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event horizon · Jul 10, 2010

The detention of Kurdish children in Turkish prisons stirred indignation amongst human rights groups and raised concerns about the future of the country with an entire generation brought up in jail.

Hundreds of Kurdish children, some as young as 11 years old, have been prosecuted by Turkish authorities as part of the country’s clampdown on rebels in the restive southeast. The children are put in jail under Turkey’s anti-terrorist laws which, human rights groups contend, are in violation of the U.N. conventions of children.

The children, according to activists, are tried in anti-terrorist courts and are sent to adult jails. Their files are treated as confidential and lawyers have very little access to the details of their cases as well as to the defendants themselves.

The detention of children, lawyers and activists argue, is bound to place an enormous burden on the state in the future as a whole generation will be brought up in prison, said Ismail Durgun, head of the Hakkari Bar Association, which has defended several of the arrested children.

“The state is not punishing the children, but is punishing itself,” Durgun added. “When they enter prison they are just kids. When they leave they are militants.”

Analysts agree with Durgun and point out that children are indoctrinated by older prison inmates and decide to take part in the armed struggle after their release. This is intensified by the harsh treatment they receive and which increases their resentment against the government.

Durgun refuted the government’s claims that the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) uses children and that all the detainees belong to the separatist organization only because they might have taken part in a protest in favor of the group.

No fair trial

The cases of these children, Durgun added, are not dealt with justly whether in terms of trials, access to lawyers, or even in the children’s awareness of their situation.

"These children don't get a fair trial. The files are secret so we can't prepare the case and sometimes there is no evidence. Children don't even understand why they are in prison."

According to the testimonies of child detainees, conditions are extremely harsh inside prisons. They wait for months to be put on trial and several of them are released only to be arrested again.

In addition to the limited access they have to lawyers, the children’s parents do not in many cases speak Turkish and cannot communicate with the authorities in order to find a solution to their ordeals.

Durdu Kavak, the chief prosecutor in the predominantly Kurdish Diyarbakir, the largest city in the southeast and the venue of most trials, said he was not authorized to give details about the cases of detained Kurdish children without prior permission from the justice minister in Ankara.

The government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan passed several laws to grant the Kurdish minority more rights, hoping for an imminent end to the 26-year old armed struggle and said that child prosecution laws need to be changed.

The parliament is currently looking into a bill that calls for the reduction of penalties inflicted upon children in terrorism-related offences and for the placement of under-age detainees in juvenile facilities.

“We do not want to lose our kids,” said Justice Minister Sadullah Ergin. “We want to win them back but families must be aware of the consequences of their children's actions."

Activists fear that in the wake of the recent upsurge in PKK, the bill will not be met with enthusiasm by ultra-nationalists who support military suppression of the group, which is listed as a terrorist organization by Turkey, the United States, and the European Union.

The condition of Kurdish children, together with the suppression of Kurds in general, constitutes one of the several hindrances to Turkey’s hopes of joining the European Union.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/ ... 13244.html

shafique · Jul 10, 2010

Well, this is what I wrote back in Feb this year:

shafique wrote:On the oppression of the Kurds, I have to say that I have a good track record on this - I was speaking out against this before it became fashionable to back the Kurds. I was aware of Saddam gassing Kurds when he was still a friend of the west.

I've also spoken out against the oppression and killing of Kurds by the Turkish army. There the West turns a blind eye - with Nato planes even leaving the 'no fly zone' to allow Turkish planes to come in and bomb areas. Despite this, the Kurds are still pretty strong and established in northern Iraq, but not in southern Turkey.

The third main area of the Kurds is in Syria. And yes, there too they have been oppressed.

Ultimately, the blame lies with the powers that deliberately split the Kurdish majority area into three countries and didn't give the Kurds their homeland. This was not the Muslim's doing! ;

If it was up to me, I'd give the Kurds their homeland. However everyone is tasty-scared of the Kurds becoming a political force again - and being in charge of the oil/gas rich region of Kurdistan. If I remember correctly, they are the one group of people that Alexander the Great failed to conquer, and the colonial powers recognised that that it would be better to divide and rule than to respect the demographics on the ground and give them their sovereign country.

So, FD/Eh - do you agree with me that Turkey, Iraq and Syria should all let the Kurds have their homeland - or were you expecting me to not criticise Muslim nations for their injustices against minorities?

I can see the parallel with Israel's injustices - but it's not quite the same is it? Israel is breaking international laws by building on the 22% of the land that was occupied in 1967 and trying to keep it despite clear laws which say land cannot be acquired by force. Palestinians were allocated 45% of the land by the UN and they are willing to settle for 22% - but the Kurds never had the UN declare them a state.

That said, kudos for bringing up the plight of the kurds (even if it is from a 14 year old report) - and I am all for highlighting the plight of oppressed minorities/occupied people - be they Kurds or Palestinian or, for that matter, East Timoreans (the latter having finally got some justice)

dubai-politics-talk/arabization-syria-t40527.html#p326528

and

Oh - or perhaps you were more interested in condemning Syria only for what they did in the 60's? I'm happy to join you in that condemnation, but surely you'll join me in speaking out against all injustices against Kurds, Palestinians etc?

And throughout that thread eh and FD refused to condemn Turkey.

But since Israel attacked Turkish vessels in May, now Turkey is open for attack by the fanbois.

Edit:
In fact, when I posted a long extract detailing the oppression of Kurds in Turkey:
dubai-politics-talk/arabization-syria-t40527-60.html#p327799
..eh replied that he wanted evidence that Muslims condemned the oppression (not a word against Turkey, just an Islamophobic rant!)

Oh, the stench of hypocrisy is now overwhelming. But leaving that aside, glad to see that now Kurds in Turkey are now 'worthy' victims for the young fanbois! (But isn't your head spinning with all the recent flip-flops?)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Jul 10, 2010

This summed up the situation in February quite nicely:

shafique wrote:I tell you Kurds are dying and you ask for articles from Muslims!

That's so transparently islamophobic it's unreal. Do you know what the religious views of the authors of the original reports were? Are Kurds not predominantly Muslim? (I could have made much more of the fact that the weapons killing the Kurds come from the US and UK, and the killing done by allies - but what's the point in exposing even more of your hypocrisy?)

You guys should be ashamed at the blatant hypocrisy you've shown in this thread. It is only the Islamophobic 'fanbois' that have hesitated at condemning all the instances of oppression of Kurds.

Shame on you.

event horizon · Jul 10, 2010

I'm still curious how asking for evidence that Muslims actually gave a hoot about their Muslim 'brothers' is 'Islamophobic'. I'm simply claiming that Muslims did not care about the Kurds back in the eighties and I asked for evidence from *you* when you claimed the opposite.

Perhaps you can explain that to me - while agreeing with me now that the world (ie., loons, Muslims and other assorted blame Israeli firsters) largely ignore the treatment of the Kurds, either under Saddam Husein's regime - when the Kurds were ethnically cleansed - or now a days, where Turkey is supposedly imprisoning Kurdish children because they attended a political rally or something.

Yet, I hear no calls of protests, no marches, no unruly mobs, no UN special sessions, no EU finger pointing (ok, maybe the EU is saying something, but that's only because they don't want Turkey in their union), no Syrian or Iranian condemnations.

Nada, zilch, squat.

Do you agree or disagree?

shafique · Jul 10, 2010

As I said back in February, Muslims have indeed been highlighting the plights of Kurds. I was in London when Saddam gassed the Kurds and remember clearly the outrage at the lack of condemnation in the West or by fellow Arab leaders at the atrocity. The West supplied the gas and government reactions were muted - however the man on the street who knew what was going on was indeed appalled.

I'm glad that you've now changed your mind about Kurds in Turkey - but your words from February are still there to haunt you.

You do realise that Kurds are predominantly Muslim and you're vitriol against Muslims also exposes your hypocrisy:

event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.

Your crocodile tears for Kurdish children seems to have more to do with Israel pissing off the Turks than any humanity.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jul 10, 2010

Really? I thought East Germany supplied the gas...

But hey, I understand the need for Muslims to blame someone else. I mean, it's not like Saddam Husein is an independent moral actor.

Since he was a Muslim, it wasn't his fault he used mustard and VX gas on his own people.

Oh, and care to cite a single Muslim protest in reaction of the gas attacks? Come on, I'll even extend this to Husein's suppression of the south after the Gulf War.

I mean, Muslims get excited over a cartoon. Surely a few thousand dead Kurds should be an easy catalyst for Muslims to riot/protest.

shafique · Jul 10, 2010

LOL - so you're crocodile tears have been exposed and there appears to be no shame that in February you refused to condemn Turkish attacks on Kurds and now are trying to take the moral high ground.

What part of the explanations that myself and other Muslims opposed the attacks against Kurds by Saddam when they took place? How does that change the fact that only a few months ago you were refusing to join me in condemning all attacks against Kurds?

Pathetic.

Cheers,
Shafique

Mecruh · Jul 10, 2010

You never go to a place where you cant know anything , so you shouldnt comment unfounded ...

Flying Dutchman · Jul 10, 2010

Why does my name always have to came back in threads I never posted in?

* sigh *

But for the record, not that is matters very much in this thread about Turkey, Kurds and Muslim hypocricy amongst others, since somebody is obsessive:

I always supported the EU worries about Turkish treatment of Kurds. And the human rights issue (including the Kurds) in Turkey should be requirement for Turkish entry into the EU.

shafique · Jul 10, 2010

^Well, in this case my quote above was from a thread you started and your name appears in my quotation.

FD, I went back and looked at what you wrote at the time when I invited you and eh to join me in condemning the treatment of Kurds by the Turks. I couldn't see in that thread where you said you disagreed with eh who was at the time refusing to condemn the Turkish actions.

I'm glad that we are all on the same page now - even if it took Israel to piss off the Turks to get eh on board.

However, the only hypocrisy I can see in this thread is on the part of the recent convert to Kurdish oppression in Turkey, and not on the part of Muslims who condemned the atrocities committed against Kurds even when they were taking place by Saddam when he was 'our guy' in the Mid East.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jul 12, 2010

shafique wrote:LOL - so you're crocodile tears have been exposed and there appears to be no shame that in February you refused to condemn Turkish attacks on Kurds and now are trying to take the moral high ground.

What part of the explanations that myself and other Muslims opposed the attacks against Kurds by Saddam when they took place? How does that change the fact that only a few months ago you were refusing to join me in condemning all attacks against Kurds?

Pathetic.

Cheers,
Shafique

What crocodile tears?

I never said that I support imprisoning children because they happened to have attended a political rally.

ROFL!

What I did say is that Turkey has a right to protect her borders.

You must be applying your loon version of 'logic' if my previous statement concerning Turkey led you to believe the following - don't worry, I kind of figured you would have reacted the way you did.

Ignoring your wild and unfounded claims regarding Iraq and chemical weapons, it's interesting to note the lack of outrage this story has generated in the world.

Where are the leftist protesters?

The UN meetings?

The intellectual elites in their ivory towers typing out scathing blog posts?

The Muslim 'rage-boys' burning Turkish flags and effigies of the Turk PM?

Oh, and lest we forget, the flotillas? Yes, won't someone pleeeeaase think of the flotillas !?

I mean, come on. Muslims kill hundreds when a privately owned newspaper prints some cartoons in distant Denmark, but no peeps when Turkey imprisons children?

Geez, one might conclude that Muslims have a selective concern for human rights (if cartoons qualify as 'human rights').

But that would be 'Islamophobic'.

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