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melika969 wrote:hehe, I am a result of Islamic education system, dont u forget that!

So was the 'breast feeding fatwa' cleric - an education does not immunise yourself from silly comments/views !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6681511.stm


RC - your comments about integration, being different etc all reinforce my comparisons with earlier communities which faced prejudice. My point is that it wasn't right then and isn't right now - but it does indeed exist and those justifying the prejudice thought they were justified in their beliefs.

But if indeed people act aggressively and do not want to adapt, then they are asking for trouble. (And that description actually makes me think of colonial Europeans - in the US, Australia, Africa etc )

As the Bible says, 'there's nothing new under the sun'!

Cheers,
Shafique

So was the 'breast feeding fatwa' cleric - an education does not immunise yourself from silly comments/views !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6681511.stm

At least he did not try to alter prophet and Quran's views, and he did not try to show "his religion" moderate and peaceful!

btw, our education was quite different, I am an Engineer+MBA, he is a cleric!

shafique wrote:RC - your comments about integration, being different etc all reinforce my comparisons with earlier communities which faced prejudice. My point is that it wasn't right then and isn't right now - but it does indeed exist and those justifying the prejudice thought they were justified in their beliefs.

I don't think that it's prejudice only but mostly protective reaction. I know it's very convinient to separate Islam from Islamism but it's easy only in your head.

Mel: As I said, he read and supposedly understood the Quran and Hadith - and yet still came out with a ridiculous opinion that he later had to apologise for. Islam wasn't, after all, a religion that condoned a silly and stupid act.

Similarly, loons try and generalise and paint Islam as aggressive etc.

The fact you want to believe Islam is as portrayed as loons - that is totally your right. I'll only object when you try and convince that this loon belief is actually based on any real evidence or that it is a view shared by the vast majority of Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique

Red Chief wrote:

shafique wrote:RC - your comments about integration, being different etc all reinforce my comparisons with earlier communities which faced prejudice. My point is that it wasn't right then and isn't right now - but it does indeed exist and those justifying the prejudice thought they were justified in their beliefs.

I don't think that it's prejudice only but mostly protective reaction. I know it's very convinient to separate Islam from Islamism but it's easy only in your head.

What is 'Islamism'?

I know what Islam is - it is a way of life of those who submit (i.e. obey) the commandments of God, in order to find peace in this world and the next.

Is Islamism the desire to rule the world?

Cheers,
Shafique

It's when martyr bursts a car with 50 kg of TNT in the trunk and gas cilinder inside in front of entrance to street market in Eid holyday.

Red Chief wrote:It's when martyr bursts a car with 50 kg of TNT in the trunk and gas cilinder inside on the entrance of street market in Eid holyday.

That's also more commonly called terrorism.

It has as much to do with Islam as Catholics blowing up protestants, or Jews blowing British soldiers has to do with Christianity or Judaism.

If that is how you define it, then it is something that Muslims and Islam itself also condemns!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Mel: As I said, he read and supposedly understood the Quran and Hadith - and yet still came out with a ridiculous opinion that he later had to apologise for. Islam wasn't, after all, a religion that condoned a silly and stupid act.

Similarly, loons try and generalise and paint Islam as aggressive etc.

The fact you want to believe Islam is as portrayed as loons - that is totally your right. I'll only object when you try and convince that this loon belief is actually based on any real evidence or that it is a view shared by the vast majority of Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique

The rules which u call "loon" Is based on real evidence, discrimination against women, jihad, taking over the whole world and make a global Islamic kingdom, killing murtids, eye for eye punishments and all other Islamic rules, are based on Quran and Hadith, as I said the version u preach is quite different from prophet's!

What you call 'real evidence' for global takeovers etc I call loon theories - so at least we are clear where each is coming from.

I'm also clear that as a practicing Muslim who can indeed cite evidence for their belief, there is a clear difference between Islam as understood by Muslims and that understood by loons.

It therefore comes down to a matter of choice - whether to understand Islam from loons' selective interpretations or from Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well you can go on and on abt "loons", but it doesnt change the "fact" abt Islamic rules and their very real evidence, "Quran"!

I agree - as I said, it is a clear choice between who to believe about Islam's teachings.

There is no confusion over the fact that your understanding of Islam's teachings is different from mine and is in line with Gert and eh's (loons/Islamophobes) - who, by the way, admit to not having read the whole Quran!

I'm 100% behind people having the right to hold views which are contrary to actual evidence - be they believers in flat earth or other beliefs. However, I will certainly continue to object to those who say that this is what I believe!

Cheers,
Shafique

Is it painfully obvious that what shafique calls 'actual' evidence for Islam's teachings others would call 'loon' fantasies - see shafique's claims about the meaning of the word Islam and the teachings of Jihad as formulated by the majority of classical Muslim scholars (shafique's guru, Hans Kung, actually contradicts shafique on these two loon beliefs held by shafique)?

event horizon wrote:Is it painfully obvious that what shafique calls 'actual' evidence for Islam's teachings others would call 'loon' fantasies -

Says the loon who admits he hasn't read (let alone understood) the whole Quran but insists he knows what Islam teaches.

Repeating a lie over and over again doesn’t make it true; but it certainly results in people believing the lie. That’s what the Islam-haters are counting on. That, and the ignorance about Islamic tenets.

So the best thing to do is find out what Islam really is about. Talk to a Muslim in person. Read an introduction to Islam (try a fun one like mine). Read Loonwatch to read about the holes in the anti-Islamic rhetoric. Or take a look at the University of Georgia’s informational website on Islam, for some quick answers and further reading. If you read the anti-Islam fear-mongering websites, all you’ll learn will be tall tales.

http://www.uga.edu/islam/

I rest my case.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
So the best thing to do is find out what Islam really is about. Talk to a Muslim in person. Read an introduction to Islam (try a fun one like mine). Read Loonwatch to read about the holes in the anti-Islamic rhetoric. Or take a look at the University of Georgia’s informational website on Islam, for some quick answers and further reading. If you read the anti-Islam fear-mongering websites, all you’ll learn will be tall tales.
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http://www.uga.edu/islam/

I rest my case.


Cheers,
Shafique

We all know you will never let it rest, because your 'religion' hangs in the balance here. So listen up Shaffy.

So the best thing to do is talk to a muslim. Well, I did that and they didn't kill me just yet. So you are right, as long as I don't burn a booklet of hope, or insult the precious Mo, I can hopefully remain in this life without being keeled by a devout muslim.

Reading a Quran doesn't inspire me, so I rather look at actions from the muslim community regarding 9/11, their Cordoba project and reactions around the world. Combine that with some expert (various) interpretation of the Quran and I don't like what I see and hear from the muslims. Religions never had tolerance as a middle name and they never will. Ideologies always have a radical side and this will not change unless the rest of the ideologic community addresses these radical convictions internally.

Its called enlightenment in Christianity.

Combine ideology with fatalistic fundamentalists and we have a recipe for disaster. I don't have to read a Quran to see what happens in the real world Shafique. Its the interpretation that counts and what they do with it. Terror is their answer from Allahs booklet. We see it everyday around the world!

If I weren't the Libertarian I am today, I would probably opt for the atom bomb on the ME region. DELETE and start over... lol

Fortunately, I believe in individual property rights and freedom of expression. So, just make sure to keep the misery where it is born not on my soil. I've had it with the loons over there. And before you ask...y'all know I don't support the invasion of US forces in the ME.

RobbyG said, "If I weren't the Libertarian I am today, I would probably opt for the atom bomb on the ME region. DELETE and start over... lol "

And that pisses me off as much as uaekid's ing comments about Jews.

That's because the instruction manual that comes with the car tells us to drive into pedestrians. No, wait....

But the weird thing is that the people who claim the instruction manual says 'drive into pedestrians' haven't actually read the whole manual, or actually driven the car - they've just read about the car from 'trainspotting for cool guys' magazine - which says that cars are evil!



Cheers,
Shafique

Gellar, Beck, newt, ,palin, spencer, wilders want it so bad they can taste it. They are selling this vision that there is a huge armada of battle ship filled to the brim with violent jihadis racing to their shore. A million man army marching at their door steps.

The terrorists have won a major battle already and they were given that victory on a silver platter, they said the would strike fear deep in to the hearts of western civilisation and western media and these sh!t selllers have helped them achieved this. Nut jobs like we see in this thread are already loosing their minds and sleep over it. I wouldn't be surprised if very soon they stocked up on supplies, armed themselves to the teeth, bunkered down, looking through the cross hairs waiting for the Hizbullah to turn the corner.

The symptoms G and EH are showing is that they've completely bought in to this 'war of civilizations' bullsh!t. Don't care, realise or just too dumb to see that by labelling an entire demographic as existentially and irredeemably guilty that you've become part of something as sinister and dangerous as believing that the entire Jewish race is forever guilty for the death of Christ?

Where Geert Wilders gets its popularity from is the fact that a large Muslim population is pushing their sensitivities across the whole society. They already changed society for the worse. By far most people are already afraid to critizise Islam openly. Also the weak responses to Moroccon street terror in the big cities from the left is causing friction.
I am lurking around Dutch Muslim forums, the sheer violent reactions by the far majority of forumers to other opinions are just appaling. A reasonable voice is extreme rare. The way they talk about kuffar is beneath any human level. And some forums are subsidized by the government as a means to smoothen integration.

kanelli wrote:RobbyG said, "If I weren't the Libertarian I am today, I would probably opt for the atom bomb on the ME region. DELETE and start over... lol "

And that pisses me off as much as uaekid's ing comments about Jews.

And rightfully so hon. Sometimes emotions take over the rational part of the mind. I was stirring up some fooks here on purpose.

-- 14 Sep 2010, 13:55 --

shafique wrote:But the weird thing is that the people who claim the instruction manual says 'drive into pedestrians' haven't actually read the whole manual, or actually driven the car - they've just read about the car from 'trainspotting for cool guys' magazine - which says that cars are evil!



Cheers,
Shafique

Haha, no no Shaffy.

The instruction manual might have a few flaws in it. The biggest flaw is the driving school (ideology) and its instructors (Imams) who teach how the drive the car.

In the West we regulate everything. In the ME, they tend to not care as much about safety or qualified instructors. After all, certain driving schools are fatalistically inclined and little happens to stop them, internally. Its all about 'gods willing'...

Halleluja.

IWell to be really honest FD forums arn't really the place where you will get a good cross section of society or group, sometimes just the worse. Unlike you I don't lurk actually contribute to a few N.American forums and you think we have an anti islamic brigade here, o boy ! And some of the things said there about muslims or what they would like to do to them, one would believe we lot didn't belong to the human spieces. Even your country man in a sneaky way put in he would rather nuke and wipe the entire muslim population out. Just look on what goes on here DF, that I guess says it all.

desertdudeshj wrote:Gellar, Beck, newt, ,palin, spencer, wilders want it so bad they can taste it. They are selling this vision that there is a huge armada of battle ship filled to the brim with violent jihadis racing to their shore. A million man army marching at their door steps.

The terrorists have won a major battle already and they were given that victory on a silver platter, they said the would strike fear deep in to the hearts of western civilisation and western media and these sh!t selllers have helped them achieved this. Nut jobs like we see in this thread are already loosing their minds and sleep over it. I wouldn't be surprised if very soon they stocked up on supplies, armed themselves to the teeth, bunkered down, looking through the cross hairs waiting for the Hizbullah to turn the corner.

The symptoms G and EH are showing is that they've completely bought in to this 'war of civilizations' bullsh!t. Don't care, realise or just too dumb to see that by labelling an entire demographic as existentially and irredeemably guilty that you've become part of something as sinister and dangerous as believing that the entire Jewish race is forever guilty for the death of Christ?

War of civilizations is not something I bought into. Its being portrayed by an Imam Raouf who says he promotes peace while 70 percent of Americans don't want that mosque build near the vicinity of Ground Zero. Respect that.

Besides, that Imam is being employed by the US State department to talk abuot the Cordoba project around the world, on US taxpayer cost. And since you 'bought into the belief' of 9/11 being a US false flag operation (I have my reasonable doubts), that should make you think twice about the players involved and that so called 'Clash of Civilizations'.

I don't have all the facts. I do know, this mosque doesn't belong there. The Imam is a bit delusional in my opinion to carry this project for over a year and not talk about it more transparantly. I have alot of questions and it requires absolute scrutiny.

Religions and tolerance don't go that well. In fact, history shows they are incompatible. In my view (and many with me), Islam is also incompatible with the Western values and in this case, the US Constitution. We discussed that in a topic I opened some while ago.

Everybody is treated equal in the US. But are we being treated equal in the Islamic world? I don't think so. Again, Western tolerance isn't open-ended.

Enough said.

You wanted to say it, oh wait you actually did say it. One of the most tired old anti muslim/islam cliches/myth/stereotype there is today. When people like to protray, as many including you have said its not open ended. And most recently with the current issue We will let you build a mosque when you let us build a a church in Mecca ( which has been answered and done to death before so not going to go into it now )or They do this or that so we should do this or that.

So i ask why are you so proud of your western civilisation or society when you look towards the east for role models at people and countries you blame, are against or plain simple been declared enemies ? Lead by example should mean something eh ? Why don't you import or all the other goodies aswell and why just stick to a select few ? Do really stride to be like Iran or Saudia Arabia ?

desertdudeshj wrote:IWell to be really honest FD forums arn't really the place where you will get a good cross section of society or group, sometimes just the worse.

That some are government subsidized apparently flew right over your head.

Say Emirati's are hard working people and give about half of their earned monies to the state. Sheikh Mohammed and advisors around him see that a Christian minority (given Emirati passports recently) has a hard time adjusting to Emirati values and that crime rate amongst them is quite high. A harsh response is out of the question, instead they decide to have a few cups of tea with the troublemakers and give some state money for social activities. At least it keeps them of the streets. Also internet forums are payed for so that the minority can share experiences online and it might help integration. But only Islam, the Emirates and its leaders are critized in a very fierce disdainfull way. I donot think Emirati's will take this lightly.

desertdudeshj wrote:Even your country man in a sneaky way put in he would rather nuke and wipe the entire muslim population out.

The ME is not entirely Muslim. Wishfull thinking much?

desertdudeshj wrote: Just look on what goes on here DF, that I guess says it all.

Yep.

Just because they are govt sponsered doesn't mean squat forums are just that forums, mostly used by people to vent their anger and politicaly incorrect frustrations.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Say Emirati's are hard working people and give about half of their earned monies to the state. Sheikh Mohammed and advisors around him see that a Christian minority (given Emirati passports recently) has a hard time adjusting to Emirati values and that crime rate amongst them is quite high. A harsh response is out of the question, instead they decide to have a few cups of tea with the troublemakers and give some state money for social activities. At least it keeps them of the streets. Also internet forums are payed for so that the minority can share experiences online and it might help integration. But only Islam, the Emirates and its leaders are critized in a very fierce disdainfull way. I donot think Emirati's will take this lightly.

Wonderful analogy. IF only DD would be able to project this reality in the right setting, this conversation would be alot easier...

@FD. For one thing Israel is in the Middle East. Egypt is a Muslim country where there is a large Orthodox Coptic population. Six religions are practiced in Lebanon, three of which are Christian. Jordan is home to a few important Christian sites - 6% of the population is Christian. The Middle East is not entirely Muslim.

-- Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:01 pm --

RobbyG wrote:War of civilizations is not something I bought into. Its being portrayed by an Imam Raouf who says he promotes peace while 70 percent of Americans don't want that mosque build near the vicinity of Ground Zero. Respect that.

Besides, that Imam is being employed by the US State department to talk abuot the Cordoba project around the world, on US taxpayer cost. And since you 'bought into the belief' of 9/11 being a US false flag operation (I have my reasonable doubts), that should make you think twice about the players involved and that so called 'Clash of Civilizations'.

I don't have all the facts. I do know, this mosque doesn't belong there. The Imam is a bit delusional in my opinion to carry this project for over a year and not talk about it more transparantly. I have alot of questions and it requires absolute scrutiny.

Religions and tolerance don't go that well. In fact, history shows they are incompatible. In my view (and many with me), Islam is also incompatible with the Western values and in this case, the US Constitution. We discussed that in a topic I opened some while ago.

Everybody is treated equal in the US. But are we being treated equal in the Islamic world? I don't think so. Again, Western tolerance isn't open-ended.

Enough said.

Let's keep in mind that a poll is not based on the entire American population. Those that do the polling also target areas where they know they will get the results that they are looking for.

Bora Bora wrote:@FD. For one thing Israel is in the Middle East. Egypt is a Muslim country where there is a large Orthodox Coptic population. Six religions are practiced in Lebanon, three of which are Christian. Jordan is home to a few important Christian sites - 6% of the population is Christian. The Middle East is not entirely Muslim.

FD gets that. He never implied that ME is uni religious.

Thank you for clarifying that point MCL.