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http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592628-e ... ee-dodgers

Whilst on one hand it is probably illegal for the Developer to take such action, on the other hand I can understand their point also.

Oh can you! Well in return can there also be a list of all the people/companies Emaar owes money to?!

sage & onion wrote:http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592628-emaar-names-and-shames-first-service-fee-dodgers

Whilst on one hand it is probably illegal for the Developer to take such action, on the other hand I can understand their point also.

Pot and kettle are the first words I have in mind after reading that notice on community board. This respectable firm made so $hitty inner decoration as floor tiles detached from base in most appartments during 4 years after finnishing construction and revealed sand with cement instead of concrete. Of course the same I could see for many months outside my flat-door.

I doubt that it coinsident that they start replacing tiles in common areas just after mentioned action. In a previous year defected tiles have remained intact. Tiles in flats are responsibility of owners of cause, because they gave warranty only for 1 !!! years. Everybody wonders where more than 20K per year of service charges go. To sand?

Or the number of contractors it has 'absorbed' over the years through manipulation of contract price and lack of payment on contract terms through trumped up allegations of default...



Knight

Red Chief wrote:

sage & onion wrote:http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592628-emaar-names-and-shames-first-service-fee-dodgers

Whilst on one hand it is probably illegal for the Developer to take such action, on the other hand I can understand their point also.

Pot and kettle are the first words I have in mind after reading that notice on community board. This respectable firm made so $hitty inner decoration as floor tiles detached from base in most appartments during 4 years after finnishing construction and revealed sand with cement instead of concrete. Of course the same I could see for many months outside my flat-door.

I doubt that it coinsident that they start replacing tiles in common areas just after mentioned action. In a previous year defected tiles have remained intact. Tiles in flats are responsibility of owners of cause, because they gave warranty only for 1 !!! years. Everybody wonders where more than 20K per year of service charges go. To sand?

For every negative their is a positive, I for one have no complaints whatsoever regarding the Property that we live in, it is well built, in very good condition after more than 5 years (properly maintained).
Whilst I agree that the Developer is ultimately resposible it is an unfortunate facet of this market whereby fly-by-night Consultants / Contractors have been allowed to flourish.

sage & onion wrote:
For every negative their is a positive, I for one have no complaints whatsoever regarding the Property that we live in, it is well built, in very good condition after more than 5 years (properly maintained).
Whilst I agree that the Developer is ultimately resposible it is an unfortunate facet of this market whereby fly-by-night Consultants / Contractors have been allowed to flourish.

If you don't believe me and like ancient ruins I can invite you in the flat, which I have rented for a few months. Cement powder with sand on the ground instead of concrete is still available for observation.

It's not only me, who so unlucky. The same heappend with every single owner in my building, whom I asked about.

By the way, what do you think about 1 year warranty for inner decoration? I have 3 for my car.

Chocoholic wrote:Oh can you! Well in return can there also be a list of all the people/companies Emaar owes money to?!

No.
Because those people/companies are being greedy and are not realizing that there is a financial crisis going on.

Chief

I do understand your point as an ex Emaar property owner. But it cuts both ways, yes i had problems but in fairness to Emaar they were always fair to me.

I sold my appartment in Al Majara 21 months ago before the crash ...and in the 4 years i owned it i had a few poblems yes. In particular all the ceramic tiles lifted in the bedroom early in 2008. I merely called the onsite facilities manager, he came to look and the following week they were ripped up and re-laid. This i may add was 3 years after i took possession.

After 2 years i was not happy with the decoration and wanted the flat re-painted. I phoned Emrill , they came around ad gave me stupidly low price and that was done within a month.

Even now Emrill or Emaars contactors will charge say 100 Dhs to change say a light fitting. Chief, back here in blighty its cost the equiv of 100dhs to get an electrician just to your front door. The cost here for the same job say 30 mins - 1 hour around 350Dhs.

Its horses for courses mate, at the end of the day i paid peanuts for my appartment and sold it for stupid money to some idiot with very few brain cells. The likes of Sage and me would or will never ever be out of pocket. Those who bought from 2006 onwards and didn't flip or resale need to see a doctor. It was their choice to pay a ridiculous sum of money for something that was artificially wayyyy over priced and now those same people are nit-picking over blah blah blah.

Even in my development at the time of sale, i would never in a million years, have paid nearly 2 million Dhs for an appartment in a tower, that had graffitti inside all 3 lifts, public area's that clearly needed some work, a pool the size of a postage stamp and management charges that were nothing short of hilarious.

Chief with all respect if you are renting and you have major issues then dont rent there or more to the point only pay what you realistically think you should actually have to pay. Everyone has a right to choose to buy or not to buy or to rent or not to rent. If the price does not justify the product then walk away or re-negotiate.

And last but not least lets not forget that all those who dont pay their service charges are witholding funds that could indeed be used to correct or repair work in public areas, and is most unfair on those that do ay on time every year. It is not Emaars or Salwans responsibility to spend funds they have not got. You might not even know if your landlord has paid the service fee's do you ??

I can tell you for a fact though that there are 000's of landlords and owners in Dubai with both rented and empty properties that have not paid their management fee's and the current fight between the owners of JBR and Salwan/DH is a prime example. In JBR they are all up in arms about window cleaning etc etc etc nd on the other hand you have the owners associaion advising all owners to either withhold their fee's or only pay the level that was set on completion as at 2006.

arniegang wrote:Chief with all respect if you are renting and you have major issues then dont rent there or more to the point only pay what you realistically think you should actually have to pay. Everyone has a right to choose to buy or not to buy or to rent or not to rent. If the price does not justify the product then walk away or re-negotiate.

Of cause, I am thinking about another place but doubt that there is a lot of better buildings here. I was stupid enough to hope on Emaar's excellency.

On the other hand, I don't count my reply as off-topic. If it's inconvinient for some P.R. managers of that respectable companies they both have right to delete my post.

Red Chief wrote:

arniegang wrote:Chief with all respect if you are renting and you have major issues then dont rent there or more to the point only pay what you realistically think you should actually have to pay. Everyone has a right to choose to buy or not to buy or to rent or not to rent. If the price does not justify the product then walk away or re-negotiate.

Of cause, I am thinking about another place but doubt that there is a lot of better buildings here. I was stupid enough to hope on Emaar's excellency.

On the other hand, I don't count my reply as off-topic. If it's inconvinient for some P.R. managers of that respectable companies they both have right to delete my post.

Chief

You said you have only lived there for a few months. Surely this must have been obvious to you at the time ! Maybe you need to spend some time looking around the various towers/developments at other appartments and pay as much attention to the general upkeep of all the common areas/pools etc. Like i said either use some faults as a bargining tool to reduce the rent or just walk away and find another. There is no reason why you cant ask the landlord to produce evidence that he has paid his management charges up to date.

In the current property market it is he or she with the chequebook who is the carrot, the landlord or seller is the donkey dont forget that. Every year a seller or a landlord that doesn't pay their fee's will eventually on point of sale, have to settle up all monies owing todate with interest charged on top, they are indeed the stupid ones and are fooling no one but themselves.

If people cant assert themselves or just ignore the basic rules just becasue its Dubai then things will never change mate.

Anyway in answer to the OP's post, then yes i feel Emaar has every right to name and shame non payers. The article is not about naming companies who own them money. It is about individuals not paying their service fee's that has an impact on their neighbours in the same towers that do pay. Fair play to Emaar i say.

BlackburnRovers wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Oh can you! Well in return can there also be a list of all the people/companies Emaar owes money to?!

No.
Because those people/companies are being greedy and are not realizing that there is a financial crisis going on.

erm no! These are people that have done work for Emaar and have yet to be paid for it - months down the line! You can't pay bills with an IOU now can you?

unfortunately the way buisness is done in dubai has a lot to do with 90-120 days credit. I had my own setup and had to fold due a shift in residence and I know first hand how difficult it is to get the dodgy *astards to cough up the dosh. If u walk into a freakin grocery people have got tabs for months... its just sad that buisness is done that way here... I knw a frnd of mine who lost 350,000 AED and Im talkin a normal salaried emplyee who had his own buisness part time jus cs people decided not to pay up. The poor guy now dishes out half his salary paying off his employees... There is something seriously wrong with this model. the bottom line is one word CREDIT. its every mans bane from a maxed out credit card to all the banks that loaned out hoards of cash for people to run away with. As a wise man once said - its not money but its the greed for money that is the root of all evil !!

Ok, Emaar ummmmmm

Let's see how long this link stays here !!!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34018704/Lombard-v-Emaar-USA

and the response

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE66B0WF20100713

Stick your head in sand and shout nah nah nah nah ... ad infinitum


Read it whilst you can, talk about naming and shaming

viking-warrior wrote:Ok, Emaar ummmmmm

Let's see how long this link stays here !!!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34018704/Lombard-v-Emaar-USA

and the response

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE66B0WF20100713

Stick your head in sand and shout nah nah nah nah ... ad infinitum


Read it whilst you can, talk about naming and shaming

Outrageous!!!!!! horrendous!!!!
We are far beyond breaking tiles here.

Thats a beaut!

I wanna do jury duty on THAT one!



Knight

As just an observer, here is a summary of the situation

A G4y, African American, in a human and civil rights case - prosecuted and persecuted in Dubai - is taking Emaar to court in California.

CAN YOU SPELL .... SLAM DUNK ............ !

He appears to be short a physical disability, a child and a religious slant - but hey you never know, this is just the beginning !!!

viking-warrior wrote:As just an observer, here is a summary of the situation

A G4y, African American, in a human and civil rights case - prosecuted and persecuted in Dubai - is taking Emaar to court in California.

CAN YOU SPELL .... SLAM DUNK ............ !

He appears to be short a physical disability, a child and a religious slant - but hey you never know, this is just the beginning !!!

The UAE Courts are corrupt and discredited.... no wonder why another guy is taking his case to a US court. Somber future for Emiratis, their assets in the UAE no longer worth anything, and their assets abroad are to be seized in bad judgements.

arniegang wrote: Those who bought from 2006 onwards and didn't flip or resale need to see a doctor. It was their choice to pay a ridiculous sum of money for something that was artificially wayyyy over priced and now those same people are nit-picking over blah blah blah. .

Back in 2006, anyone who said that there would be a crash was seen as the one who needed to see a doctor. I am sure there are threads in DF as well, where people predicted a crash and recommended flipping and were called stupids, jealous of Dubai's success and what not.

-- Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:16 pm --

Chocoholic wrote:

BlackburnRovers wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Oh can you! Well in return can there also be a list of all the people/companies Emaar owes money to?!

No.
Because those people/companies are being greedy and are not realizing that there is a financial crisis going on.

erm no! These are people that have done work for Emaar and have yet to be paid for it - months down the line! You can't pay bills with an IOU now can you?

Doesnt matter. They should give developers benefit of the doubt.

On the other hand anyone owing money to developers is a thief and should pay asap.

A dirham is worth more to a big developer than some average Joe on the street, and thats why people should be lenient with money owed by developers but strict with people owing money to them

Blackburner, you think you are right about benefit of the doubt, but it is NOT in the mentality you grew up in.
Let me educate you:
People, banks, investors, contractors now have doubts, but it is to get anyhing back from developpers, so they will stay away from lending, investing or buying anything again in Dubai.
You just explained that a Dirham paid is not worth a Dirham owed when dealing with developers or Emiratis in general. Lenders who lent money to Dubai World learned about just that: they will have to accept only 0.40% return instead of the agreed 7%. So here, One investor Dirham is worth 5 fills owed. Emiratis call it a good deal, in the west it is called a fraud!.
With this mentality you will be back riding camels sooner than you think.

sage & onion wrote:http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592628-emaar-names-and-shames-first-service-fee-dodgers

Whilst on one hand it is probably illegal for the Developer to take such action, on the other hand I can understand their point also.

I suppose, but I just can't understand why they aren't accountable to owners for how the money is being spent. It is the right of the owners to have a say in how the maintenance fees are being spent, including hiring in other service providers that are more affordable or provide better service.

And that case with Lombard vs Emaar looks bizarre. Security guards jumping out of bushes, being stared at by security in McDonalds in the shopping mall, and the Springs owners committee wanted all blacks out of the Springs, and the white South African security manager was racist to him, as was the New Zealand guy? This Lombard might have a few screws loose...

kanelli wrote:

sage & onion wrote:http://www.arabianbusiness.com/592628-emaar-names-and-shames-first-service-fee-dodgers

Whilst on one hand it is probably illegal for the Developer to take such action, on the other hand I can understand their point also.

I suppose, but I just can't understand why they aren't accountable to owners for how the money is being spent. It is the right of the owners to have a say in how the maintenance fees are being spent, including hiring in other service providers that are more affordable or provide better service.

And that case with Lombard vs Emaar looks bizarre. Security guards jumping out of bushes, being stared at by security in McDonalds in the shopping mall, and the Springs owners committee wanted all blacks out of the Springs, and the white South African security manager was racist to him, as was the New Zealand guy? This Lombard might have a few screws loose...

The issue of the Springs is completely unknown to me, I personally have never have never suffered any kind of racial abuse against me or any one of my family members.

BlackburnRovers wrote:

arniegang wrote: Those who bought from 2006 onwards and didn't flip or resale need to see a doctor. It was their choice to pay a ridiculous sum of money for something that was artificially wayyyy over priced and now those same people are nit-picking over blah blah blah. .

Back in 2006, anyone who said that there would be a crash was seen as the one who needed to see a doctor. I am sure there are threads in DF as well, where people predicted a crash and recommended flipping and were called stupids, jealous of Dubai's success and what not.

Mate

You probably know i am an old git. In fact ,so old i have been buying and selling property for the last 32 years. Its what i do mate and... if you could be bothered and look at my post history, i was indeed one of the ones from late 2006/7 telling everyone i knew to not buy property anywhere. Yep everyone did think i had a mental problem.

With age comes experience BR, and when you loose money buying/selling whatever, it is the lessons you learn the quickest. I haver seen 3 major property crashes since the 80's in the UK. All followed a similar path to crash albeit for varying reasons.

The main point being in every case, it was the UK or any other market for that matter could not sustain the increase, history tells us that with every boom there always follows a bust. With regard to my dubai investments i simply followed the rules i had always followed in the past. In the end it came down to simple mathematics and my profit was so ridiculous only a fool would not have cashed in. Sadly many didn't in the belief that the last boom would go on forever - it didn't.

And do you know what ? i have still been making seriouly good money in the last two years in taking advantage of peoples stupidity and greed. Basically i dumped off a lot of my assets by Sept 2008, sat on the cash and then started buying the same type of portfolio back at a minimum of 33% cheaper upto a staggering 65% cheaper from the valuation at peak around the 1st Qtr of 2008.

I wont name the person who is still a regular here, but i begged them not to buy during 2007 and sadly they did. People back then were hypnotised in thinking they would make a fast buck and the boom would never end. People have hopefully learnt lessons but somehow i doubt it.

Sage and me were one of the first Brits to ever buy in Dubai way back in 2002. We both bought for different reasons. Sage had his roots in DXB and i wanted a holiday home. Sage is still in the same place and he doesn't care if the market drops a further 50% because he isn't selling and therefore the market to him is only a paper loss or gain and i bought purely for the investment. Mate my 2nd purchase and the cheapest was in JBR and i paid 375,000 dhs and sold for 890,000, the profit from this then paid for my first investment. I did a couple more then stopped and by late 2005 i had just the one place that i sold late summer of 2008.

I bet if i asked anyone to toss a coin 5 times, and they got the first 4 calls correct and then said "take out a mortgage for 2 million dhs on the 5th call to double your money" 99.999999999% would not. However if the next session involved the same with people who had at least 10 million dhs cash in bank, then i bet again the take up figure would be quite high. The investment morale being, if you got it and can afford to loose it -do it and if you haven't got it but need to borrow it, to do it - dont do it.

herve wrote:Blackburner, you think you are right about benefit of the doubt, but it is NOT in the mentality you grew up in.
Let me educate you:
People, banks, investors, contractors now have doubts, but it is to get anyhing back from developpers, so they will stay away from lending, investing or buying anything again in Dubai.
You just explained that a Dirham paid is not worth a Dirham owed when dealing with developers or Emiratis in general. Lenders who lent money to Dubai World learned about just that: they will have to accept only 0.40% return instead of the agreed 7%. So here, One investor Dirham is worth 5 fills owed. Emiratis call it a good deal, in the west it is called a fraud!.
With this mentality you will be back riding camels sooner than you think.

I thought you had spent sufficient time here to know what sarcasm was...........

arniegang wrote:Its horses for courses mate, at the end of the day i paid peanuts for my appartment and sold it for stupid money to some idiot with very few brain cells. The likes of Sage and me would or will never ever be out of pocket. Those who bought from 2006 onwards and didn't flip or resale need to see a doctor. It was their choice to pay a ridiculous sum of money for something that was artificially wayyyy over priced and now those same people are nit-picking over blah blah blah.

Those who bought from 2006 onwards probably are seeing a doctor... for depression.
Developers have comitted suicide.
Sobering thoughts.

BBR, did you fall over smack your head on the ground? Why is it acceptable for these developers to rip people off, owe millions and get away with it? Yet poor Joe Bloggs on the street faces prison for a mere bounced cheque! People's circumstances change, things happen but as we all know the UAE is intolerant to such things, they still so desperately want to be progressive but with regard to financial situations it's still very bacward - and you wonder why so many people ran away - because they had NO CHOICE!

Yes there is a general 90-120 day payment delay here - it's 2 to 3 months in most other places - but when even after this period these people don't pay, is it any wonder people are struggling. 50% payment up front, the rest on completion of the job.

Come on fair is fair - where are the debt collectors, prison sentences etc for these developers who've fleeced people out of their hard earned cash!

Chocoholic wrote:BBR, did you fall over smack your head on the ground? Why is it acceptable for these developers to rip people off, owe millions and get away with it? Yet poor Joe Bloggs on the street faces prison for a mere bounced cheque! People's circumstances change, things happen but as we all know the UAE is intolerant to such things, they still so desperately want to be progressive but with regard to financial situations it's still very bacward - and you wonder why so many people ran away - because they had NO CHOICE!

Yes there is a general 90-120 day payment delay here - it's 2 to 3 months in most other places - but when even after this period these people don't pay, is it any wonder people are struggling. 50% payment up front, the rest on completion of the job.

Come on fair is fair - where are the debt collectors, prison sentences etc for these developers who've fleeced people out of their hard earned cash!

Sigh.......i was being sracastic; it was a satire on the ppl here who consider themselves more important than others. When they are in a hurry, they will flash others like maniacs, when they want to cruise at 60 kph , they will be the ones getting annoyed at ppl asking them to speed up .

look what you forigners are doing to this place...you've changed everything this socity use to stand for. shame on dubai thinking you ppl are any good.
Emmar or other construction companies ,What would you expect when let foreigners run the show uncontrolled ? like most ,they will rip-off the place fraud and leave, no surprise here really. I hope Dubai will learn from those mistakes.
And it aint just me saying that… for god sack even Discovery channel made a special TV show about you ,it's called banged up aboard LOOOOL

uaekid wrote:look what you forigners are doing to this place...you've changed everything this socity use to stand for. shame on dubai thinking you ppl are any good.
Emmar or other construction companies ,What would you expect when let foreigners run the show uncontrolled ? like most ,they will rip-off the place fraud and leave, no surprise here really. I hope Dubai will learn from those mistakes.
And it aint just me saying that… for god sack even Discovery channel made a special TV show about you ,it's called banged up aboard LOOOOL

Your "society" stood for what exactly ?

A bunch of pearl diving, contraband smuggling, goatherds who until 30 odd years ago had to be governed by foreigners to stop you knocking lumps out of each other!

Emaar was, is and will be run be Emiratis and it's a fact that fraud, embezzlement and theft was as rife there as ever it was at Nakheel, Dubai Properties, Deyaar etc etc

And who do you think it was that benefitted from these frauds, yup, Emiratis : or are you saying that fraud is not fraud or is ok if it is perpetrated by a lokal.

Why do you constantly build these soap boxes to advertise your own stupidity ??? Are you so remote from reality that you do not know when to keep your mouth shut ? Get your own house in order before you start knocking mine.

To wit, 'Banged up Abroad' highlights the contrasts in the judicial systems around the world and points out the dangers of ignorance of the laws of other lands .... that you seem to think its subtitle is "All Foreigners are Bad" is rather sad and pathetic given that your government has an 'on demand' exit plan for UAE Lokals in trouble with the authorities in other countries, new passports in an other name to shepherd the guilty away from the scene of the crime.

So my little cockroach - s0d off until you get your hypocritical peanut brain educated to some of the basic facts of life.

uaekid always has his pom poms out shouting "Go U, Go A, Go E" Yay!!! Critical thinking is not his forte.

And those pom poms are in red, green, black and white but are looking a little ragged from over shaking recently...

Corruption is endemic in every society, the UAE just happens to be one where it is almost legitimized and actually often admired. The problem is defining who is actually NOT on the take!



Knight