thats if we make a profit, which we try not to),
Our airport makes us pay the same tax as they have to.
Our tickets are more expensive,
Our planes are old and crappy, and burn more fuel than Apollo 13,
Their IFE system is better than ours,
They WERE letting passengers carry water on the plane... but we put a stop to that!
They allow passengers to use their mobile phones instead of trying to make money from this service.
Our flight stewards are old whores and don't have perky breasts like theirs,
Our governemnt bails us out,
We can't fly thru volcanic ash.
The international financiers won't touch us with a barge pole,
We want a free market!!!... all to ourselves.

benwj wrote:Thats right herve.
Believe it or not, they actually have to borrow this money on the international market.
Even more alarming is the fact that they have to pay it back with interest.
Shock horror!
The EU whine can be translated thus:
But But...
We pay our staff more...
they are always on strike.
We pay corporate tax (thats if we make a profit, which we try not to),
Our airport makes us pay the same tax as they have to.
Our tickets are more expensive,
Our planes are old and crappy, and burn more fuel than Apollo 13,
Their IFE system is better than ours,
They WERE letting passengers carry water on the plane... but we put a stop to that!
They allow passengers to use their mobile phones instead of trying to make money from this service.
Our flight stewards are old whores and don't have perky breasts like theirs,
Our governemnt bails us out,
We can't fly thru volcanic ash.
The international financiers won't touch us with a barge pole,
We want a free market!!!... all to ourselves.

Agree with most of that Benwj, but, and isn't there always a but ...

There's a flaw in your starting point ...

The inequity lies in that Emirates (can't speak for Etihad) did not borrow from the International Markets to fund its aircraft, its uses State Export Credits to offset the initial down payments, a bit like "borrowing" money from your dad's wallet to put down on an order for a Ferrari 458 Italia, then it goes to the international markets, issues a bond under the "sovereign halo" credit rating against the future value of the delivered and operating aircraft.

This is not illegal but its questionable because the initial Export Credit has essentially been traded and then cashed via the bond market, and where then does it show up on the balance sheet ? My guess as "profit"

Well using that model - my aunt Ethel could run an airline in profit, however by most sets of accounting rules and regulations that qualifies as "state funding / subsidies"

The "government" probably takes its money back eventually via scheduled dividend payments but because it is all shielded behind ICD we only have the word of vested interests who tell us "we do not get government subsidies and I challenge anyone to prove it". Thats not a reasoned argument, its churlish.


This serves as further evidence, as if any more were required, as to why governance and transparency are the two main stumbling block for the UAE to overcome before it can become a global player, until then unfortunately Air France, Lufthansa, BA et al, have the moral high ground and the economic case that will probably force legislation in to the EU that will cut back Emirates penetration of the EU market on the grounds that it is uncompetitive and unfairly advantaged.

As for how the cabin staff look or perform, you make a fair case, but really in the big scheme of things who cares, Emirates are not far off hiring all of their flight attendants from some outsourcing farm in Chennai and paying them in Nakheel credits !!

benwj wrote:

herve wrote:Brilliant VW!
I always wondered where Emirates got the money to buy more than a hundred planes in a few years.
I would also add that they pay their crews a fraction to what Air France, Luftansa and all other Companies pay theirs.
Have you ever seen an Emirati in the Emirates Cabin Crews. Flight crew, never gonna happen.

Thats right herve.
.

Believe it or not, they actually have to borrow this money on the international market.
Even more alarming is the fact that they have to pay it back with interest.
No they don't, when pay back time comes, they put a hold on it and go in "restructuration" cutting interest rates by 10
Shock horror!
The EU whine can be translated thus:
But But...
We pay our staff more...
Yes, while Emirates enslave theirs
they are always on strike.
you go to prison if you do that in the UAE
We pay corporate tax (thats if we make a profit, which we try not to),
All foreign airline companies pay taxes to Dubai, Emirates does not
Our flight stewards are old whores and don't have perky breasts like theirs,
you prefer young whores indeed
Our governemnt bails us out,
and yours.....
We can't fly thru volcanic ash.
you want to crash for failure engines and have your tribe sues the airline for a hundred years retirement plan
The international financiers won't touch us with a barge pole,
They cannot touch you in the UAE, because of your double standards
We want a free market!!!... all to ourselves
speak for yourself
No need to be a fortune teller, to predict that you are going to a wall. A catastrophic Bankrupcy.
Every day brings you more lawsuits, more debts, while your incomes get thinner and thinner.

I work for a Government entity and am familiar with the Export Guarantee Loans available from foreign Governments, one of the requirements to qualify for such a loan is that it is made to a Government body, so Emirates and Etihad qualify as such and are using cheap foreign finance to buy foreign products and services, in this case, aircraft, who wouldn’t? European and American Airlines now want their respective Governments to make available similar cheap finance deals so they can buy the same aircraft at a similar cost, sounds good in principal but financial subsidy to a domestic company comes under a different set of financial subsidy rules and thereby lies a huge problem!

No mention is made in the articles however, of the added benefit to the host nation of the Aircraft export sales. The rest is simply protectionism, further routes for Emirates and/or Etihad will eat into Canada’s domestic market as their business model has done in the UK and other European Countries, in the UK alone, Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham residents can fly direct to those airports from the Middle East, they don’t need to fly via London as you would have to with BA, it’s a winning model and they’re now attempting to expand the same into Canada and N America, protectionism, they’re all at it!

I think ben said it best

benwj wrote:We want a free market!!!... all to ourselves.

When someone better comes along and its not them, they throw a hissy fit. And I think UAE did a good thing to throw out Canada's base for being a cry baby.

herve wrote:

benwj wrote:

herve wrote:Brilliant VW!
I always wondered where Emirates got the money to buy more than a hundred planes in a few years.
I would also add that they pay their crews a fraction to what Air France, Luftansa and all other Companies pay theirs.
Have you ever seen an Emirati in the Emirates Cabin Crews. Flight crew, never gonna happen.

Thats right herve.
.

Believe it or not, they actually have to borrow this money on the international market.
Even more alarming is the fact that they have to pay it back with interest.
No they don't, when pay back time comes, they put a hold on it and go in "restructuration" cutting interest rates by 10
Shock horror!
The EU whine can be translated thus:
But But...
We pay our staff more...
Yes, while Emirates enslave theirs
they are always on strike.
you go to prison if you do that in the UAE
We pay corporate tax (thats if we make a profit, which we try not to),
All foreign airline companies pay taxes to Dubai, Emirates does not
Our flight stewards are old whores and don't have perky breasts like theirs,
you prefer young whores indeed
Our governemnt bails us out,
and yours.....
We can't fly thru volcanic ash.
you want to crash for failure engines and have your tribe sues the airline for a hundred years retirement plan
The international financiers won't touch us with a barge pole,
They cannot touch you in the UAE, because of your double standards
We want a free market!!!... all to ourselves
speak for yourself
No need to be a fortune teller, to predict that you are going to a wall. A catastrophic Bankrupcy.
Every day brings you more lawsuits, more debts, while your incomes get thinner and thinner.

You people really do need to move on and get a life, seriously, stop complaining about your lot and do something constructive about it or just move on and let other people do it, this constant moaning is getting rather tedious

Well thats what forums are for, to talk and discuss issues, topics, news and not just online filrting and dribbly banter If you don't like it move on bud, no restraints

Who said that?

I'm on my way to Changi Airport (Singapore), going back hOme flying with Emirates Airlines, does anyone wants me to check on anything or do some evaluation?

Yeah can you see if Singapore Airlines is moaning like the Europeans. I don't think so.

Hahaha!!
The Singaporians seems to be cheerful and happy !!
I'm currently in the plane, and enjOying it mOre than Airfrance the zesht

AnymOre concerns anybody?? LooooL

-- Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:27 am --

Btw, the plane is full of europeans :/

desertdudeshj wrote:And I think UAE did a good thing to throw out Canada's base for being a cry baby.

This is just the media speculating... again.