Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Talk about ‘The blind leading the Blind’

Anyone who is, or has ever been involved in Conflict Resolution should know their Stakeholder Core Values;

Only Deal with verifiable facts.
Have Free and informed choices.
Have an Internal commitment.
Be non-judgmental.
Set and adhere to the Ground Rules.

I wonder how many of the contributors here actually consider themselves a ‘Peacekeeper’ or would in fact admit to being an ‘Activist’?

The Arab-Israeli conflict in the Middle East is no different to any other conflict in any other part of the world, it has history, it has Religious and Political connotations.

Warring parties have in the past and will unfortunately, continue in the future to attack and defend themselves from their perceived enemies, by whatever means they deem necessary and they will find reason to justify every action during that conflict, however horrific they may appear to any third party, History has repeated this time and time again.

Forgive, but do not Forget. Alexander Pope wrote the following verse;

"Ah ne'er so dire a Thirst of Glory boast,
Nor in the Critick let the Man be lost!
Good-Nature and Good-Sense must ever join,
To err is human, to forgive divine.”

Forgiveness is misunderstood in this context, to Forgive is nothing more than letting go, in your own mind, of the anger and hurt that you feel. It is completely internal to you, it does NOT mean that what the offending party did was OK. Furthermore, it does NOT mean that you have to put yourself at risk of the same treatment again, Forgiveness in this sense puts YOU in control of the situation. Typically when you’re hurt, it translates to you being a victim, and remaining a victim is never a good place to stay.

When you forgive, you’re really saying that you won’t trouble your own mind anymore with what happened, it isn’t “OK” it should never be a case of “Oh, just forget it” injured parties should let it be known to all, exactly how they feel.

But do not forget, you’re not expected to forget, remembering how you felt you were made a victim will help you in your efforts never to let it happen again, how can anyone ever forget the atrocities of War, Forgive but do not Forget.

You can’t post one sided propaganda material on a Community Forum and then claim to remain unbiased and sit happily on the fence, You can’t just disregard thousands of Years of History just because it may suit your particular one sided bigoted views. I really don’t understand how some people believe this constant “look what they’ve done now rhetoric” is intended to help either, relationships here on DF or indeed the endemic people of that particular region?

If all you want to achieve is perpetuation of the tit-for-tat fighting that is currently happening, then please accept my apologies for interrupting this pointless and acrimonious conversation and continue. If however, the general consensus of opinion is for a more peaceful existence then I would suggest people stopped the propagation of biased and inflammatory propaganda and allowed the real victims of this conflict to get on with their own peace process.

I agree partially with your holier than thou post and thats what everybody wants, peace but the real victims don't have any voice on both sides of this conflict and history has show neither of them is capable of peace if left to their own devices. And there can never be peace when only one side holds all the cards. Somebody somewhere who has no vested intrest in this other than just peace to force these parties to come to an agreement if not on their terms then somebody else's.

The ordinary person in this or anyother conflict for that matter does not care about the politics all he wants is peace, security and means to etch out living for his family. But what your basically are saying just leave everybody alone and let them sort out their own mess. This sounds very hypocritcal in these times when there are currently two wars going on in the region.

Peace is achievable by anyone who wants it bad enough, too many people are politically motivated and too many want retribution, you cannot ‘force’ people to the peace table, there has to be ‘An Internal Commitment’ I’m not suggesting they should be ‘left alone to sort out their own mess’ I’m saying;

“You can’t post one sided propaganda material on a Community Forum and then claim to remain unbiased and sit happily on the fence, You can’t just disregard thousands of Years of History just because it may suit your particular one sided bigoted views. I really don’t understand how some people believe this constant “look what they’ve done now rhetoric” is intended to help either, relationships here on DF or indeed the endemic people of that particular region?”

Well the orginal post was a bit one sided aswell as Mahmouds that I will agree to. But I dont see anything me, BB or shaf posted as one sided bigoted propaganda, unless proved otherwise.

BM on the the hand you could say has one sided views. Shaf ( although I'm sure he can speak for himself ) or I atleast have acknowledged and condemn attrocities on both sides and provided the rationale and reasoning behind my opinions, which on BM's side is just that she was caught on the wrong end once and no further explinations are given.

I don’t think it’s necessary for you to attempt to explain to me, what you believe any third party’s thoughts may or may not be, I, like any other on this Forum consider myself more than capable of forming my own opinions on such matters, and I’m happy that you will sleep peacefully at night in the belief that you weren’t responsible for any of the above,

Dillon, this isn't about arguing, it's more about debating. If I don't see something the way someone sees it does that make me "biased"? If I agreed with BM, and choose to see her side, would that make me correct?

I can see what is happening on both sides. As you said, you have to internally want peace, and to reach it there must be give and take. In this case, Israel wants to take land that they have illegally taken - they have OCCUPIED land that belongs to Palestinians. Palestinians want back the land that was taken from them. Is that so wrong?? Palestinians want their own "country" and capital, not live under the shadow of Israel, the same way Israel wants to be recognized, not only by Palestine, but other surrounding countries. The demands on Israel's side of the table is by far greater than those of the Palestinians.

Let's say that you own 100 acres of farm land and one day you make the rounds to check your land and find that your neighbor has erected fencing encroaching on your land. You confront him and he tells you that he believes that it belongs to him and has hence "occupied" your land. You fight with him and then one day you will wake up and find the fence had been moved deeper onto your land and your neighbor hired people to "protect" what he deems is his land. There was a stream that was shared by both of you, but he decides to cut off your water supply. He has taken part of your farming land or destroyed your crops - a source of food and income for you. Illegal, right? The difference is is that you could take the matter to a court and bring a suit to regain your property as well as loss of income and recover the damage to your crops. You show documentation evidencing that in fact that it is your land. Palestinians also possessed documentation proving that land that was taken was indeed legally theirs. But who is the judge and jury in that case: Israel.

In my opinion, BMs view comes from an emotional place, which I can understand as it is coming from her own experience. As I said to her earlier, she was in the wrong place and the wrong time. I don't believe that she and her family were a "target". DD and I are coming from a rational place.

I resent you accusing me of being biased. If I was biased, I would have nothing to do with Jews. On the contrary, I have very good Jewish friends, worked for very nice Jewish people, and do sympathize for those Jews who suffer at the hands of the will of their own government, the same way I hold sympathy for Palestinians who are in the same situation.

When you talk about the blind leading the blind, each government is blinded by what they want, not what they need to do to achieve peace, and unfortunately citizens on both sides are taken in by the government and act on the governments behalf.

Just like idiots who bash me because I'm American because of what America did in Iraq. Hello!!! my government is responsible, not me.

Dillon, it's a while since I was suitably chastised.

Was it good for you?

-- Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:28 pm --

Bora Bora wrote:Dillon, this isn't about arguing, it's more about debating. If I don't see something the way someone sees it does that make me "biased"? If I agreed with BM, and choose to see her side, would that make me correct?
etc, ...

Just like idiots who bash me because I'm American because of what America did in Iraq. Hello!!! my government is responsible, not me.

Frankly Bora, I’ve heard it all before, it’s been debated to death by Politicians, Intellectuals and road sweepers alike, the issues go far deeper than the current accusations of land grabbing and much further back than the 1967 Arab Israeli borders.

I guess you and DD will have to wait for confirmation from BM whether your assumptions are correct regarding her ‘Emotional place’ and whether she was irrational or the intended target or not? and my comments on biased views were aimed at those displaying exactly that, having an opinion and sticking to it is one thing, having an opinion and then claiming to sit on the fence is quite another!

You have an interesting interpretation on my Blind leading the Blind statement, although it wasn’t mine! And you need to know that Idiots don’t bash you for what Americans did in Iraq, it’s just that well you know, you’re American!

Yes thank you Dillon, most enjoyable

Dillon wrote:Frankly Bora, I’ve heard it all before, it’s been debated to death by Politicians, Intellectuals and road sweepers alike, the issues go far deeper than the current accusations of land grabbing and much further back than the 1967 Arab Israeli borders.

I guess you and DD will have to wait for confirmation from BM whether your assumptions are correct regarding her ‘Emotional place’ and whether she was irrational or the intended target or not? and my comments on biased views were aimed at those displaying exactly that, having an opinion and sticking to it is one thing, having an opinion and then claiming to sit on the fence is quite another!

You have an interesting interpretation on my Blind leading the Blind statement, although it wasn’t mine! And you need to know that Idiots don’t bash you for what Americans did in Iraq, it’s just that well you know, you’re American!

Here's an idea Dillon - since you have heard it all before - why don't you just ignore this thread?? It seems that you aren't getting the entertainment value that you may be seeking. If the "discussions" or "debates" that take place don't suit you, well - as I've told you a few times - move on.

As for BM and me, well we seem to be getting on - does that stress you a bit??? BTW, I really don't think you need to speak for BM - she's very capable of taking a stand for herself. Great that you're her buddy, but I don't think she's needs a crutch.

We all know that the issues go beyond land and more Dillon, so you divulging that bit of info wasn't necessary, or in your mind did you think that you would enlighten us to something that we weren't aware of?

As for your swipe at me, well, I'm going to pass on that for the simple fact that allthough you can present a good argument, you never disappoint in showing that you can also be a sad donkey.

So far in all your posts you have shown yourself to be something of a miserable individual who can't join a discussion and keep it civil or reasonable. Hope life gets better for you and something good happens to cheer you up.

Personally, if you were on fire and there was no water around I wouldn' p*$$ on you to put the flames out - regardless of your nationality.

Bora wash your mouth out, Ignore YOU! you should know Bora I see you as the Mummy Bear of Dubai Forums, that soft cuddly Motherly figure who everybody looks for in times of trouble and stress!

Well I would concur with your opinion that BM can speak for herself Bora, exactly as I stated in my earlier post, ‘I guess you and DD will have to wait for confirmation from BM’ so which part of that statement didn’t you understand?

And you should know that you cheer me up no end every time I read your illuminating and humorous posts, Bye for now, Hee Haw, Hee Haw

Oh Bora I do have to say that in no way is Dillon the individual you paint. Boring and miserable? No way! A donkey? Er I couldn't possibly comment LOL Ezekiel chapter 23 v 11_21

Bethsmum wrote:Oh Bora I do have to say that in no way is Dillon the individual you paint. Boring and miserable? No way! A donkey? Er I couldn't possibly comment LOL Ezekiel chapter 23 v 11_21

Not boring BM, obnoxious is more like it. As for the individual I "paint", well I'm working with what I "see", until he can prove otherwise.

-- Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:47 pm --

Dillon wrote:Bora wash your mouth out, Ignore YOU! you should know Bora I see you as the Mummy Bear of Dubai Forums, that soft cuddly Motherly figure who everybody looks for in times of trouble and stress!

Well I would concur with your opinion that BM can speak for herself Bora, exactly as I stated in my earlier post, ‘I guess you and DD will have to wait for confirmation from BM’ so which part of that statement didn’t you understand?

And you should know that you cheer me up no end every time I read your illuminating and humorous posts, Bye for now, Hee Haw, Hee Haw

You aren't even close in describing me Dillon. You would be quite surprised if you met me. Nothing "soft and cuddly, Motherly - LOL. But, at least you see me in a better light than I (and possibly others) see you.

Yes Dear...

Why talk about the Iz Vs Pal issue when we have our own flare ups happening here...again !

Well I suppose it takes me to enlighten you a bit on the circumstances which have lead me to take the stance I have.
My family has a very strong military background, my grandfather was in the British army, both my parents were in the Royal Air Force and my first husband was in the army also.
My grandfather was the liberating sargeant major (serving with the Durham Light Infantry) into Bergen Belsen POW camp in northern Germany in the spring of 1945. I remember, quite vividly, the stories he told me of what he found there and the absolutely appalling suffering the Jews, and others, went through at the hands of the Third Reich. I'm afraid the tales of 20000 dead bodies and 50000 starving and diseased prisoners has left a lasting impression on me. He gave me a pair of wedding rings from a Jewish couple who had buried them rather than let the Germans have them. I still have them to this day. He told me he killed lots of Jewish prisoners with kindness, by feeding them, they passed away in front of him as they just couldn't digest the food he gave them. My mother says he was never the same at the end of the war, I suppose it would be diagnosed as post traumatic stress disorder now. So you see in my mind the Jews have been persecuted for years and if their Government is hell bent on never, ever letting the likes of this happen again then who can blame them?
My husbands regiment was based in Northern Ireland in the 1970's, a very troubled place in those days. We were there for nearly two years. Unfortunately there was an incident and a person very close to me was killed. It changed my life forever. Now you might understand why I have an aversion to 'freedom fighters'. The PLO, Hammas and whoever else are no better than the IRA. I can't abide those who 'fight' under cover, faces covered and not having the guts to wear a uniform. To me the IDF are a proper army, something I can identify with, whereas Hammas are just a bunch of cowards, who should be exterminated like the vermin they are.
I don't dwell on the past and hardly think of it now.
Bora, please don't refer to Dillon as my crutch, I don't need or have one. But if i did, I can assure you he would be at the top of my list as he is as solid as a rock.

Here is my two cents in brief:

The Israeli Palestinian problem is really too complicated with lots of thorny issues, and we may never, ever see a resolution to this conflict -- at least, not in our lifetime.

Both sides have, sadly, missed excellent opportunities to make peace in the past (during previous peace talks) due to the arrogance of the Israelis and the stupidity of the Palestinians.

No peace will ever prevail in the Middle East with the current attitudes and actions on both sides. Israel should stop its collective punishment of all Palestinians and Hamas should stop throwing pointless rockets and doing crazy suicide missions in Israel.

In other words, Israel should stop acting like a raging bull and the Palestinians should realize that that they’ll never get what they want, and they had better swallow their pride and be more compromising and pragmatic.

Fascinating thread this is.

BM - a very moving and personal story - thanks for sharing.

I'd be very intrigued to hear your views on two related issues - one about NI and one about terrorist freedom fighters.

Firstly - what are your views about Martin McGuinness being in power now (he was an IRA commander), and similarly Gerry Adams? Weren't the IRA vermin who should be exterminated?

Your military family will therefore be aware of the first modern day terrorist attacks which took place in Palestine in the 40's when British troops were tortured, murdered and their bodied booby trapped? And the big one was the King David hotel bombing.

The terrorists managed to win independence and one leader went on to be PM.

What do your military menfolk think of the Irgun terrorists who blew up Brit soldiers?


Cheers
Shafique

Not to forget the USS Liberty. And yes I would also thank BM for sharing thats story with us aswell, very interesting indeed.

But I guess that my crude sarcasm hold true then. Since they suffered a holocaust they are entitled to one free genocide !? Making sure they never have to suffer like that again does not give them the right to put others through the same. Thats flawed logic if you ask me, kinda like ,I was abused as a child so thats why I am a serial killer today. A insanity defence.

TJ is on to something here but until that happens the international community needs to keep on pressurizing both sides. If the US just closes its dole tap on Israel ( which makes a major part of Israels budget ) and the Arabs also stop suporting and aiding the Palestenians, until these both sort it out, this way I think a solution would be reached very fast.

And guess there is a whole another debate in this thread aswell. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Like the Indian freedom fighters labeled patriots by the Indians and terrorist and rebels by the British. The Afghan Mujahideen rebels to the USSR army but freedom fighters to the rest. So who's right ?

I'm afraid that anyone fighting outside a regular army is a terrorist to me.
As far as I am concerned Nelson Mendela was a terrorist.

The IRA shold never ever take their seats in Parliament. They refuse to swear aliegance to the Queen and therefore should not participate in the Government of the UK. I would pay to have them wiped out.

-- Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:07 am --

@DDS eh? What's a hand job got to do with anything ?

Sorry to say this, BM, but it seems to me that your logic is too twisted.

So if, for example, the Nazis had used their uniformed, regular army to slaughter many Brits and occupy all of Britain in WWII, then that would've been OK with you,… because the Germans had done it using their uniformed soldiers.

But if the ordinary British people had risen up and fought back such an occupation, then you would've considered them to be terrorists!! Correct???

I am utterly amazed!!!

By most definitions, terrorism is violence (or the threat of violence) carried out by non-state actors.

And I didn't see Bethsmum condone Nazi massacres, just make the distinction that to her view, they would not be terrorists.

BM - thanks for answering my questions directly without trying to change the subject or hide your views. This is refreshing and I applaud you for your honesty and consistency in your logic.

Whilst I hold a different view, I have to say your logic is consistent.

You pre-empted me by stating you also consider Mandela as a terrorist for being behind violence against a state and doing this not in a uniform. You even stated you would pay to kill politicians who are now in power who in the past used 'terrorism'.

Therefore to you George Washington was a terrorist and the upstart colonists should have been wiped out too.

The French resistance in WWII are also terrorists by your definition.

But more interestingly, Menachim Begin (proud leader of the terrorist group Irgun who attacked British soldiers) was also an illegitimate politician who you would have gladly paid to get rid of.

Cheers
Shafique

event horizon wrote:By most definitions, terrorism is violence (or the threat of violence) carried out by non-state actors.

And I didn't see Bethsmum condone Nazi massacres, just make the distinction that to her view, they would not be terrorists.

C'mon EH....

She said Nelson Mandela is a terrorist...

I thought I have seen it all, and heard it all.... but I must admit, I have not heard this one before...

So, if you decide to defend your homeland from invaders and occupiers, you're considered a terrorist!!!

C'mon.... Give me a break!!

And I don't think terrorism is limited only to "non-state actors". Haven't you heard of state sponsored terrorism? Does Lockerbie ring a bell??

I don't, for one minute, believe that you have not heard Nelson Mandela refered to as a terrorist before.

@Shafique, you are obviously more knowledgeable about history than me, and I really only like to stick to subjects that I feel I know something about so I won't argue with you on the likes of George Washington etc. I can only justify my views the way I have done, by my peronal experiences. To me the IRA is personified by those two cretins that managed to get seats in our Parliament. They are terrorists, always have been, always will be in my eyes, a waste of good mans breath, and like the Dubai assassination, if they were taken out, I would say 'nice one'

BM - you are right, Mandela was indeed considered a terrorists by Apartheid SA and fmously by Margaret Thatcher (and the ANC did indeed carry out bombings etc)

I also have strong feelings about the IRA - having been close to two of their bombings in London (as well as the 7/7 attacks).

I felt strongly about the US politicians etc that sent money and support to the IRA.

I can only imagine how you would feel if the IRA were armed to the teeth by the US and they helped them take over NI, then invade and occupy England because in the distant past the Celts lived there.


I am sure that you would fully understand and support an American mom who would call English resistance to the invaders 'scum' terrorists and would applaud the Irish killing Brit leaders who were in exile in France, for example.



Cheers
Shafique

shafique wrote:I can only imagine how you would feel if the IRA were armed to the teeth by the US and they helped them take over NI

What's the problem Shafique? Following your simple logic why do Irish Catholics have no right to establish independent state on the own land but kind Chechen Muzlems have? Double standard policy?

WOW I don’t think I’ve seen a thread evolve so far in such a short time and cover so many contentious subjects!

Once a terrorist not always a terrorist it would appear, and being a Nobel Laureate certainly helps with the new makeover, mind you I don’t think they’re too particular about to whom they’re awarded to these days, the power of forgiveness eeh? And you’re right, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter but you can’t always apply that and every analogy to every given situation, there are always mitigating circumstances!