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I saw that a 'famous astrologer' is visiting the UAE soon - and it led me to think of a query I've had about fortune tellers in general.

Surely if astrology, tarot cards, tea leaves, chicken bones etc etc worked, we'd be able to find some examples of headlines such as 'Psychic wins lottery' or 'Planes will fly into twin towers in September' (published before 9/11) etc.

To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who predicted that Princess Di would die when she did (and yet each year astrologers did predict what would happen to her and other celebrities), or that 9/11 would happen.

But then again - perhaps there are examples that I'm not aware of??

The well known predictions of doom and gloom have so far not resulted in the end of the world (there were a flurry of them around the millenium - not counting the millenium bug) - but I think the next big one will be the various predictions for 2012 and links to Mayan forecasts. Something to bear in mind when the London Olympics is on, I guess... ? Not long to go now...

Anyway - is there anyone that believes in fortune tellers?

Cheers,
Shafique

Not me. They are all con artists.

I remember seeing a sign, placed by event organisers, outside a closed Astrologers Marquee at a Craft Event I attended some Years ago and the sign read something like;

Due to unforeseen circumstances, Gypsy Esmerelda will be late and will open for business sometime later this afternoon!

All a bunch of hogwash

shafique wrote:I saw that a 'famous astrologer' is visiting the UAE soon - and it led me to think of a query I've had about fortune tellers in general.

Surely if astrology, tarot cards, tea leaves, chicken bones etc etc worked, we'd be able to find some examples of headlines such as 'Psychic wins lottery' or 'Planes will fly into twin towers in September' (published before 9/11) etc.

To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who predicted that Princess Di would die when she did (and yet each year astrologers did predict what would happen to her and other celebrities), or that 9/11 would happen.

But then again - perhaps there are examples that I'm not aware of??

The well known predictions of doom and gloom have so far not resulted in the end of the world (there were a flurry of them around the millenium - not counting the millenium bug) - but I think the next big one will be the various predictions for 2012 and links to Mayan forecasts. Something to bear in mind when the London Olympics is on, I guess... ? Not long to go now...

Anyway - is there anyone that believes in fortune tellers?

Cheers,
Shafique

Is this actually legal here Shaf?

Don't know Sage.

Superstition is rife amongst some sections of society - and even though Islam forbids fortune telling (forbidden in the Quran), I'm not sure if there is a loop hole in the UAE law for astrology (I mean, the papers all carry Horoscopes, for example).

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, the things you describe only work for individual readings, not global events as a whole. When you do these things, you always take it with a pinch of salt, because your life paths are forever changing depending on thr decisions that you make.

There are some very good readers here. One lady I saw told me things that only I knew about my parents and I made a conscious effort not to give her any information.

It all works on a persons energy/chi/chakra's etc.

I myself read tarot and the runes - I'm very out of practice though.

But people should not put their whole life's decisions on what they are told, they are merely short term. Six months down the line and things can change.

Now having readings done based on your date, time, place of birth with the stars alignments is an interesting one and is more likely to have a basic track of your life events.

I knew you were going to say that!

See, I am psychic...er, psycho...whatever!



Knight

I predict that tomorrow at around 10pm you will be talking utter garbage, possibly falling down and end up singing

Chocoholic wrote:I predict that tomorrow at around 10pm you will be talking utter garbage, possibly falling down and end up singing

That sounds familiar

I predict I will not remember Thursday night.

Chocs - the problem I have is that all results of personal readings (be they tarot cards, palm reading, tea leaves etc) can be reproduced using the non-psychic techniques known as cold reading or mentalism in the magical arena.

All the results can be reproduced - but I do believe that there are some that use the techniques unconciously, but many more use them cynically. The results are the same though. (They all make 'predictions' based on reading the current - they read people and use the information that is available - and note that only 7% of communication is verbal - what you say - IIRC).

But on the 'personal reading' part - I deliberately included the bit about Princess Diana to cover this point. Every year in the UK there are horoscopes produced that predit what is 'in the stars' for the stars - and the Royal Family is indeed one of those whose stars are read. Yet, to my knowledge, none of the astrologers predicted her death - indeed it would be informative to go back and look at the predictions for her made before the accident.

To me, horoscopes are a classic example of something that cannot work- you can't predict what everyone who were born in a few months of the year will face over the next day or so. Coincidentally I belong to a 'cohort study' that follows all the people born in the week that I was born. Every 5 years there is a survey that we take part in- and it shows over the years the range of experiences we've had - the %'s who have married, divorced, are religious, professions, education level, employment, political views etc are all surveyed and used to illustrate what Brits of my age think and do (compared to older and youger cohorts). If astrology worked, then we'd all share some characteristics - but this survey shows that across the range we vary enormously (and indeed the premise of the survey is that we represent a snap shot of those born in our year of birth).

That said, I do believe that those who believe in these techniques and get some value out of them are experiencing what they think is a real phenomenon. If it helps them, then I don't dismiss the value they get out of it.

But for me - it's just a branch of entertainment that I can reproduce. (I do a mean palm reading)

Cheers,
Shafique

If you believe in fate, or 'will of god' as you call it, then, by definition, you must also accept that it can be predicted. How this is done is anyone's guess.
I choose to dismiss it because I find the alternative depressing.
The sequence in Lost where Desmond could forsee Charlie's death, but could not prevent it comes to mind... or were they dead already?
Although I also understand how many people benefit from it.

Yeah specially the people doing the telling !

I am particularly talented at 'the laying on of hands', however my left cheek frequently gets red and sore from doing it!

I have also accurately predicted my own death, it will happen right at the end of my life.



Knight

benwj wrote:If you believe in fate, or 'will of god' as you call it, then, by definition, you must also accept that it can be predicted. How this is done is anyone's guess.

Those that believe in God tend to also believe that the future is not yet fully written - for otherwise there would be no point in praying (for it is all pre-destined). Muslims, for example, have the example of the people of Jonah in the Quran (he who was swallowed by the 'fish') - in the Quran it says that Jonah told the people that God had informed him that they would be punished for their crimes. The whole town repented and wailed and cried and prayed. God forgave them - and thus the future was changed.

But in another way, you are right - the Bible and Quran etc say that only God knows the future - and that one way of recognising a true Prophet (literally, as well as in the Divine sense) is to see whether their predictions come true (and if they are made in the name of God). This criteria is actually in the OT - Deut 18:20 (IIRC).

So for believers of the Bible and Quran - those claiming to predict the future by 'fortune telling' are charlatans. Indeed it was to test out this claim that I went and did my research into the art form - and it is still a hobby of mine (magic).

As for Lost - I know what you mean! At least the Islamic viewpoint of pre-destiny, fortune telling etc is less confusing than the plot of Lost.

cheers,
Shafique

But even if you could predict someone's death or how they would die, would you (be allowed to) tell them? Could that person then not try to avoid the fatal events? I'm thinking Final Destination here.

Fortune telling not only is "haram" in Islam (to be allowed in Dubai), but also is a pile of rubbish.

No one can predict what is going to happen in the future!!!

If so, fortune tellers would be billionaires by picking the right (winning) lottery numbers every time!!!!!!

shafique wrote:Surely if astrology, tarot cards, tea leaves, chicken bones etc etc worked, we'd be able to find some examples of headlines such as 'Psychic wins lottery' or 'Planes will fly into twin towers in September' (published before 9/11) etc.

To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who predicted that Princess Di would die when she did (and yet each year astrologers did predict what would happen to her and other celebrities), or that 9/11 would happen.

But then again - perhaps there are examples that I'm not aware of??

TJ - great minds...

So, no one here has any examples of fortune tellers hitting the mark in ways that can't be explained by cold reading techniques.

I think that gives the 'non-believers' more comfort than the 'believers' - but I suspect it won't shake the faith of the 'believers' (in fortune telling).

Cheers,
Shafique

Cross my palm with silver 'my dear', and I'll tell you ANYTHING you wish to hear.

LOL - it really doesn't work like that - too many variables.

Aah yes! I remember how it used to work, when the Gypsy women used to call door to door with baskets of home made clothes pegs made of firewood, knitted toilet roll covers and flowers, made of dyed wood shavings & privet twigs and other good luck charms and amulets to sell, where your Mother would receive a positive and glowing free reading if she purchased well and a free curse put upon the family if she didn’t, my Mother was so petrified of the Gypsies curse she would pay them to go away. You had then to keep the dog outside and lock everything away for the next couple of nights that was in view to the Gypsy woman as her secondary task was to case the joint for anything worth stealing! and then expect a visit from her husband if you had a drive or footpath that needed resurfacing with ‘some of the black stuff we’ve got left over from a job sorrr’

Aah the good old days!

Please note, the above content is not for the eyes of DDS as I fear it will only aggravate his xenophobia and cause him to make further derogatory comment.

Oh so I'm a xenophobe now because don't support Israeli Govt policy. Make up your minds will ya. So what is it. Holocaust denier, Zionist or a Xenophobe. Make up yer minds will ya ?

How but you sprinkle some of that wisdom on your posse member BM. Who clearly has a problem with British citizens of Asian origin, Muslims and the some of their attire.

No DDS, you’re confused again, Your Xenophobia is related to your recent comments regarding Limey’s, JBR Posse, English Banter, POHM’s and then there was your little vent;

contrary to your beliefs not every one speaks pom. Ask anyone who isn't one, who has been misfortunate enough to hang around listening to it. Specially when two geezers start havin' a go at it,

" Oh, mate I remember I was a just a young lad back in Auchtermuchty I use to love watching Alcock and Gander on telly while eating spotted d!ck sponge pudding, good ol' Beryl Reid. She was a bit daft eh, but always good for a laugh I reckon " ???????’

The other labels for you were made by others based on your previous statements, I’ve no doubt they will elaborate in time, However, I wouldn’t personally take anything seriously that was posted by that fool Gadfly, I would ban him or at best just ignore him.

Oh that hardly qualifies as xenophobic, slightly rascist at best. But just goes to show If I were xenophobic or didn't like the brits I wouldn't even know what a pom or spotted banana sponge pudding is. I doubt many non brits here even know what those are.

That kind of info only comes from close contact. Or I wouldn't have worked for the longest time in a industry which require long up and personel time on a daily basis with the brits and germans. Have you seen me bash brits regurlarly ? There are many here DK, Chocs, sage, Arnie to name a few you can ask them if I have ever show any dislike, xenophobia or bias towards the British people.

All nationalities are bashed here from time to time Indians, Pakistanis, Phillipinos, Americans, Emaratis etc etc. So I'm sorry your allegations are misplaced.

And like I said you never said anything about your mate in regards to "brits" which actually fits the more defenition of xeneophobia.

But hey what do I know I'm just a xenophobic holocaust deneying palestenian loving muslim zionist

desertdudeshj wrote:Oh so I'm a xenophobe now because don't support Israeli Govt policy. Make up your minds will ya. So what is it. Holocaust denier, Zionist or a Xenophobe. Make up yer minds will ya ?

How but you sprinkle some of that wisdom on your posse member BM. Who clearly has a problem with British citizens of Asian origin, Muslims and the some of their attire.

Well you are definately a halocaust denier, by your own admission.
You are definately not (100%) a Zionist, as I said in reply to that post, you are just a misguided harmless soul in my opinion.
The last time I looked I wasn't a member of any crew, isn't that for the playground? You may feel the need to be part of a posse LOL but I do not. I am more than happy to be on my own.

Yes I do have a problem with attire worn by foreigners in my country and people who become British Citizens at the drop of a hat. To clarify that it's not just Asians but any foreigners. Is that giving you more ammunition? You see BM at her most helpful! It's my country and therefore have a right to an opinion, just as you do in yours.

Bethsmum wrote:Well you are definately a halocaust denier, by your own admission.

For the second time I urge you to show me where ?

The second time? When was the first? I must have slept through that one. When I have a few minutes I'll trawl through your stuff and find it. I'll need a drink first.

-- Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.
quote]

There you go, and without having to be sedated.

Read through DDs post and can't find where he is denying the holocaust. By saying "they suffered a holocaust" is acknowleding that it happened. And using it as a comparison to what has happened (the holocaust) to what is happening in Palestine is acknowledgement, but that's just the way I read it.

Bethsmum wrote:The second time? When was the first? I must have slept through that one. When I have a few minutes I'll trawl through your stuff and find it. I'll need a drink first.

-- Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.
quote]

There you go, and without having to be sedated.

Again for a third time now, show me where I have denied the holocaust. And yes I stand by what I've said. That there are very many similarities between Gaza and starting of the holocaust. The Warsaw ghetto was not much unlike the gaza of today and eventually lead to the grave tragedy : The holocaust as we know it today.

And I also believe if there was no international pressure, free flow of information and zero condemnation It is not unthinkable juding from previous acts by the Israelis that it could escalate to a full blow genocide. It has happened in our times in places like Ruwanda and the former Yugolsavia.

I believe people like you, the Israeli govt and the jewish people across the globe vow never again. And i agree with that 100% and thats why it should stop before it goes any further.

and no SHAME ON YOU for being a liar and making false accusations.