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Bethsmum wrote:The IRA shold never ever take their seats in Parliament. They refuse to swear aliegance to the Queen and therefore should not participate in the Government of the UK. I would pay to have them wiped out.

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:07 am --

@DDS eh? What's a hand job got to do with anything ?

Pretty much like Israel wanting Palestine to swear their alligence to Israel I would think. But of course all those Palestinians would have to learn to speak Yiddish.

Mahathma Ghandi is also a terrorist !

RC - what has the IRA conquering and occupying England have to do with Chechnya? Oh, I get it - the English under occupation would be the Chechens in this situation?

I'm stilll interested to hear from BM if the English resistance against the US backed IRA occupation forces (IOF) would therefore also be terrorists if they objected to having parts of London declared as Irish?


Cheers
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:Mahathma Ghandi is also a terrorist !

Mahatma Gandhi was as much a terrorist as Florence Nightingale

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:51 pm --

shafique wrote:I'm stilll interested to hear from BM if the English resistance against the US backed IRA occupation forces (IOF) would therefore also be terrorists if they objected to having parts of London declared as Irish?

Cheers
Shafique

While I understand that discussions can often digress, why do you need to introduce the hypothetical? this is surreal!

The IRA were never backed by the Government of the US, it was an Irish-American charity that relied on public donation called NORAID or the Irish Northern Aid Committee and who on Earth are the IOF?

Take whatever hypothetical answer you wish, to your hypothetical question what does it really matter?

Well BM at-least no one ever said you were unbiased!!! Jewish policies (lobbyists, bankers, media) world over have run this planet into doom. Ever read Jewish media BM? They chastise the west, over their lack of liberty. They interfere in all aspects of public policy. And yet when it comes to Israel, that country is allowed to be a secular but Jewish state? Isn't that hypocrisy? And since when was Jewish an ethnicity? Have you seen popular Jewish media ever criticizing the Israeli government? Is this all a matter of coincidence? I don't know. Growing up I was thought to look at it from a uni-dimensional perspective, now I'm asking questions!!!

Then you say that you can't abide with freedom fighters like the PLO, IRA etc etc? Lol and what is the British Army, aren't they freedom fighters too? Just because they're in uniform gives them validity? What utter crap!!!

Now I don't say that I condone the killing of Jews decades ago. But for how much longer are we gonna dwell on the past? Especially when the future is much more scary. Look at today BM, and worry about tomorrow. That's all that counts.

You know what's really funny is that none debating this issue are directly involved in this conflict. Agreed BM has a personal side to the story so she's forgiven but the rest of you?? Go feed your families, teach them values, go work do something productive that'll do this world so much more good rather then choosing to be brainwashed by media propaganda on all sides.

Probably one of the best post I've read on this forum,

Dillon wrote:Talk about ‘The blind leading the Blind’

Anyone who is, or has ever been involved in Conflict Resolution should know their Stakeholder Core Values;

Only Deal with verifiable facts.
Have Free and informed choices.
Have an Internal commitment.
Be non-judgmental.
Set and adhere to the Ground Rules.

I wonder how many of the contributors here actually consider themselves a ‘Peacekeeper’ or would in fact admit to being an ‘Activist’?

You can’t post one sided propaganda material on a Community Forum and then claim to remain unbiased and sit happily on the fence, You can’t just disregard thousands of Years of History just because it may suit your particular one sided bigoted views.

If however, the general consensus of opinion is for a more peaceful existence then I would suggest people stopped the propagation of biased and inflammatory propaganda and allowed the real victims of this conflict to get on with their own peace process.

Dillon wrote:The IRA were never backed by the Government of the US, it was an Irish-American charity that relied on public donation called NORAID or the Irish Northern Aid Committee and who on Earth are the IOF?

I can confirm that Dillon. I lived in a predominately Irish neighborhood, but alot of the Irish weren't exactly Irish-American as they overstayed their visas. Being there was a large Irish community every other store on the avenues was a bar. I remember one bar inparticular where there was a sign in the back about donations for the IRA. (I was too young at the time to take an interest in what the IRA was as I was planning my weekends!!!). The IRA received huge support from Irish communities all over the US.

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:34 pm --

I spent some time today reading about the history of Israel and Palestine. I guess it's human nature to focus on the current events, but not necessarily what were the circumstances that lead to the current events. Regarding freedom fighters - before there was an Israeli army there were Jewish freedom fighters. The creation of the army legitimatized the freedom fighters.

The history of how this conflict between Israel and Palestine came about is very interesting and some reading is required to understand it with regard to religion, territory, and the nations that were involved.

Bora Bora wrote:

Dillon wrote:The IRA were never backed by the Government of the US, it was an Irish-American charity that relied on public donation called NORAID or the Irish Northern Aid Committee and who on Earth are the IOF?

I can confirm that Dillon. I lived in a predominately Irish neighborhood, but alot of the Irish weren't exactly Irish-American as they overstayed their visas. Being there was a large Irish community every other store on the avenues was a bar. I remember one bar inparticular where there was a sign in the back about donations for the IRA. (I was too young at the time to take an interest in what the IRA was as I was planning my weekends!!!). The IRA received huge support from Irish communities all over the US.

Until September 2001, immediately after the terrorist attacks in the USA the funding of the IRA, a terrorist organisation, via NORAID dried up almost overnight, this prompted Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA to embark on a propaganda tour of the US deploring the shameful cowardly terrorist actions against the US on 11th September, I understand he wasn’t very well received and the funding from NORAID dwindled into insignificance.

Dillon wrote:Until September 2001, immediately after the terrorist attacks in the USA the funding of the IRA, a terrorist organisation, via NORAID dried up almost overnight, this prompted Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA to embark on a propaganda tour of the US deploring the shameful cowardly terrorist actions against the US on 11th September, I understand he wasn’t very well received and the funding from NORAID dwindled into insignificance.

I had no idea that it went on for so long. I'm talking back some time ago when they probably weren't even set up as legal "organizations" per se. As for the IRA being a "terrorist organization", I guess that's what people are called when they don't wear a uniform and being part of a "legitimate army".

My old neighborhood went through such a drastic change over the past couple of decades. I guess the donations that they are seeing are for a different cause? Falafel anyone?

yea, Falafel for me.... and red tea please with some mint would be highly appreciated....
I am just confused why people insist on not seeing that, Palestinian asking their land...not for a lala land or for Israel help...

And under the current circumstances they aren't capable of having an army, so I am not wondering why groups like Hamas exist,

People who are blaming Palestinians, would you please suggest another solution for them?

yalla Kalas, no more politics for me tonight, happy weekend.

Yella!!! I have your tea!!!!

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:16 pm --

Mahmoud04 wrote:People who are blaming Palestinians, would you please suggest another solution for them?

You are asking the wrong people Mahmoud. You aren't going to like most of the answers. Mesh???

desertdudeshj wrote:Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:22 pm --

@MCL The British Army are not 'freedom fighters'. They are a well trained, disciplined force, not some bunch of ragheads firing guns into the air indiscriminately. Do grow up and talk sensibly.

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:28 pm --

@Shafique, I'm sorry but I'm not following you at all now. I think you need to sack which ever version of Wikipedia you are using as far as the Irish problem. The British Army did not invade Ireland but were deployed as peace keepers. They were welcomed by the Catholics at that time. The US government did not bankroll the IRA. Wherever did you get that notion? And what's with the american mom statement and the IOF? Have you been on the wacky backy again?

Gee BM, what would your Emirati friends think of you calling Arabs "ragheads"?

I won't tell him if you don't

Bethsmum wrote:I won't tell him if you don't

I already told them....

Find a place to hide!!

BTW, if Arab men are called ragheads, what do they call Arab women? Black Ninjas??

You're a colorful piece of work, BM. I think I'm beginning to like you!!!

Bethsmum wrote:Are you seriously comparing what is going on with the Palestinians to the Holocaust? What you need is a reality trip to Auswitz, Belsen or any of the other camps. What a totally ridiculous thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes I am making that comparison, they are already moving in that direction, They have effectively turned Gazza into a prison/ghetto, talking about sending the Arab Israelis over to Palestine . And I'm sure if there wasn't immense outside pressure they would have come would have come up with their own final solution to the palestenian problem. We have already seen they are capable of such brutality in campaigns like Operation cast lead. The days when Israel could use the holocuast guilt trip get out of jail free card are long gone.

And thats what I meant just because you suffered a holocaust does entitle you to one free genocide of you own

Oh and I should be ashamed of myself, I think you need to reread this thread with the kind of twisted logic, opinions and views you have your the one who should raking a good long hard look at yourself.

desertdudeshj wrote:
Yes I am making that comparison, they are already moving in that direction, They have effectively turned Gazza into a prison/ghetto, talking about sending the Arab Israelis over to Palestine . And I'm sure if there wasn't immense outside pressure they would have come would have come up with their own final solution to the palestenian problem. We have already seen they are capable of such brutality in campaigns like Operation cast lead. The days when Israel could use the holocuast guilt trip get out of jail free card are long gone.

And thats what I meant just because you suffered a holocaust does entitle you to one free genocide of you own

Oh and I should be ashamed of myself, I think you need to reread this thread with the kind of twisted logic, opinions and views you have your the one who should raking a good long hard look at yourself.

You’ve absolutely no idea what you’re talking about DD, you really do need to get a little more background on the Nazi Ghetto’s, Final Solution and Holocaust being referenced in this thread before you start accusations of others attempting the same.

BM didn’t suffer in the Holocaust she experienced part of it as did most Europeans, and as for your ‘One free Genocide’ theory, I’ve never heard anything as ridiculous and pathetic in my life, just think DD how many people you may actually be offending with such an irrational statement?

Dillon wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:

shafique wrote:I'm stilll interested to hear from BM if the English resistance against the US backed IRA occupation forces (IOF) would therefore also be terrorists if they objected to having parts of London declared as Irish?

Cheers
Shafique

While I understand that discussions can often digress, why do you need to introduce the hypothetical? this is surreal!

The IRA were never backed by the Government of the US, it was an Irish-American charity that relied on public donation called NORAID or the Irish Northern Aid Committee and who on Earth are the IOF?

Take whatever hypothetical answer you wish, to your hypothetical question what does it really matter?

Not sure why you're afraid of BM answering this simple hypothetical - if the IRA were backed by a superpower (let's call it the Unified States of Amusements, for example) and got into power totally in Ireland and then chose to invade England on the grounds that the Celts used to live there - why is it inappropriate to ask whether the English resistance to this Irish invasion would also be termed 'terrorists' by BM?

It's a valid hypothetical - for a number of people have wondered at the categoric statement that attacks by people not in uniform against armies in uniform are all terrorists (as in occupied Palestine, South Africa and indeed in England).

It's a hypothetical - I don't think the US will be silly enough to back the Irish in their territorial aspirations against Middle England.

Your defensiveness at this hypothetical speaks volumes though.. but let me read through the rest of the posts and see whether BM would consider English resistance against IRA invasion as 'terrorism' or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

BM - my history books do tell me that Ireland was one of (if not the) first colonies of England.

However, my scenario is not based on what may happen or based on the US government actually supporting an invasion, but rather to check that your view that any resistance against an invading army by non-uniformed fighters is terrorism.

You have stated you would not object to IRA politicians being killed (Sinn Fein, in this case) - so I'm asking you whether you'd really call an English resistance to an IRA invasion of England as terrorism (as they could argue that the Celts lived in England before the Angles, Romans etc drove them out) or whether you'd think the resistance to invasion was not terrorism.

I did ask you previously whether you thought the actual French Resistance in WWII were terrorists, but you side-stepped that question by saying you'd only comment on issues you were familiar with - and cited the IRA as an example. I'm just seeing whether your argument about terrorists only applies to non-white or non-British resistance to armed oppressors, or is really general (i.e. if you are consistent, you'd say:

"Yes Shafique, if (in some bizaare future) the Irish invaded with the aid of a foreign power, defeated the British army and took my land on the pretext that their ancestors once lived in England, and if non-uniformed Englishmen and women fought back - the Englishmen and women would be terrorists."

I fully understand that Dillon does not want you to answer this hypothetical.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dear Shafique, ‘Afraid, defensive, Dillon does not want’ ? You’re not attempting to drag me into this pointless hypothetical discussion of yours I hope. You will come to realise that I speak for and on behalf of no other than myself, also that if BM has an opinion, she will share that opinion with all, regardless of what anyone else may wish for.

Regarding the rest of your hypothetical thoughts and opinions, I’m more than happy to let you continue in your own little hypothetical world and resolve your own little hypothetical outcomes, I hope the best man wins!

Shafique, you have side stepped my question as to have you been on the wacky backy again?

BM - why avoid the question? (I totally agree - you'd have to be smoking something to call all those fighting against an occupying force 'terrorists, because they are cowards and won't wear uniforms' - but I'm not the one who thinks this).

Would you, or would you not, consider English resistance to an Irish invaders (or let's take the real example of French Resistance to Nazi occupation) as terrorists?

I'm quite clear, the French resistance (real) was valid. Palestinian resistance against occupation of land captured in 1967 is valid. English resistance to a hypothetical invasion by the IRA would also be valid. (See what I did there?


Anyway, my suspicion is that if the Irish did invade, you'd be the first one egging on your husband etc to resist the invaders. You've already said you're happy to have ex-IRA people in power killed. (But perhaps I'm wrong and you'll oppose opposition to the invaders?)

In terms of your initial views about 'Muslims only seeing their religion' when it comes to Palestine - can I ask you whether you had 'only sympathy' for the IDF lady who said 'I would gladly kill Arabs, even slaughter them'
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/i- ... m-1.309031

This shocked many Israelis and most posters here - but is this hatred of hers understandable to you? If she said 'IRA' would you applaud?

----

Dillon - the smiley at the end of the post to BM was there for a reason. You are the one who asked me about my hypothetical question to BM... so it's strange that you think I'm trying to drag you into it (I'm not).

I'm actually more interested in the real world where French resistance fighters, Mandela etc are seen as acting legitimately against occupying forces and not as blanket terrorists (when they don't attack civilians, of course). I'm sure you know that George Washington WAS indeed viewed as a terrorist for rebelling against the colonial authority - that doesn't need a hypothetical construct, does it?

Anyway - I'm only labouring the point because it is a very novel thing to come across a poster who categorically states the views BM has expressed. Given it is unusual - I'd just like to make sure I'm not misreading what has been posted.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Would you, or would you not, consider English resistance to an Irish invaders as terrorists?

He-he, The things are quite opposite but there is no international support except from overseas diaspora. To be frank after that long-time occupation it's funny when somebody remembers "DDR".

The point of the mum is very close to the point of Wermacht in WWII, who treated differently Soviet partisans depend on whether they did or didn't wear uniform. The latter were treated as thugs and killed immediately the former were sent to POW camps even though all of them fought abreast. I have no idea what kind of uniform IRA should wear to be recognizable by English troops: probably green hat with shamrok and be always utter drunk.

shafique wrote:
Dillon - the smiley at the end of the post to BM was there for a reason. You are the one who asked me about my hypothetical question to BM... so it's strange that you think I'm trying to drag you into it (I'm not).

I'm actually more interested in the real world where French resistance fighters, Mandela etc are seen as acting legitimately against occupying forces and not as blanket terrorists (when they don't attack civilians, of course). I'm sure you know that George Washington WAS indeed viewed as a terrorist for rebelling against the colonial authority - that doesn't need a hypothetical construct, does it?

Anyway - I'm only labouring the point because it is a very novel thing to come across a poster who categorically states the views BM has expressed. Given it is unusual - I'd just like to make sure I'm not misreading what has been posted.

Cheers,
Shafique

Then I suggest you keep your questions independent, in the real world and not some invented scenario, where it would appear you’re attempting to manipulate the extraction of a specific answer, as I said earlier on this thread, “Once a terrorist not always a terrorist it would appear… And you’re right, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter but you can’t always apply that and every analogy to every given situation, there are always mitigating circumstances!” and here’s my smiley face,

Thanks Dillon - I'm sure you're advice is well meaning. I am indeed trying to extract a specific answer - see the quote below and you'll understand why.

I only resorted to the hypothetical when my real world example (French Resistance, Irgun terrorists becoming politicians) didn't produce an answer, and BM opened the door by stating she would celebrate the killings of the two Irish Republican politicians.

I totally agree about mitigating circumstances and exceptions - and this is exactly what I'm exploring, why BM doesn't seem to have any exceptions in her views when it comes to who is a terrorist:

Bethsmum wrote:. Now you might understand why I have an aversion to 'freedom fighters'. The PLO, Hammas and whoever else are no better than the IRA. I can't abide those who 'fight' under cover, faces covered and not having the guts to wear a uniform. To me the IDF are a proper army, something I can identify with, whereas Hammas are just a bunch of cowards, who should be exterminated like the vermin they are.

I'm trying to explore whether the the 'whoever else' who 'fight' under cover - would also apply to the French resistance or a hypothetical English resistance.

I certainly would not be allowed to get away with posting something like that about say, Jews or Israelis - all the fanbois will be quoting incessantly and citing it as proof all Muslims were indeed plotting to take over the world, kill kittens and such like - so I think it quite fair to ask about the quote from BM (and this is only something she can answer).

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:
He-he, The things are quite opposite but there is no international support except from overseas diaspora. To be frank after that long-time occupation it's funny when somebody remembers "DDR".

The point of the mum is very close to the point of Wermacht in WWII, who treated differently Soviet partisans depend on whether they did or didn't wear uniform. The latter were treated as thugs and killed immediately the former were sent to POW camps even though all of them fought abreast. I have no idea what kind of uniform IRA should wear to be recognizable by English troops: probably green hat with shamrok and be always utter drunk.

Aah, forgive the delay my friend, the penny has just dropped! You’re referring to me of course and my earlier comments regarding the Russian occupation of East Germany “DDR”.

Well I think you need to brush up on your history of the relationship between England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales before you make any more rash statements regarding the ‘Occupation’ of Northern Ireland (that was your meaning wasn't it?) and the uniform a terrorist organisation should wear for recognition. Let me know when you’re ready?

-- Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:36 pm --

shafique wrote:Thanks Dillon - I'm sure you're advice is well meaning. I am indeed trying to extract a specific answer - see the quote below and you'll understand why...

I certainly would not be allowed to get away with posting something like that about say, Jews or Israelis - all the fanbois will be quoting incessantly and citing it as proof all Muslims were indeed plotting to take over the world, kill kittens and such like - so I think it quite fair to ask about the quote from BM (and this is only something she can answer).

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, I understand too well what’s happening, just because others on the Forum are too PC and pedantic in their interpretations, comments and views doesn’t mean you have to behave in the same manner?

This is a public forum not the Spanish Inquisition

You have questions for BM, you’ve asked them, She has the choice whether to answer them or not, I personally believe there are more important issues for the weekend!

Once more, I'm not your friend, sunshine.

Secondary, why should I get deeper to that relationship as it's enough for you to drop only one example about East Germany to "prove" your point?

Thirdly, my comment was not to you but to Sir Shafique, who was very keen in independence of kind Muzlems in Chechnja but pretty happy with similar situation in NI.

Dillon - don't you think it is a bit weird for us to be discussing whether BM has a choice over whether to clarify what she meant in the quote above? I think it is weird.

Whilst you may think my gentle questions are the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition - may I still respectfully reserve the right to ask them? To my mind, I'm asking them exactly BECAUSE this is a public forum - to clarify whether what was written (about IRA, Hamas, Mandela) is actually a general statement or whether if the resistance fighters are English (or French) then they are 'freedom fighters' after all.


RC - when did I write that I was pro-Chechen independence? (Let alone pro-Chechen rebels?) You're not stereotyping all Muslims again are you?

(Perhaps I did write something that led you to believe that - if so, I'd like to read it. If you ask me about my views about separatists in Chechnya, Ossetia, Tripuram, Timor etc I'll give you specific answers - but only after I've done at least some research . But that is for another thread. )

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:
Yes I am making that comparison, they are already moving in that direction, They have effectively turned Gazza into a prison/ghetto, talking about sending the Arab Israelis over to Palestine . And I'm sure if there wasn't immense outside pressure they would have come would have come up with their own final solution to the palestenian problem. We have already seen they are capable of such brutality in campaigns like Operation cast lead. The days when Israel could use the holocuast guilt trip get out of jail free card are long gone.

And thats what I meant just because you suffered a holocaust does entitle you to one free genocide of you own

Oh and I should be ashamed of myself, I think you need to reread this thread with the kind of twisted logic, opinions and views you have your the one who should raking a good long hard look at yourself.

You’ve absolutely no idea what you’re talking about DD, you really do need to get a little more background on the Nazi Ghetto’s, Final Solution and Holocaust being referenced in this thread before you start accusations of others attempting the same.

BM didn’t suffer in the Holocaust she experienced part of it as did most Europeans, and as for your ‘One free Genocide’ theory, I’ve never heard anything as ridiculous and pathetic in my life, just think DD how many people you may actually be offending with such an irrational statement?

LOL, I see I've stepped on some raw nerves here. How many people have been offended ? Just you and your chum BM. Sometimes you need to go to the extreme to knock sense into someone and things are not always as black and white as you would like them to be.

All the greatest tragedies in human history start of with small steps. For the holocaust it was first denoucingand demonizing the jews and blaming them for all of the reichs problems, then herding them into the segerated areas in very poor living standards in virtual prisons . And thats whats happening in Palestine and Gazza so the comparisons stays valid. Just because it might offened your sensiblities does not mean it isn't.

desertdudeshj wrote:All the greatest tragedies in human history start of with small steps. For the holocaust it was first denoucingand demonizing the jews and blaming them for all of the reichs problems, then herding them into the segerated areas in very poor living standards .

As far as Styron (not the greatest amirer of Jews) wrote they sent most of them directly to the gas-chambers (in Auschvitz) after recognizing their nationality at the beginning and only at the end of war used as workforce on German plants.

It was a problem for Nazi to kill so huge mass of people at so short period.

desertdudeshj wrote:
LOL, I see I've stepped on some raw nerves here. How many people have been offended ? Just you and your chum BM. Sometimes you need to go to the extreme to knock sense into someone and things are not always as black and white as you would like them to be.

All the greatest tragedies in human history start of with small steps. For the holocaust it was first denoucingand demonizing the jews and blaming them for all of the reichs problems, then herding them into the segerated areas in very poor living standards in virtual prisons . And thats whats happening in Palestine and Gazza so the comparisons stays valid. Just because it might offened your sensiblities does not mean it isn't.

DD, A little premature to be able to claim to have knocked some sense into anyone just yet my friend, you need to understand the raw nerves you’re stepping on, and offence you’re causing, is to the thousands of Jews who suffered the real holocaust. I’ve suggested once you need to do a little more research, as they say ‘you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink’