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uaekid · Sep 17, 2010

a gift to DF human rights activists especially chocoholic who wants to protest and at the same time pays indirect tax money to support such human rights neglecting but just like the others choose to look the other way.or as she say "put your head in the sand"

kanelli · Sep 18, 2010

Once again, you are being a complete jerk. First of all, do you think that Chocs supports such a thing? Secondly, what do you mean she pays indirect tax money to support human rights neglecting... Are you saying that the money she spends in the UAE is supporting the UAE's lack of support for Palestinians in their ongoing battle with Israel?

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

@uaekid
I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with you on this one. The Isrealis have every right to protect themselves and if this means arresting some people then so be it. I fully support their efforts. Maybe you would like to post a youtube thingy showing the aftermath of a suicide bomber attack on a cafe or supermarket just to balance out your argument? I hate the 'lets knock the Emiratis' theme on DF but I also have lots of respect for the Isrealis. I think you'll find they have human rights too.

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

Bethsmum - I have the utmost respect for Israeli human rights organisations such as B'tselem:
http://www.btselem.org

This particular incident has been doing the rounds for a while - the father that was arrested wasn't arrested over security concerns, but on charges that the family was 'stealing water'.

The incident took place in Hebron, not in Israel - but occupied Palestine - in a place where Israeli settlers/colonists discriminate against the non-Israelis - not least in the allocation of water.

Here's an example of a young colonist in the occupied territory being caught on camera saying what Israeli censors rarely allow to be shown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hefIti-u ... re=related

TV cameras have captured the distressing moment a five-year-old Palestinian boy sees his father arrested for stealing water.

Khaled Jabari wails in torment and confusion as Israeli soldiers drag away his father Fadel in the West Bank district of Hebron.

Walking barefoot, the youngster becomes hysterical as he pleads with the troops not to take his father away.

One of the soldiers picks up the lad and removes him from the scene before Fadel is driven away in a four-wheel-drive.

After watching the footage, Hashem Abu Maria, of the Defence For Children International charity, said it was obvious the child thought his father would never return.

Palestinian boy is removed from the scene

He said he was contacting child support agencies in the field to offer him psychological help to cope with the trauma.

"This child does not comprehend the concept of arrest - he does not know what it means, like the policeman or soldier understands it," he added.

"I think that the child thinks that his father is leaving and not coming back - that he has lost him."

Israeli forces raided the town of Bakka after accusing Palestinian farmers of stealing water from the nearby Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba.

They pulled out irrigation pipes supplying vines and vegetable fields before arresting several villagers, including the boy's father.

Angry Palestinian residents say they have documents to prove they are registered with the Palestinian Water Authority, and are paying for the water they use.

They say it is the second time in a month police have removed their irrigation pipes.

"This land is the source of our income, and it is the cause of our struggle with the occupation since day one of the occupation," said Khaled's grandfather Badran Jaber.
"We live from it, we have no other job opportunity in light of unemployment reaching over 40% in the occupied territories."

The child's grandmother, Im Ghassan, added: "What right do they have to do this? Where can we go?

"This is our land, our home and nation, this is ours. We live here, we were born here, and we want to die here. Let them do what they want, we cannot do any more

Do you still think this is justified on security grounds?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

I didn't watch the video, I don't take any notice of propaganda, I form my own opinions. I have a lot of time for the Israelis. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. I'm afraid we will have to disagree on this one, In my experience you will never get an unbiased opinion from a Muslim. I don't mean that in an insulting way. I have both Muslim friends and Jewish ones too, I love them all. Just my opinion.

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

Ok - so you commented on a video of the occupying force (not in Israel) arresting a father for stealing water, and stated that 'Israelis have every right to protect themselves' ... but then say you didn't watch the video (unless you're only referring to the video of the Israeli youth spewing hate).

I guess therefore you're just making a general statement - along the lines of 'Palestinians who live in Hebron should be allowed to have the same water as non-Palestinians from Israel who choose to colonise their country'

And no, you weren't being insulting, just amusing. I'm sure you have black friends too.

Note that most Israelis don't agree with the colonists in Hebron either who share the youngster's hate caught on camera. They would not call that propaganda - just the unvarnished truth about those who think it is ok to steal land.

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj · Sep 18, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:I didn't watch the video, I don't take any notice of propaganda, I form my own opinions. I have a lot of time for the Israelis. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. I'm afraid we will have to disagree on this one, In my experience you will never get an unbiased opinion from a Muslim. I don't mean that in an insulting way. I have both Muslim friends and Jewish ones too, I love them all. Just my opinion.

Ah I see your one of "those" are you. Personally I am no fan of the Palenstenians, and that opinion is based on my dealings with them over the years in this country. And I've even heard some Emaratis say that they deserve what is happening to them !

If you look closely its always an Arab issue but to gain wider sympathy it is turned into a muslim issue. And I blame the Arabs for the mess that they are in right now. Also I have no dislike for the Israeli people or jews. They are human beings and have the same rights as us or anyone else on this planet. But what I am against is the way the Israeli govt treats the Palestinians and the zionist ambitions of some.

I would say the original video posted I don't see anything much more than propaganda aswell. The arrests might be wrong and unfair but focussing on the child is just trying tug at peoples hearts. Even if the parents were he biggest serial killers in the world the child would have reacted the same way.

BUT just absolute blind support without looking at both sides of issue. You say the Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. How are they being persecuted now in Israel ? And just because they were does them give the right do the same on to others ? Although this statment is wrong as I won't lable jews or the people of Israel as one monolithic block.

You say you form your own opinions but obviously those opinions a one very sided, unless you look at the wider picture and from both sides. Fortunately more and more people and nations across the world are starting to change their earlier views that Israel is innocent even if proven guilty and not accepting the get out jail free because we victims of the biggest human tragedy in living memory guilt card.

Every one is entitled to their opinion, so are you. I accept it, doesn't mean I respect it. Just as you don't have to respect mine.

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

I don't disrespect your view at all, I'm totally in favour of free speech. I am definately not one to hold back if I have an opinion. I don't get what you mean by 'one of those'. One of what?

-- Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:35 pm --

@ Shafique

With all due respect, black friends? What's that got to do with anything? How do you know what colour I am?

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

Bethsmum - I was being sarcastic. The line was meant to parody the 'I've got Muslim and Jewish Friends' with the "I've got black friends" or "I've got Jewish friends" to excuse a racist or anti-semitic comment ...

eg. Blacks are xxx, but I'm not racist - I have black friends.

You said:

In my experience you will never get an unbiased opinion from a Muslim. I don't mean that in an insulting way. I have both Muslim friends and Jewish ones too, I love them all.

Had I said,
"In my experience you will never get an unbiased opinion from a Jew. I don't mean that in an insulting way - I have Jewish friends." I would rightly be challenged on this statement and indeed there'd be a chorus of 'you're anti-semitic'.

Hence my sarcasm.

However, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it - and indeed perhaps in your experience every Muslim you have spoken to is 'biased'. Have you considered the possibility that perhaps what you see as bias is actually reality? My first sentence to you was a reference to Israeli human rights organisation B'tselem - they aren't Muslim and my views of the injustices are indistinguishable from theirs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

Jeez were you being sarcastic? Really? I can asure you I have muslim friends, and relatives for that matter, they are all biased. I don't seperate my friends by their religion or colour. All muslims see is their religion, it tends to cloud all aspects of their lives, in my opinion. I always have a laugh when I go to Jumeirah Beach Hotel and see the locals on the lash at the bar of the German restaurant, bless 'em. Isn't alcohol a big no no in Islam?

shafique · Sep 18, 2010

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

In what ways are your Muslim friends biased, Bethsmum? Just curious. (I never doubted that you had Muslim friends). I mean, do they all say that Israel is to blame for not following the UN resolutions calling for an independent Palestine and telling Israel to hand back land it conquered in 1967?

Or do they say things like 'You can't trust Jews - but I'm not anti-semitic, some of my bankers and lawyers are jews'

Cheers,
Shafique

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

Yes, I did get the sarcasm :roll:

No wonder religion causes wars.

Bora Bora · Sep 18, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Jeez were you being sarcastic? Really? I can asure you I have muslim friends, and relatives for that matter, they are all biased. I don't seperate my friends by their religion or colour. All muslims see is their religion, it tends to cloud all aspects of their lives, in my opinion. I always have a laugh when I go to Jumeirah Beach Hotel and see the locals on the lash at the bar of the German restaurant, bless 'em. Isn't alcohol a big no no in Islam?

WOW!!! ALL Muslims see is their religion??? Muslims are humans, and it is the nature of all mankind, male and female, to "sin" one way or the other - whatever their religion. If everyone practiced their religion this world would be a much better place.

How one practices their religion can go from one extreme to another. You see, if Islam says you cannot drink or smoke, in reality who are they hurting? I would rather have to "answer" for drinking and smoking and doing no harm to others other than myself, that being my health, than to answer for the killing of innocent people. Terrorists justify their actions in the name of religion. Jews kill in the name of religion, which in my book, makes them terrorists.

What is going in Israel is not so much about religion, but religion is used to justify its actions. There is a bigger picture BM as to what is behind Israel - they want the land and they don't care how they go about getting it. They have violated every agreement they made, they violated the human rights of American Rachel Corrie, a peace activist, who they murdered in Palestine, they have violated the human rights of Americans living in Palestine. They violated the human rights of reporters who dare to expose what is really happening but beating them. They value their own lives above everyone elses - how can the death of one Jew been seen as an outrage compared to the death of 100 Palestinians?

You seem to be an intelligent person. I would suggest that you search youtube where you will see both sides. Try removing the religious aspect and see it as people acting out for their own purposes and people. See if you can find something that shows how Palestinians take away the human rights of Jews. I couldn't. When you kill, you don't deny someone of their human rights, you deny them life.

Bethsmum · Sep 18, 2010

Yes Bora I agree with many of your points. The thing with the muslims is that they throw their religion in your face 24/7. I'm afraid my sympathies will always lie with the Isreali Jews.

Bora Bora · Sep 18, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Yes Bora I agree with many of your points. The thing with the muslims is that they throw their religion in your face 24/7. I'm afraid my sympathies will always lie with the Isreali Jews.

How doe you see where they are being wronged??? What injustices are being done to them?

Bethsmum · Sep 19, 2010

Have you ever been on the end of a rocket attack, BB, or in a cafe with your family when a suicide bomber walks in? I don't expect it's a pleasant experience. Do you wonder why they protect their borders so closely?

desertdudeshj · Sep 19, 2010

"THEM" means one who can find no fault with with Israel no matter what the evidence says, but would rather believe the spin. And your last two posts show it aswell.

Like I said for me its not a religious issue at all, rather a humanitarian issue, the land grab and all is an Israeli Arab political issue and I leave it up to them. Sometimes we can dehumanize or get de sensitized to the issue if we keep hearing about it day in and day out.

Here is a view from the other side of the border. Maybe this will help you put it into perspective a bit. Its not propaganda, no hard hitting voice overs or thundering score. Just plain footage.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm

shafique · Sep 19, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Yes Bora I agree with many of your points. The thing with the muslims is that they throw their religion in your face 24/7. I'm afraid my sympathies will always lie with the Isreali Jews.

So, your views towards Muslims is coloured by your experience that Muslims throw their religion in your face, 24/7.

That would probably explain your reaction to what I wrote in this thread - had I written the same things under the name 'Steve' and said I was an atheist, you may have read them differently, perhaps?

No where in my replies did I mention religion (either my own, the perpetrators or the victims) - but I was commenting on your statement about Muslims in general being biased. You may wish to reflect on this fact.

Have you ever been on the end of a rocket attack, BB, or in a cafe with your family when a suicide bomber walks in? I don't expect it's a pleasant experience. Do you wonder why they protect their borders so closely?

You do know that suicide bombing started in the 90s as a response to a Jewish Religious terrorist shooting worshippers in a mosque in Hebron (occupied Palestine, not Israel) because he wanted to stop the peace process? His name was Baruch Goldstein and there is a thread about him in the religion forum. (Suicide bombing, and terrorism in all forms is inexcusable - but still we should not blindly believe that Palestinians value lives less than other people etc)

However, your point is well made - we should indeed feel sympathy for those who are living under the threat of being killed by explosives. That is exactly why non-Muslims who look at both sides of the argument, look at international law and, above all, look at the body counts - have equal sympathy for Palestinian victims as they do for Israeli victims.

But we seem to be discussing two different issues - you're talking about defending a border, ensuring security within Israel etc. The original post was about an arrest in occupied territory of a man accused of stealing water. I have absolutely no objection to secure Israeli borders - on that I agree with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora Bora · Sep 19, 2010

Bethsmum wrote:Have you ever been on the end of a rocket attack, BB, or in a cafe with your family when a suicide bomber walks in? I don't expect it's a pleasant experience. Do you wonder why they protect their borders so closely?

I don't think either of us have ever been on the end of a rocket attack nor in a cafe when a suicide bomber walks in. I also don't think we have ever been in a position to see our parents shot to death, our home destroyed, our only source of income, such as 200 year old olive trees uprooted, or lived in a camp because everything you owned or everyone you loved was killed. Do you live behind a wall erected to keep you "inside"? Do you get searched and detained when you go from say, Dubai to Oman? Are you deprived of medicines, food and basics just to surive? It seems that the border is there for Israelis to cross over only to kill, maim and destroy. Do you think any of this may be reason for rocket attacks and suicide bombers?

Let's be honest, the Israelis want the Palestinians to leave the land. They want them gone.

Dillon · Sep 19, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:Here is a view from the other side of the border. Maybe this will help you put it into perspective a bit. Its not propaganda, no hard hitting voice overs or thundering score. Just plain footage.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm

You have an unusual perception of what is and isn’t propaganda DD, you omitted staged, scripted, choreographed, edited and biased from your descriptions

desertdudeshj · Sep 19, 2010

Dillon wrote:
desertdudeshj wrote:Here is a view from the other side of the border. Maybe this will help you put it into perspective a bit. Its not propaganda, no hard hitting voice overs or thundering score. Just plain footage.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm

You have an unusual perception of what is and isn’t propaganda DD, you omitted staged, scripted, choreographed, edited and biased from your descriptions

Its been ages since I watched it but I sont remember it being staged or choreographed or scripted. editied and biased ofcourse, but biased only because it supposed to show you palestenian aftermath of opertaion cast lead. It would be a pointless documentry for showing you the Israeli side aftermath of operation cast lead, which if I recall was, nothing.

Dillon · Sep 19, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:
Its been ages since I watched it but I sont remember it being staged or choreographed or scripted. editied and biased ofcourse, but biased only because it supposed to show you palestenian aftermath of opertaion cast lead. It would be a pointless documentry for showing you the Israeli side aftermath of operation cast lead, which if I recall was, nothing.

No! I’m sure if you searched hard enough, you would find just as much propaganda from the Israeli’s giving their reasons why operation Cast Lead was executed and their versions of the aftermath too?

Bora Bora · Sep 19, 2010

Dillon wrote:
desertdudeshj wrote:Here is a view from the other side of the border. Maybe this will help you put it into perspective a bit. Its not propaganda, no hard hitting voice overs or thundering score. Just plain footage.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm

You have an unusual perception of what is and isn’t propaganda DD, you omitted staged, scripted, choreographed, edited and biased from your descriptions

You forgot to mention if that was done on a Hollywood or Bollywood set. Did Scorsese direct it? Was Tony Shaloub too busy filming "Monk" to appear? Where did they get all the extras - from Michigan? Or are those people actually Indian, who know how to speak Arabic? :roll:

Dillon · Sep 19, 2010

Bora Bora wrote:
Dillon wrote:
desertdudeshj wrote:Here is a view from the other side of the border. Maybe this will help you put it into perspective a bit. Its not propaganda, no hard hitting voice overs or thundering score. Just plain footage.

http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm

You have an unusual perception of what is and isn’t propaganda DD, you omitted staged, scripted, choreographed, edited and biased from your descriptions

You forgot to mention if that was done on a Hollywood or Bollywood set. Did Scorsese direct it? Was Tony Shaloub too busy filming "Monk" to appear? Where did they get all the extras - from Michigan? Or are those people actually Indian, who know how to speak Arabic?

Well ... I think you've gone over the top just a tad there Bora, staged, scripted, choreographed, edited and biased as I posted originally will do just nicely thank you, but thanks for your suggestion anyway!

Bethsmum · Sep 19, 2010

Bora Bora wrote:
Bethsmum wrote:Have you ever been on the end of a rocket attack, BB, or in a cafe with your family when a suicide bomber walks in? I don't expect it's a pleasant experience. Do you wonder why they protect their borders so closely?

I don't think either of us have ever been on the end of a rocket attack nor in a cafe when a suicide bomber walks in. I also don't think we have ever been in a position to see our parents shot to death, our home destroyed, our only source of income, such as 200 year old olive trees uprooted, or lived in a camp because everything you owned or everyone you loved was killed. Do you live behind a wall erected to keep you "inside"? Do you get searched and detained when you go from say, Dubai to Oman? Are you deprived of medicines, food and basics just to surive? It seems that the border is there for Israelis to cross over only to kill, maim and destroy. Do you think any of this may be reason for rocket attacks and suicide bombers?

Let's be honest, the Israelis want the Palestinians to leave the land. They want them gone.

Bora, while I don't intend to disclose much about my personal circumstances here, for obvious reasons, I can assure you that I have been on the receiving end of a rocket attack, and more than once. It is a truely scarey experience.

desertdudeshj · Sep 19, 2010

Ah someone who might have lived in Israel for a while and gone through a traumatic event, this would explain your views.

Bethsmum · Sep 19, 2010

Shafique, thanks for all the information but it hasn't changed my view, you see I'm as stubborn as you. Anyway on a more interesting note, what do you think of Man City's chances this season?

-- Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:44 pm --

desertdudeshj wrote:Ah someone who might have lived in Israel for a while and gone through a traumatic event, this would explain your views.

Not Isreal, but somewhere equally as lively, at that time.

Bora Bora · Sep 19, 2010

desertdudeshj wrote:Ah someone who might have lived in Israel for a while and gone through a traumatic event, this would explain your views.

(Lebanon??) Anyway, yes it would explain BM's views, understandably.

kanelli · Sep 20, 2010

Sorry, but even if I had been near some bombing it wouldn't make me blind to the suffering of those on the other side as well. Even with negative personal experience one should strive for more objectivity, though I know it can be difficult.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Bethsmum · Sep 20, 2010

kanelli wrote:Sorry, but even if I had been near some bombing it wouldn't make me blind to the suffering of those on the other side as well. Even with negative personal experience one should strive for more objectivity, though I know it can be difficult.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

There but for the Grace of God go I

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