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shafique wrote:Anyway, let's not relive old discussions - I'm more interested in eh's definition of religion and why he thinks relgion is not a description of rules for living one's life (i.e. a way of life).

Cheers,
Shafique

No, your honour, it isn't a private room. So please tell us what do you think about Mr. Wilders statement in his interview to Russian beauty (in OP) about Islam. Do you agree or disagree?

Geert is completely wrong about Islam being a religion of violence, not really a religion but a fascist ideology etc. He is labouring under the false notion that loon bloggers are correct in their interpretation of Islam (indeed he is another one that admits he hasn't actually read the whole Quran, in this interview).

As to his first 'loon' (i.e. islamophobic) claim that Islam is not a religion of peace, you can have a look at eh's challenge on Jihad in the religion forum.

For a non-loon reality-check about what Islam teaches, you can have a look here at the University of Georgia's page on Islam:
http://www.uga.edu/islam/


Now, I'm still fascinated to hear what eh believes religion to be, if not a 'way of life'.

Cheers,
Shafique

You have to take it easy on shafique, RC.

After repeatedly making claims of Christian 'scholars' accepting a particular view of Christianity he wants others to accept (but has so far only found one Christian scholar), he now ignores the quotes of Jihad by classical Islamic scholars.

philosophy-dubai/koran-positive-negative-talk-non-believers-t42807-45.html

philosophy-dubai/challenge-about-jihad-t43174.html

He still cannot find a quote from a second Christian 'scholar', perhaps more time on google will uncover the elusive second scholar shafique is searching for.

Meanwhile, I have five (count 'em) classical, mainstream Muslim scholars who all share the belief in offensive holy war that shafique has failed to address.

On top of that, he 'linked' to an NBC news story about Pastor Terry Jones supposedly being arrested but a few seconds of online google searching show that the story was a hoax - Jones isn't even custody and still making youtube videos if you wanted any more proof.

Nice attempt at diversion there, young one. All those threads are awaiting your answers, not mine - eg. why you think Spencer knows more about Islam and Christianity than Christian theologians who have actually read the Quran; Is your friend Pastor Jones really going to burn the Talmud; and whether you can ever admit that Abyssinia punks Spencer's theory right out of the water etc - and let's not forget the legion of other questions you're avoiding : Rapture, talking donkeys, your bizare statement about Homosexuality in the Bible, Godstein, etc etc)

So, what was that about your new clanger- that religion is NOT a way of life? Care to explain what you think religion is?

Cheers,
Shafique

Its obvious Shafique loves to think that Islam is just another religion, while in fact Islam is a totalitarian view also called an ideology. A utopian way of life. Thats a fact. Ask any muslim for confirmation.

Next, Islam and a certain score of followers are proven to be fatalistically inclined, as there is life after death. Should I call that salvation or is that too Christian for you lot, who adhere to this type of belief? Take the example of stoning of women in Iran or the two young boys in Pakistan who received the dark-aged way of public prosecution followed by public hanging. After all, according to Islam, the hellfire should feel softer by the medieval punishment you deserve on Islam's ground on earth. Psycho ofcourse.

Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

RobbyG wrote:Its obvious Shafique loves to think that Islam is just another religion, while in fact Islam is a totalitarian view also called an ideology. A utopian way of life. Thats a fact. Ask any muslim for confirmation.

Next, Islam and a certain score of followers are proven to be fatalistically inclined, as there is life after death. Should I call that salvation or is that too Christian for you lot, who adhere to this type of belief? Take the example of stoning of women in Iran or the two young boys in Pakistan who received the dark-aged way of public prosecution followed by public hanging. After all, according to Islam, the hellfire should feel softer by the medieval punishment you deserve on Islam's ground on earth. Psycho ofcourse.

Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

First of all, welcome on board, Rob. I'm glad that you are with us.

I agree with you for 90% except the view on countries like Afghanistan where Islam is probably the only way of surviving just like Communism for Russia was.

As for so advanced country like Holland such a "way of life" is not wellcomed and Mr. Wilders speaks about that directly.

Indeed Chief. Islam should suit fine in the dungeons of the third world. But for modern day advanced society (and its problems) we have another approach to solving societies issues. The individual approach.

Freedom of the individual is much more important than a group. Thats why democracy isn't perfect either. After all, the majority rules while the minority suffers from decisions made by the majority. In the end, another system would be needed, but for now, it works and people do have a property rights that allow them to express themselves individually without harming others.

If issues arise, we have a an individual bill of rights with an decent justice system that solves most matters between opposing parties.

We cherish our developments. Islam can have her's, but I don't agree with it and I don't need nothing from it when it is coerced by dark forces. F@ck Islam (red line drawn)

I take the free world where I can express myself properly, without retribution from ideologic madmen. Thank you very much.

RobbyG wrote:Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

More rational voice? Does he understand that Americans can't vote for him? Did he have lunch with the Pastor while passing through the land of the free?

Welcome back RobbyG.

Hey Bora,

Listen to what he says. He's absolutely rational in the video. Forget his populistic arguments which he throws out in the Dutch political arena to stir up the left, progressives in parliament.

This is his personal view about tolerance. If Islam really wants to promote religious tolerance, improve interfaith relations and compatibility with the US Constitution, then the Imam's should allow Synagoges to be build in Saoudi Arabia, try Mecca for a change. See how tolerant the Islamists are, aight?

NYC already has dozens of Mosques. F@ck their 'victory' mosque. Western World tolerance isn't open-ended. New Amsterdam (Dutch heritage) was given to the English and renamed New York a few hundred years ago. Geert was invited to talk about this sensitive matter as 70 percent of Americans have shown to be against the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero.

Geert Wilders said it perfect. Tolerance isn't open-ended. The lines are drawn.

Rough, more racist times are ahead. Sadly, this is how the world works.
Wilders is merely a center-right politician who appeals to the right-wing electorate. And for good reasons also. Dutch fooks are one of the most tolerant in the world. We don't give a crap about nationalistic tendencies. Because of failed Dutch leftist policies over the last decades, this will end and a certain type of nationalism will return.

I'll bet you a penny on that one.

RobbyG wrote:Hey Bora,

Listen to what he says. He's absolutely rational in the video. Forget his populistic arguments which he throws out in the Dutch political arena to stir up the left, progressives in parliament.

This is his personal view about tolerance. If Islam really wants to promote religious tolerance, improve interfaith relations and compatibility with the US Constitution, then the Imam's should allow Synagoges to be build in Saoudi Arabia, try Mecca for a change. See how tolerant the Islamists are, aight?

NYC already has dozens of Mosques. F@ck their 'victory' mosque. Western World tolerance isn't open-ended. New Amsterdam (Dutch heritage) was given to the English and renamed New York a few hundred years ago. Geert was invited to talk about this sensitive matter as 70 percent of Americans have shown to be against the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero.

Geert Wilders said it perfect. Tolerance isn't open-ended. The lines are drawn.

Rough, more racist times are ahead. Sadly, this is how the world works.
Wilders is merely a center-right politician who appeals to the right-wing electorate. And for good reasons also. Dutch fooks are one of the most tolerant in the world. We don't give a crap about nationalistic tendencies. Because of failed Dutch leftist policies over the last decades, this will end and a certain type of nationalism will return.

I'll bet you a penny on that one.

robbyG! I post this video not bcz of Islam than it is a politician who want to decide for the people what’s best for them and is threatened by a faith ! this is almost what he said in the minute “1” if the number will grow our society will change “ !!
how could you describe his view as tolerance if he doesn’t want a cretin faith in his country ? it is exactly the opposite of being tolerance and you certainly can’t give mekkah as a simple example bcz it’s a holy place yet all the others 3rd world countries has all kind of faiths for millions of years and as you can see did not inflect on anything serious .
ppl with those thoughts are no better than those Muslim extremists as you call them. You want your “individual” way or the highway ?. And I really don’t thing he’ll pull such a thing in any part of EU .not unless you Dutch are stupid enough to go along with it or simply cant think on their own.
Hey robbyg, since you are in the aerospace crap , what do you think of the 9/11 incident and those videos that proves those airplanes were a military planes and not commercial ones?
Check this out :



or the engineering opinion that the buildings went down bcz of a planed demolition since they went straight down ?

I found this little known video. US and AQ discuss 9/11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0&feature=fvw

Its amazing how people who support Hitler in killing them Djoos dare talking about tolerance and freedom. Then again, they are not human but filthy pigs!

Bora Bora wrote:I found this little known video. US and AQ discuss 9/11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0&feature=fvw

A classic from OnionTV! Thanks.

'Talking to you is like talking to a goat' - I know how he feels!


I'm quite tolerant of people who want to believe that Islam is not a religion - just as I'm tolerant of those who want to believe that the earth is flat, 9/11 was carried out by the CIA/Gov't etc - so, a really relevant video Bora!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm quite tolerant of people who want to believe that Islam is not a religion

Shafique, as far as I understood you have never rejected that Islam is a way of life or ideology. You only think that every religion is a "way of life" too.

I don't think that Christianity plays so comprehensive role in Holland like Islam in the KSA for instance. The religion as a way of life was exchanged for values long time ago. Some of them might be (might be not) came from Protestantism.

RC - yes, I do believe that any religion is by definition a 'way of life'.

What I was saying I was tolerant about were those who say that Islam is NOT a religion. The loon argument is that Islam is unlike other religions and is closer to Nazism or Fascism than, say, Buddhism. If people want to believe this, then we should be tolerant of their right to want to believe in this - but I view them in the same light as those who choose to believe the world is flat.

I have no issues with a distinction between Islamic theocracies, Christian theocracies (which don't exist any more) and secular states - but I don't buy the argument that because there are Islamic theocracies that means Islam is not a religion. I certainly don't agree with Oritentalist/Islamophobic/Loon theories that Islam means a desire to take over the world, subjugate non-Believers etc etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, probably a few hundred years ago Christianity in Holland was a way of life just like Islam now but nowadays Dutchmen (Germans/ Swiss/French/Belgian) had a fear that there will be two separate ethnos in one state: Dutchmen and Moslems who don't want to or cannot adopt to society.

It's what Geert said as I understood.

I know that your dream is milti-culti just like London or US but some othere countries resist.

Hey, Europe has a long history of distrusting 'others' - from Catholics to Hugenots, Jews to Blacks and local prejudices from the Irish, Roma etc - but that doesn't mean that the propaganda against the Jews, Catholics and now Muslims were based on realities rather than misleading propaganda.

Do you think that Islam really does teach Muslims to want to take over the whole world militarily or politically?

Surely the Mormons or Jehova's witnesses or Hare Krishnas (or even, Scientologists) have a higher proportion of adherants who actively preach (most Muslims just live their lives and don't go out trying to convert or convince others about matters of faith).

Much of the opposition to Islam stems from the fact it is so successful at attracting people who choose to live their lives by the latest version of God's instructions to mankind.

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you think that Islam really does teach Muslims to want to take over the whole world militarily or politically?

YES YES YES!
you do that too!

^I've no problem with people having the belief that this is what Islam teaches (it is no different from people believing the world is flat), but I do have a laugh when they insist that is what I believe!

But, hey - that's just me, being tolerant about other people's 'beliefs'.

Cheers,
Shafique

I think by now we all know that u preaching one different version of Islam than Muhammad!

Well, That's just you!

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. Most interesting.

But I'm so glad we agree that what I 'preach' and practice is different from what loons think Islam is.

You may want to re-read the quote in this thread:
dubai-politics-talk/who-afraid-shariah-t43190.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Now you calling the prophet a "loon"??

No virgins for you Shaf! According to Islamic Compassion, they will burn you in hell!

Perhaps you mistakenly thought I said I agreed with the loon versions of Islam?

I take it you didn't follow my advice to read the quote?

Repeating a lie over and over again doesn’t make it true; but it certainly results in people believing the lie. That’s what the Islam-haters are counting on. That, and the ignorance about Islamic tenets.

So the best thing to do is find out what Islam really is about. Talk to a Muslim in person. Read an introduction to Islam (try a fun one like mine). Read Loonwatch to read about the holes in the anti-Islamic rhetoric. Or take a look at the University of Georgia’s informational website on Islam, for some quick answers and further reading. If you read the anti-Islam fear-mongering websites, all you’ll learn will be tall tales.

http://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Next-Door- ... _rhf_p_t_1
http://www.loonwatch.com
http://www.uga.edu/islam/

Perhaps if you clicked on the last link you'll see the difference between the loon version and reality.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Much of the opposition to Islam stems from the fact it is so successful at attracting people who choose to live their lives by the latest version of God's instructions to mankind.

Which release are you talking about? Many people could agree with you but have in mind absolutely different events.

I'm talking about the latest release by the author of religions which are divinely revealed.



But you're missing the point - I was focussing more on why Islam is the focus of the opposition that in the past was manifested against Catholics, Jews, blacks etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:But you're missing the point - I was focussing more on why Islam is the focus of the opposition that in the past was manifested against Catholics, Jews, blacks etc.

It's the war, the same one as West did against Communism. Ideology is as powerfull as weapon. People resist when somebody comes to his home with the latest "instructions" and acts according to them.

What war(s) caused the anti-semitism against Jews or the racism against blacks? (Although I agree that wars and depressions etc cause a rise in prejudice generally)

I think people should indeed resist being told what to do by others and only do things willingly - but there's a difference between this type of resistance and the intolerance of objecting to what others believe or look like.

Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 wrote::lol: Now you calling the prophet a "loon"??

No virgins for you Shaf! According to Islamic Compassion, they will burn you in hell!

can you for ones contribute anything to the discussion other than your usual stupidity ?

-- Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:52 pm --

Flying Dutchman wrote:Its amazing how people who support Hitler in killing them Djoos dare talking about tolerance and freedom. Then again, they are not human but filthy pigs!

but but but I'm just a guy from the 3rd world countries, don't mind my opinion, but this guy is from EU and think that his ppl are stupid who can't thing on their own and is choosing what religion suits them according to him, isn't this WRONG to your standers.

ps:yes they are nothing but pigs.

uaekid wrote:

melika969 wrote::lol: Now you calling the prophet a "loon"??

No virgins for you Shaf! According to Islamic Compassion, they will burn you in hell!

can you for ones contribute anything to the discussion other than your usual stupidity ?

and Kid talks abt showing stupidity!

-- Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:04 pm --

shafique wrote::mrgreen:

Perhaps you mistakenly thought I said I agreed with the loon versions of Islam?

I take it you didn't follow my advice to read the quote?

Repeating a lie over and over again doesn’t make it true; but it certainly results in people believing the lie. That’s what the Islam-haters are counting on. That, and the ignorance about Islamic tenets.

So the best thing to do is find out what Islam really is about. Talk to a Muslim in person. Read an introduction to Islam (try a fun one like mine). Read Loonwatch to read about the holes in the anti-Islamic rhetoric. Or take a look at the University of Georgia’s informational website on Islam, for some quick answers and further reading. If you read the anti-Islam fear-mongering websites, all you’ll learn will be tall tales.

http://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Next-Door- ... _rhf_p_t_1
http://www.loonwatch.com
http://www.uga.edu/islam/

Perhaps if you clicked on the last link you'll see the difference between the loon version and reality.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I talked to hundreds of muslims, read much more than introdutionary books, and know abt propaganda much more than ur "loonwatch" website!

hehe, I am a result of Islamic education system, dont u forget that!

shafique wrote:I think people should indeed resist being told what to do by others and only do things willingly - but there's a difference between this type of resistance and the intolerance of objecting to what others believe or look like.

Not so easy. I have a fiend in Moscow. He is Moslem and has very Eastern appearance but after a conversation during one or two minutes I totally forget about all of those - so close we to each other and share the same interests and values. Probably he is as Moslem as I am Christian. I know only that he doesn't drink alcohol and eat pork. The rest is his personal business and he doesn't proclaim it on every corner. It's the example of adoptation. $hit what I'm saying! We are both Soviet people. He is us at the beginning.

Anyway he is in minority, newcommers act totally different and agressive and don't want to adopt.