Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

I LOVE IT!!

I personally love science.

God cites the perfectness of creation in the Quran as a proof of the existence of God:

Blessed is He in Whose Hand is the dominion, and He is Able to do all things.
Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;
Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"
Then look again and yet again, your sight will return to you in a state of humiliation and worn out.

Quran 67:1-4

I always in awe when science comes back and shows these words revealed 1500 years ago to be literally true.

Science has not been able to find a flaw in the creation - and the more it looks, the more it finds that there is still more out there that is yet to be known. From dark matter and dark energy on the comsmological (very very big) scale - where basically these are shorthand for 'we don't have a clue what the majority of the Universe is' and also in the sub-atomic, quantum level (where we're hunting for the Higgs Boson and now have theories that there are more than 10 dimensions and there are 'super strings' etc).

The universe is a 'goldilocks' universe - look up the 'Goldilocks enigma' for more eg:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/the-goldilocks-enigma-why-is-the-universe-just-right-for-life/story-e6frg8no-1111112637066
(Oh, and if you've read the book - do you agree Davies' 'backward causation' theory requires more faith than a simpler belief of a Creator?)

So coming back to the chemical explanations of what people experience in near death experiences - I'm all for the scientific explanation.

Fortunately, the Quran does not say that 'near death experiences' don't have a chemical explanation - in fact, I've always been sceptical of these - as basically, what happens after death happens after death - by definition. I don't see why there will be a transition between being half alive and half dead.

People see visions and delusions all the time - and in traumatic situations, the brain does indeed play tricks on us. Endorphins etc.

I guess the decision we need to take is whether the brain and it's mechanisms that we're discovering all evolved out of natural selection without any outside creator's help or not.

I don't have enough faith in the small chance that it did happen without a creator to hold the belief that God doesn't exist. I am in awe of those who have enough faith to believe in the infinitesimally small probability that it all happened by chance.

(psst - don't mention science to 'eh' he'll start telling you that science is suspended when the Bible says miracles occurred - rational Muslims like me believe that all miracles God shows are within the laws of nature/science)

Cheers,
Shafique

hehe that s waaayyyy too mcuh off topic shaf!

btw, the Quran does not say that 'near death experiences' don't have a chemical explanation , because Prophet didnt know about chemical expanations and so he could not deny it?!!

The Quran does not mention 'near death experiences' at all, and there are many, many things that the Quran (or Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) didn't deny or mention.

I still find it all fascinating though - all new discoveries back up God's revelation that I quoted above.

Cheers,
Shafique

aha! but still we all need ur interpretion and explanation to get how those verses are being backed up by scientific discoveries!

Nope, why do you say that?

Is there a verse of the Quran which talks about near death experiences?

God's verses about nature and perfection of nature etc are pretty clear, and its quite clear which verses are metaphorical or have multiple meanings.

What is clear though - and this is where science could prove religion wrong/false - is the clear claim in the Quran that only God can create life. Should science one day be able to bring inorganic material to life, then that would indeed undermine a central claim of Islam.

However, as someone who questions everything - science is a long, long, long way from even producing a virus or bacterium from inorganic material, or even sub-cellular organnelles - heck even a protein membrane is beyond the imagination of scientists right now. But, who knows - let's see what the future holds.

Otherwise, all cosmological, biological and physical/chemical sciences thus far are in total accordance with the Quran - and I don't have to resort to any 'it is a miracle' arguments.

Cheers,
Shafique

HAA! So is there a recipe in Quran for producing a virus or you are waiting for science to find it so you can relate it to one of Quran's verses?

Mel, I suggest you re-read my previous post. The emphasis was on 'life'

What I said there was that IF science creates a living being from inanimate matter, then that would definitely contradict the Quran which says clearly that only God can create life. I commonly say that a virus is the simplest form of life (although scientists argue that viruses aren't actually alive - you can indeed make chemicals that replicate themselves, eg polio RNA has been built from scratch - but the chemical isn't 'alive' according to scientists - in that you need a cell that viruses need other cells which are alive).

Now, when scientists believe they can indeed create life (or are close to creating life) - then that would indeed be worth looking at more closely. Should they successfully create life - then yes, this would indeed contradict God's words in the Quran.

So, the Quran is pretty clear on this specific aspect of Creation - the giving of Life from the basic inanimate elements is something that God says only He can do.

Did you know that the Quran contains more verses which talk about nature/creation (i.e. science - which is the study of the universe/nature) than there are verses of law/shariah? Muslims should indeed love science! Therefore, whilst the Quran does NOT contain the 'recipe' for a virus - God does instruct us to study His creation and find out how He did it!

Cheers,
Shafique

shaf, you can't fool me with Quran and science! I wont waste my time discussing how u and people like u,translate and interpret verses to relate them to science and justify Quran scientifically! anyway, when scientists find the recipe for "virus", you will find it in Quran as well, I m sure! hehehe

Why do you think I want to fool you?

I love science. It reinforces my faith and accords with what is in the Quran.

I'm not sure why that bothers you so - I'm not asking you to agree with me.

Cheers,
Shafique

errr.. what bothers me is I dont beleive you! u dont love science, you just manipulate Quranic interpretions so they would look like scientific facts!

LOL.

That says more about you than about me Mel. Also - if you read what you just wrote, it doesn't make sense either.

You've typed that I do love science, but that I will manipulate the interpretation of the Quran to fit in with science. In a way, I agree with this statement - I will indeed revisit what God says in light of new scientific discoveries and see whether God's words have been contradicted or not. So far, you know what my findings have been.

But doesn't that show that I love science?

Others who reject science and say that the sun can stop in the sky for a day, and explain this as 'a miracle', can't be respecting science as much as me - surely?

Cheers,
Shafique

correction! I didnt type you love science! u interpreted that!

If u trying to match Quran with scientific facts, doesnt mean that u love science, it means you want to get the approval of science people for your religion! hihihi

You're projecting again Mel - I can indeed love science for what it is and not because I have some underhand plot to convert everyone to Islam!

The Muslim who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1979 - Prof Abdus Salam was accepted as a great scientist by his scientist peers, and yet he also showed that cutting edge science is in total accordance with the Quran. But he's not exceptional - there are many in the scientific community who are religious - be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc.

What I think is frustrating you is that you perhaps had an expectation that Science disproves religion. For some it might - for many it doesn't.

Edit: There's a thread below which deals with this

There is not a single verse in the Quran where natural phenomena are described and which contradicts what we know for certain from our discoveries in Sciences.

philosophy-dubai/abdus-salam-nobel-prize-winner-t41151.html


Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 wrote:errr.. what bothers me is I dont beleive you! u dont love science, you just manipulate Quranic interpretions so they would look like scientific facts!

You have to admire Shaf's dedication to finding scientific proof for the Quran.
However, scientists are staunchly unbiased.
A muslim scirntist is a bit of an oxymoron then isn't it?

So, would a Nobel Prize winner for Physics for theoretical physics also be staunchly unbiased when he states that

There is not a single verse in the Quran where natural phenomena are described and which contradicts what we know for certain from our discoveries in Sciences.
philosophy-dubai/abdus-salam-nobel-prize-winner-t41151.html



But seriously, the above is the extent to which the Quran is a science manual - i.e. it isn't meant to be primarily as science manual - but it does describe nature. Therefore, if what it describes is false - then it does call into question the claimed authorship of the Quran - science should back up the Quran if it is true, but science can't be used to prove that the Quran is true (much of the Quran deals with spiritual stuff that lies outside of science - life after death, for example).

Now, of course, if the Quran said the sun stopped in the sky for a day - for example - and a Muslim scientist tried to make an argument that this physically could have happened, or that it was a 'miracle' and did happen - then that would be something to write home about. But as Prof Salam says - I don't have to resort to the 'it's a miracle' argument for Quranic descriptions of nature.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Now, of course, if the Quran said the sun stopped in the sky for a day - for example - and a Muslim scientist tried to make an argument that this physically could have happened, or that it was a 'miracle' and did happen - then that would be something to write home about. But as Prof Salam says - I don't have to resort to the 'it's a miracle' argument for Quranic descriptions of nature.

Cheers,
Shafique

if the Quran said the sun stopped in the sky for a day you'd have no choice but to believe it, and I am sure that you would.
if you beleive that sun stopped in the sky for a day by you're own choice, then that makes you just plain crazy.

Benjw - I totally agree with you.

IF the Quran did contain a scientific absurdity like the sun stopping in the sky for a day, the choice would indeed be to reject science or accept the Quran. I'm glad that, as Prof Abdus Salam points out, we thus far have not had to make this choice between science and the Quran. (I'm sure many Muslims would indeed reject science in that situation.)

I also agree with you about your last point - but I'm a bit more polite than you.

Cheers,
Shafique

[quote="thelast"]:D I LOVE IT!![/good doing
ok good u r g