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shafique wrote:ROM,

I'm a little perplexed why you think it is anachronistic to cleanse oneself after going to the toilet.. the link you provided goes into a lot of detail (more than I have seen in one place, so it was interesting!)

All it says is that one should be clean and ensure cleanliness.. it is a concept that the upper classes in the West have used for at least a century - bidets are common in the houses of the better off people in the West, and is almost a universal concept in the East. Japan, for example, cleansing oneself is a cultural norm - and they have quite sophisticated toilets with built in jets of water to clean!

The interesting point is that Islam taught this level of cleanliness 1500 years ago and only recently have the west caught on to the benefits of cleanliness.

So, far from being not relevant today - I would argue that the levels of cleanliness required in Islam is as relevant today as it was 1500 years ago. Otherwise one is arguing that it is permissable and desirable to go around with soiled undergarments... ewwhh!

(Note that the link you provided says that the use of toilet paper is allowed.. so I'm not sure what you objection is? )



Take care..

Shafique

My intent was not that cleanliness is not relevant but, as I understand Mohammad stated plainly that there is NO other method allowed under Islamic teachings besides using THREE STONES.

That is the point I was attempting to make, that the use of modern technics are forbidden and yet most people would never think to use three stones today.

Imagine Istinja stone dispensers in every public restroom !

The website that I cited seems to have updated the Sunnah and abandoned what Mohammad precisely stated was the only method that shall be employed.

Maybe I'm wrong ???

Being protected in delivering the revelation of God;

Being protected in saying any thing, no matter if he is in the state of anger or just in the state of giving an opinion;

Being protected from committing any sort of sin, even the minor ones.

What I understand from Quran is that the infallibility of the prophets is only at the first level and not the other levels.

imo the 3rd too, and depends on the second if it is related to a revelation of God.
Prophets don't commit sins, but they can commit mistakes.

Quote from UI article
The Prophet (pbuh) never committed any mistake in the deliverance of God's message. It is in this sphere that, according to the Qur'an God closely guards His prophets Himself as well as through His angels to see whether His message is accurately delivered or not (Al-Jinn 72: 27 - 28). Besides this sphere, as a human being, a prophet may commit a mistake. However, if this mistake has even an indirect effect on the message of God that the prophet is deputed to deliver, then God corrects him of such a mistake, without any delay.

Am I reading this correctly? That which is contained within the Quran is Infallible but, any and all references made in the Sunnah/Hadith are not covered under this infallibility test unless it completely jibes with the Quran ?

We don't consider sunnah (or hadith) infallible source, God never promised to protect any other sources except prophets and quran in this regard.

I recommend you go through the following article: http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... le&aid=248

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
My intent was not that cleanliness is not relevant but, as I understand Mohammad stated plainly that there is NO other method allowed under Islamic teachings besides using THREE STONES.

That is the point I was attempting to make, that the use of modern technics are forbidden and yet most people would never think to use three stones today.

Imagine Istinja stone dispensers in every public restroom !

The website that I cited seems to have updated the Sunnah and abandoned what Mohammad precisely stated was the only method that shall be employed.

Maybe I'm wrong ???

ROM - you are wrong. No where does it state that the only method is 3 stones. The preferred method is water, unclean things are forbidden (such as bone and other organic material), failing water then clean inorganic material such as stones or even toilet paper are ok.

Islam does not teach that we suspend our faculties of reasoning - rather we follow what is in the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith.

As the Prophet did not state that the ONLY method of cleansing oneself was 3 stones, I think your point here is moot.

You interestingly show that Islam was centuries ahead of the west in terms of personal hygene.. so I thank you for bringing a subject I would normally not discuss, and I hope not to really discuss any more..



take care

Shafique

3 points to make

1) Concerning the Black stone:
Yes it is being used to mark going around the Kabba, so you can count i did that

2) Concerning the black stone to eliminate sins:
This would be out of islam as you are making a companion to god, as beliving that anyone would wipe out your sins but gos is forbidden and great sin.

3) Concerning the Hygene thing: Will not discuss it
Any sunna we have from our Prophet is being rationalized, islam is a religon for all ages and times.
one of the discussion is the "islamic dress" as the Galabeya or muslim gown (like the locals in UAE) but it is not. this what was available at this time and may be if there were jeans or anything it would have been used.
It is noted in the Sunnah, that Prophet Muhammed PBUH was notted wearing 14 (correct me if i'm wrong) different costums at different occasions and even prayed with some or one of them.

Point is, there is not harm in using modern methods as long as they are not conflicting with the teachings.
Like be stupid and say that we can't use cars and only camels..
Cheers

Shaf, Thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding the previous post

Folks, I readily admit that my perceptions of Islam may have been skewed by my association with radical islamists since 9/11

I obtained a copy of this PDF file: Quran - Full Text Arabic And English - Best Translation
http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1YI9 ... IU5C4MKQA1

As well as have been posting (and getting banned multiple times) @ http://www.ummah.net/forum/

My getting banned multiple times had nothing to do with my interpretation of the Quran but, in my defense against the killing of innocent people for religious reasons.

Please forgive any faulty knowledge I may exude but, it all stems from my participation among those muslims which I encountered @ http://www.ummah.net/forum/

I am not ignorant of the facts regarding the manipulation of the Middle East by the Western Powers.

Personally, I regard any following of a Religion to be individual and not GROUP-THINK.

I do not believe any Religion should mandate personal behavior upon anyone but, offer a guide to your own ability to modify ones behavior according to the individuals beliefs in what is good & bad.

One of my biggest complaints is (as I've been told) the strict enforcement upon women to cover themselves completely in order to NOT intice MEN into sinful thoughts.
I believe, ALL men who do have said thoughts are the very ones who need to check their own minds and hearts and not find that the woman has done something sinful.
The SIN takes root in the mind of the individual, not the conduct or dress of the woman.


I do hope you will instruct me further and broaden my views on Islam.
Yet, you must admit the worst of Islam is what is brought out into the conciousness of the world recently and (at least here in the West) it appears that the moderate, rational Muslim community does nothing to negate these concepts.

You can see my signature below : In a Democracy, Silence IS Permission

The same can be said of ISLAM.

In ISLAM, Silence IS Permission

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
You can see my signature below : In a Democracy, Silence IS Permission

The same can be said of ISLAM.

In ISLAM, Silence IS Permission

You are stepping on very thin ice Richard. I will be careful now.

Read the rules... Insulting/flaming results in a locked post. This is a flame of Islam.

You have been warned.

One of my biggest complaints is (as I've been told) the strict enforcement upon women to cover themselves completely in order to NOT intice MEN into sinful thoughts.
I believe, ALL men who do have said thoughts are the very ones who need to check their own minds and hearts and not find that the woman has done something sinful.
The SIN takes root in the mind of the individual, not the conduct or dress of the woman.

Man, instead of posting, employ some of your time to read this forum, alot of topics about women veil or covering.

Concerning other points.....

Well, you can educate yourself about islam, i don't think information are scarce or not there, you just have to read or talk to a shiekh "one that is trusted and modern to be able to understand where you are coming from".

But as long as you are reading about islam to find loopholes or imperfection.... then you are not going anywhere.

Yet, you must admit the worst of Islam is what is brought out into the conciousness of the world recently and (at least here in the West) it appears that the moderate, rational Muslim community does nothing to negate these concepts.

There is not "Worst of Islam" whatever is there, is Good.
Wrong practice... might be, but not "Worst of Islam" God is the Creator, he gave us the manual for the perfect life and we try to follow.

We have ideologies that we belive in that you can't adhere or understand. When someone talk about Jihad, or Matryar, you just think about terrorism. You can't aprehend our logic because you just closed minded. Try to see it from our eyes not yours. then you will be able to judge.

May God Lead you to the Right path.

Cheers

Liban, stop it, once again you make threats when you don't agree with someone elses opinion. ROM is entitled to his opinion and he's merely stating things as to his interpretation of things whilst asking questions - what's wrong with that?

Half the threads you post in should be locked because of your constant flaming, (you flame christianity and other religions - this is not an Islam only forum!)stop using double standards.

It's a good discussion and you're the only one with the problem, so let other people continue. You're opinion is too one sided and biased for you to be a moderator of this forum. A good moderator will let everyone have their say, it's not upto you to wade in everytime you see something you don't like - and I;m sure others in this thread will agree on this.

Shaf, Yshimy - good stuff!

I agree with Choco.

I have NEVER flamed Christianity. So don't be a liar and put words in my mouth.

Also I am not threatening, I am simply stating that flames are forbidden and this is a flame against Islam.

And will the three muskateers get off their high horses and face the fact that they are bigots.

Choco, no need to even address Liban anymore. He's an angry, aggressive, slanderous person - there is nothing we can do about that.

So STOP RESPONDING TO ME...

You guys are so hilarious....

You are an attention whore. Maybe you "get off" at your computer when you rile people up. Hope you have some tissues there to clean up after.

Speaking of attention whores, funny how you are around to respond within minutes of my post... SUCKA!!!

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:Folks, I readily admit that my perceptions of Islam may have been skewed by my association with radical islamists since 9/11

SNIP

I am not ignorant of the facts regarding the manipulation of the Middle East by the Western Powers.

...

I do hope you will instruct me further and broaden my views on Islam.
Yet, you must admit the worst of Islam is what is brought out into the conciousness of the world recently and (at least here in the West) it appears that the moderate, rational Muslim community does nothing to negate these concepts.

Richard, I'm glad that your journey has brought you to this forum. I hope that when you find preconceived perceptions to be mistaken, you will change your views and convey these mini-epithanies to all your contacts and compatriots.

I urge you to go back and re-read my posts to you - especially the early ones where I take pains to give you examples of terrorist activities amongst all religious groups.

There are many westerners on this forum and all of the guys I've spoken to here do not make the link that Arab = terrorist or that Islam = terrorism.

I think that your statements quoted above are widely held views in the States and in some parts of Europe. However, note that those people here who have daily contact with Muslims are telling you in no uncertain terms that these views are wrong.

Can you please ponder on the simple point that all IRA terrorist activities were done by Catholics - and yet, has anyone equated Catholicism with terrorism? I don't think even the Protestant targets made this connection.

Now, for people to continue to believe a falsehood when faced with clear and unequivocable evidence of the truth is a tragedy. It could also reflect xenophobia at worst, and just low down ignorance at best.

My assessment is that it is the latter that afflicts your countrymen - ignorance and arrogance (the American way IS the best way and let's not allow any facts to get in the way).

I hope I am wrong in my assessment - and there are many American colleagues of mine who are educated and well informed - but your statments above aren't the first time I've come across these views.

I commend you for at least asking the questions. I hope you listen to the answers. I hope you hear what is said.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Liban wrote:I have NEVER flamed Christianity. So don't be a liar and put words in my mouth.

Also I am not threatening, I am simply stating that flames are forbidden and this is a flame against Islam.

And will the three muskateers get off their high horses and face the fact that they are bigots.

Yes you have! YOU flame everything that is not Islamic or Muslim or that you don't just like, so stop being a hypocrit.

If you look at Shaf's post, did he get annoyed - No! Did he get upset or say ROM was saying things against Islam? - No!

Liban it's just you, you're too sensitive. You should follow the example of people like Shaf, you are willing to answer questions and don't judge people for what they ask or for their differing opinions - I commend people like him - I think he's a fantastic example! Well done Shaf!

I agree with much of what you say Shafique, except one point. It isn't just Americans who feel that they know everything - who are ignorant and arrogant. This is a stereotype that doesn't really fit. I've met people across many nationalities and many faiths who are ignorant and arrogant. A person's life experience, travel outside of their own area, and their investigation and questioning of what is around them are the only things that can help people become less ignorant or arrogant. Not everyone has the opportunity to travel, and not everyone likes to think outside the box or use critical thinking. EDIT - Unfortunately this is true, and this is why there is so much more conflict in this world than there needs to be. Everyone should be more critical of the status quo and try to be more tolerant.

kanelli wrote:I agree with much of what you say Shafique, except one point. It isn't just Americans who feel that they know everything - who are ignorant and arrogant. This is a stereotype that doesn't really fit. I've met people across many nationalities and many faiths who are ignorant and arrogant. A person's life experience, travel outside of their own area, and their investigation and questioning of what is around them are the only things that can help people become less ignorant or arrogant. Not everyone has the opportunity to travel, and not everyone likes to think outside the box or use critical thinking.

I do agree that sadly ignorance has no limitation to any one nationality, colour, race or creed you got to admit Americans on a per capita basis as perceived by the rest of the world to have a higher degree than most, ROM before you start frantically typing a reply I’m talking about this perception from other western countries, Canada, UK, Germany, etc..

I can give 2 personal examples:

1. I was doing some volunteer work for the 88 Olympics, a countless number of Americans from places like Montana, a 90 minute drive away. Were calling up to ask questions like do we have running water? Do we live in igloos?

2. I have a friend of mine who moved to the UK around the same time I moved here, being Canadian and because we have similar accents to Americans (I don’t think so personally) people would meet her and say hi, nice to meet you what part of the US are you from? When she replied she was Canadian immediately the responses were thank god or I’m so sorry to have insulted you.

Think about it, why do so many American travelers going to Europe, Asia, Africa stick Canadian flags on their packs?

My fear is the US will eventually realize that hey Canada has more oil than Iraq, why don’t we just invade them, Sure the last time the US tried to invade Canada, we pushed them back and burnt down their Whitehouse, sadly I don’t think we would be as successful against another attack.

Yes, the stereotype might fit a somewhat large population of Americans - but there are a heck of a lot of Americans I've met many open-minded and humble Americans, although admittedly they are living abroad and say they don't want to move back to the States.

I've also met ignorant and arrogant Spaniards, Canadians, Australians, Finns, Pakistanis, Lebanese etc.

Aaw! No Kanelli-all Aussies are nice!

Chocoholic wrote:

Liban wrote:Yes you have! YOU flame everything that is not Islamic or Muslim or that you don't just like, so stop being a hypocrit.

I have NEVER flamed Christianity.

Prove to me that I did...

kanelli wrote:
I've also met ignorant and arrogant Spaniards, Canadians, Australians, Finns, Pakistanis, Lebanese etc.

More igorant Americans per capita than others...

That is a big ask. Kanelli would have to search though 2764 posts and do a cut and paste.

She seems to have quite a bit of time on her hands...

Don't we all?

GAB, Liban was talking to Choco in that post.

Sorry losing the plot amongst other things!! Fayz's picture(another thread) has disturbed me greatly. It's not good to shock old ladies-they can have accidents you know!!

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:
I've also met ignorant and arrogant Spaniards, Canadians, Australians, Finns, Pakistanis, Lebanese etc.

More igorant Americans per capita than others...

And more people focusing on the Americans and ignoring the others.

Aren't we being ignorant and arrogant to blame only one nation and its people for all the ills of the world, overlooking our own nation's hypocricy and own contributions to world or regional problems?

Choco, Regarding Mecca... its a very interesting Question.. really thanks for bringing it up.

Adding to what all of my brothers who rightly said many true things.. i would like to add some point plz:

In the ceremony of pilgrimage (Hajj), Muslims rotate around Kaa`abah for 7 times... I myself was trying to answer some questions about it... so one day i was watching a documentary and i found out that every creature has a journy to perform every year.. in a very accurate steps and places... i was even thinking deeper and i found that every thing starting from the electron rotates around the atom up to the galaxies do rotate in a certin manar.


Regarding what Koran Says about (Hajj):

Koran, Chapter 3, Verses:

[94] If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to Allah, they are indeed unjust wrong-doers.

[95] Say: "Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Ibrahim, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."

[96] The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka; full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

[97] In it are Signs manifest; (for example), the Station of Ibrahim; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah, those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

[98] Say: "O People of the Book! why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"

[99] Say: "O ye People of the Book! why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do."

[100] O ye who believe! if ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

[101] And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a Way that is straight.

-----------
The Story of Mecca and Kaaba (The black architecture)

Koran, Chapter 2, verses:


[124] And remember that Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: he said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

[125] Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Ibrahim as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Ibrahim and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in Prayer).


[126] And remember Ibrahim said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its People with fruits' such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith, for a while will I grant them their Pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire, an evil destination (indeed)!"

[127] And remember Ibrahim and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

[128] "Our Lord! Make of us Muslims bowing to Thy (Will); and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (Will); and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

[129] "Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them: for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

We also belive that in Mecca there is a mountin which we climp during Hajj called (Jabel Al Rahmah = The mountain of Mercy) in which Adam and Eva - My peace and blessings be upon them - had met after they ate from the apple tree and were sent to earth.

Intimacy