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From the outset it has been clearly explained to you that God loves all creation and this is manifested in the attribute Rahman. This attribute is listed at least 114 times in the Quran, and appears in the very first verse of the Quran.

What's in a name ? Does that mean the Nazis were Leftists because they had 'socialism' in their title ?

Good argument.



Why not address what the Koran actually says of allah's mercy as William Lane Craig and I have already done ?

Allah is very merciful alright ... to those who love him back.

However, the Koran is very clear that allah is neither merciful nor loving (merciful and loving do not have the same meaning - it amazes me that this needs to be pointed out) to those who do not love him, ie., unbelievers and sinners.

Now, do you have a passage where allah says that he loves non-believers and sinners ? Do you feel like addressing the passages in the Koran where allah says that he does not love sinners and unbelievers ?

Are we to conclude that there is not a single positive passage in the Koran about unbelievers (the current count stands at 1 negative and 0 positive) ?

As I said, the choice is whether to agree with the Christian theological scholars who have studied the Quran and concluded that the God of the Quran (who is Rahman) is the same God of Jesus/the Bible - or whether to believe the Islamophobe's view that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is less loving and different from the God of Jesus.

For me the choice is clear - they are one and the same.

All the verses that talk of what rewards are there for those who choose to not sin apply equally to all humans, as do the verses that state what happens if you choose to sin. Therefore the whole premise of two categories of people is null and void, God loves all people the same and stating what the consquences of sin is hardly a negative, it is actually a positive sign of love (because it is a warning of what the consequences are).

This is no different from what Jesus taught - he also said some souls will be suffer in Hell for their deeds, and others will be in heaven - the same applies in Islam.

But as I said, your problem is that you can't admit to Kung's conclusions because it exposes the fundamental flaw in your belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting talking points.

I think they've all been addressed and dismissed several times throughout this thread.

Do you have a single Koranic verse you would like to cite that talks positively of non-believers ?

The current count: 1 negative, 0 positive

-- Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:33 pm --

God loves all people the same and stating what the consquences of sin is hardly a negative, it is actually a positive sign of love (because it is a warning of what the consequences are).

Unfortunately, the Koran *does* say that allah does not love unbelievers and sinners while the Koran also says that allah does love those who believe.

On the other hand, the Bible says that God does love sinners.

Koran: allah hates disbelievers (his words, not mine) and sinners

Bible: God loves sinners

Berrin agrees with me.

On the other hand, the Bible says that God does love sinners.

Quran too says that god loves sinners as long as they show regret, remurse and repentance..
The Prophet said:
“If mankind were not to commit sins, God would create other creatures who would commit sins, then He would forgive them, for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.” (Al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Musnad Ahmed)
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/421/

Koran: allah hates disbelievers (his words, not mine) and sinners

Koran doesn't hate disbelievers, God condemns their resistance and actions..
Bible says the same as it has similar terminology such as atheist, heathen, heretic, apostate, blasphemy, pagan, sinner,anti-Christ, chosen and gentile..
http://biblestudies.suite101.com/articl ... es-sinners

So Your problem must be either "religion" or islamophobia..

Choose your pick...

eh - I admire the way you can continue to ignore a simple fact - i.e. that the God of the Bible is the same as the God of the Quran according to Christian theological scholars who have actually read and understood the Quran (unlike yourself, as you've admitted you haven't actually read the whole Quran and insist Bob Spencer and his ilk are correct).

Berrin is clear: God does not hate disbelievers.

The Bible is clear, sinners will be punished in Hell. The Quran is clear, +some+ sinners will be punished in Hell (many will be forgiven). God yet loves everyone, those He punishes for their choices and those He rewards for their choices.

Everyone is clear except you, young one. But then again, we've seen a clear pattern of denial when the truth of loon theories of Islam are exposed.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin did not say that Koran god does not hate disbelievers. He said that Koran god does not hate sinners if they first repent. I agree with him as does William Lane Craig - Koran god only loves those who love him back.

The Quran is clear, +some+ sinners will be punished in Hell (many will be forgiven).

The Koran is clear that all disbelievers will be sent to the eternal fires of hell and sinners will be sent to hell - but hell will be a temporary abode for those who die as Muslims.

Suicide bombers will be sent straight to paradise since they 'kill and are killed' for allah.

In any event, Oh wise one, the New Testament is far from clear on the afterlife, with some church fathers interpreting passages to mean that all, including Lucifer, will be saved. Others are annihilationists who believe that wicked souls will be annihilated rather than suffer for all eternity. These are all views with strong evidence from the New Testament.

And it was already explained to you before, Oh Biblical scholar, that only the New Testament talks of a hell.

See what I mean about ignoring the simple fact I stated?

Let's try again, shall we?

What is your answer to the fact that Christian theological scholars who have studied the Quran (and understand what 'Rahman' etc means in terms of God's attributes) conclude that God is one, and is the same God of the Bible?

Do you disagree with them? If you don't, then it is clear you merely misinterpret (wilfully or ignorantly) the descriptions of the consequences of sin with a notion of hate toward sinners.

Cheers,
Shafique

I totally agree with William Lane Craig's argument that the god of Islam does not love sinners or disbelievers.

He has proven this by quoting allah where he says that he does not love those who don't love him.

The fact that your argument crumbles when subjected to scrutiny says it all.

I'm not interested in what the Bible says - Muslims follow the Koran, not the Bible.

So why not address the clear quotes from the complete Koran instead of continuing on with your straw-man ?

Yeap...islamophobia....

You see - still ignoring the simple fact.

Loons are so shy of actual evidence, it is painful.

Cheers,
Shafique

The current count of negative to positive verses in the Koran stands at 1 and 0, respectively.

You should take your 'brilliant arguments' of the New Testament superseding what allah says in the Koran to the other thread.

There, I wait patiently for even one passage where allah says that he loves non-believers or sinners.

Still ignoring a simple fact and pointing at a strawman.

Such as it always was with loons - they can't face the evidence. I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

Koran 4:76

The believers fight in the way of God, and the unbelievers fight in the idols' way. Fight you therefore against the friends of Satan; surely the guile of Satan is ever feeble.

Such as it always was with loons - they can't face the evidence. I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

Who are these Christian scholars you are referring to ?

The current count stands at 2 negative, 0 positive.

LOL.

Professor Hans Kung is a Christian theologian who has actually studied and understood the Quran and concludes that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Jesus. Which loon blogger believes they are more qualified than him? (Note, he is a 'Senior Christian Theologian'):

As a leading Catholic theologian, Küng, with special reference to Nostra Aetate, openly and boldly invited the members of the Catholic Church to officially acknowledge Muhammad’s prophethood if they wanted to establish better relations with Muslims. In this connection, Küng underlines:

The same church must, in my opinion, also respect that the one whose name is absent from the same declaration out of embarrassment, although he and he alone led Muslims to pray to this one God, so that once again through him, Muhammad, the prophet, this God ‘has spoken to mankind’. (“World Religions” 129)

And

Küng continues to draw attention to the similarities of the teachings of the Biblical prophets and Muhammad by urging Christians to read the Quran and the Bible, especially the Old Testament, to find answers to the following questions:

Do not these three Semitic religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have the same origin? Does not One and the same God speak loudly and clearly in these religions? Does not the Old Testament’s ‘Thus says the Lord’ correspond to the Quran’s ‘say’, as the Old Testament’s ‘go and tell’ matches the Quran’s ‘take you stand and warn’. (26)

He says that if Christians do this, it is impossible for them to answer these questions negatively. Thus, he concludes that “it is only dogmatic prejudice when we [Christians] recognize Amos and Hosea, Isaiah and Jeremiah, as prophets, but not Muhammad” (26).

http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2 ... et-of-god/


Cheers,
Shafique

So your 'scholars' of Christianity shrinks down to one scholar.

Why the need to lie by repeatedly pluralizing 'scholar' ?

What's wrong with starting with Professor Hans Kung? We can move on to other Christian scholars later - eg

FOUAD ELIAS ACCAD grew up in Lebanon in the Greek Orthodox Church and dedicated his life to reaching out to Muslims. Fouad became on ordained pastor and was a scholar who knew ancient Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, Aramaic, and Armenian. In his later years, he was a respected hakeem, or "wise one," and unique doors were opened to him. He befriended many important people, from common peasants to sheiks in the Middle East. Pastor Accad died in 1994.

He knows Arabic, studied the Quran and came to the same conclusion as Kung.

Ergo, 'scholars' is indeed what I can quote. (Don't you feel foolish now?)

shafique wrote: I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

So, do you think Bob Spencer is as qualified as Professor Kung (who has indeed read the whole Quran, and is a scholar of the Bible too).

I look forward to you addressing the quotes I give from Kung. No more whining please.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, now we've established that indeed scholars of Christianity have concluded that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible, I await your comments/refutation of this simple fact.

Is it not the case that those who have studied the Quran and know the Bible intimately, and conclude the above, show that it is a failure of comprehension on your part about God not loving everyone according to the Quran? The same God, the same attributes - that is the expert opinion.

Why should we not believe them and believe loon bloggers who haven't actually read the whole Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

LoL.

So you had to crawl through google for that second scholar.

For a while you were looking rather desperate.

I'm not really sure how that short biography of some random Christian scholar supports your view about Christian scholars.

But I see this is another classic example of loon reasoning - relying on selective quotes and loon interpretations.

When you are ready to address the conclusions of Christian scholars who have studied the Quran and concluded that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, let me know.

I asked politely for you to stop whining, but yet we only get more of the same.

Do you have any answers, or are you just going to whine?

Cheers,
Shafique

The Christian scholar, William Lane Craig, has already shown that the god of the Koran cannot be the same god as the God of the Bible.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421

But first, WLC explains how parents actually love rebellious children (hate the sin, not the sinner [both you and berrin have said that it is 'ok' for parents to stop loving their children]):

3. The answer to this third question is, "Yes, emphatically Yes!" You can separate the sin from the sinner. Every good parent knows this fact. Your rebellious teenage son or daughter will break your heart precisely because you love him or her despite his or her defiant and wicked behavior. If you didn't love your child, it wouldn't hurt so bad. But the fact is that you do love your children, despite their waywardness.

So WLC concludes:

I believe that this moral difference between the God of the New Testament and the God of the Qur'an is just as important as differences over the Trinity, for it strikes at the very heart of Who God is.

There is no possible way that the god of the Koran is the same of Biblical God. The two are morally and conceptually different.

Christian scholars have refuted previous apologetic claims.

So, that's a 'no' I can't actually address Kung's findings directly, but will quote someone else'.

BTW - who is this Craig fellow, and why should we believe him over Kung, and (more to the point) has he actually studied the Quran or is he relying on quotes from loon bloggers?

As I stated above, many times, Christian theologians who have studied the Quran and are well versed with the Bible have concluded that the God of the Quran and God of the Bible are the same. This punks your argument, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps that is why you haven't actually addressed this conclusion head on yet?

You've just repeated your argument why YOU think the Quran says God does not love everyone - and haven't addressed the point why Kung et al have reached a different conclusion from you. Perhaps it is because Kung et al have read and understood the Quran, rather than loon interpretations of selected quotes?

Cheers,
Shafique

So that's a 'no' I can't actually quote more than one Christian scholar who actually believes the god of the Koran and the God of the Bible are the same.

As I stated above, many times, Christian theologians who have studied the Quran and are well versed with the Bible have concluded that the God of the Quran and God of the Bible are the same.

Who are these Christian theologians ? You've quoted *ONE* theologian who actually makes this claim.

One.

When caught up in one lie, the best thing to do is not to lie some mroe.

You've just repeated your argument why YOU think the Quran says God does not love everyone - and haven't addressed the point why Kung et al have reached a different conclusion from you.

Wow, how ironic.

You haven't addressed the point why five classical Muslims scholars have reached a different conclusion from you.

Really, you must work at being this dumb.

When you get round to addressing the questions posed, let me know.

You keep going back to the selective quotes and your loon interpretations, but can't address the simple question posed: why is it that Christian theologians who have actually studied the Quran conclude that the God of the Bible is the same God of the Quran?

Just wishing these conclusions didn't exist won't make them go away!

Cheers,
Shafique

Who are these scholars ?

You've only quoted one scholar, Hans Kung - and he certainly doesn't believe that Islam is on par with Christianity.

So, the better question is why Christian, Atheist, agnostic, Jewish scholars have all rejected Islam.

I'm starting with Kung and waiting for you to address his conclusions and the fact he's actually studied the Quran vs Spencer who hasn't actually read the whole Quran but thinks he knows what Islam actually is about.

Why do you want me to quote other Christian theologians as well.. are you playing for time? I stated above that we can move on to other Christian scholars after we've dealt with Kung's conclusions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Speaking of someone playing for time, I've asked you repeatedly for quotes from 'scholars' and you have only provided one scholar who actually holds the view that the god of Islam is the same god of the Bible.

Also, I refer you back to the previous post where New Testament scholar, William Lane Craig, explains that the god of the Koran cannot be the same God of the Bible.

I refer you to my questions about Craig's knowledge of the Quran and his credentials in this regard and point out that Kung's conclusions are clear and are from a Theologian who has indeed studied the Quran.

I await your comments and trust you won't just try and find another quote to divert attention away from this simple fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

You can watch Craig yourself to see if he can hold his own against a professional Muslim apologist:

point out that Kung's conclusions are clear and are from a Theologian who has indeed studied the Quran.

Should it be too obvious to point that for every Hans Kung (so far you've only quoted one), there are hundreds, if not thousands of Christian theologians who have seriously studied Islam and reached the conclusion that the god of Islam is vastly different from the God of Christianity ?

If you're such a Hans Kung fanboi, why not address Hans Kung's views that contradict your own regarding Islam rather than only highlighting the bits where you agree with him on ?

That would be the obvious choice. Unless, of course, you're not into a serious evaluation of your religion.

Sorry, what was your argument against Kung's conclusion that God is the same?

I asked what Craig's credentials were in relation to his study of the Quran - and why we should believe his view rather than Kung's conclusion?

I never said I agree with all of Kung's views (he's a practising Catholic after all), so I guess this diversionary tactic can be brushed aside as well. However, he HAS studied the Quran and does know the Bible.

When you decide to address this point, let me know.

Cheers,
Shafique

Let me quote the argument again:

I believe that this moral difference between the God of the New Testament and the God of the Qur'an is just as important as differences over the Trinity, for it strikes at the very heart of Who God is.

A very simple argument - Koran god is morally different from New Testament God.

So, they must be different gods.

And we don't need WLC to have extensively studied the Koran (although he clearly has), no Muslim can dispute what he says about allah !