RobbyG wrote:I didn't know you were so blatantly ignorant nor biased.
You laid it out in front of us now. Thanks for that.
Give Shafique a hand in your unwillingness to see the circumstances under which they operated. You two are pirates!
And I thought behind that obviously biased exterior you were actually capable of rational and inteligent thought !
Boy you proved me wrong. Doh !
See you gotta move beyond your habit on grasping on to one thing ( Here its, Israel acted propely, did you watch the video, Israel acted properly, did you see the video, Israel acted properly, did you see the video )and move beyond that and look at the bigger picture.
Dunno if you've noticed other people can be pirates..oops I meant Parrots too
Was the flotilla being realistic that they would be allowed into gaza with out any altercations. NO ! If they were peace activist, did they act like, NO.
But des not change the fact the Israel farked up BIG TIME, no too ways about it. They can release 3D Imax footage of the raid and still wont change that fact. Wait for the flotilla to enter Israeli waters. I know Israel has a lot of big grey boats with big guns on them . Do a little sabre rattling. Fire a few warning shots across some bows. Show them your willing to use deadly force. If they still carried on then atleast Isael would have a case and would be able to cry foul.
One would think that the IDF and the Israeli Navy after so long being engaged in war would be able to handle a few civillian unarmed ships.
Like I said they shot them selves in the foot by conducting this poorly thought out botched raid. Now even if there actually was a nuclear bomb in one of the boats. Nobodys going to believe it, save for the few fanbois like we have hear. Infact they probally think they already do !
desertdudeshj wrote:Infidel ? Now your just adding what you want to hear ( and probally see )
I know your doing your regular routine and trying to ruffle some feathers by being the antagonist here. But come on man 4th largest Army decends on a group of civilians armed with pitch forks and sticks who were trying to supply some relief to other civilians under seige and kills a bunch of them. Thats just plain wrong and against humanity man. Just plain wrong.
But then again when did Israel ever care about that or showed any.
Haha, now I know what you meant with 'adding what you want to hear'.
I called you an infidel for not willing to understand the simple request from the Israeli navy to follow orders and unload at Ashdod port.
That was not supposed to be part of the text.
Boy you went way back trying to dig up something on me
Sure mate if it makes you happy, just shows your just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Boi ! haven't you heard the old saying that wining an argument on the net is like wining in the special olympics. Even if you win, your still retared !
Don't hold back G let it all out if it helps to sleep at night Post some redneck "pwned" pics aswell to complete your "victory"
LoL, love the frustration coming out of you. So typical for people who are blatantly ignorant for simple facts.
Anyway, here's some Israeli talking about the raid. I don't know if its fake, but for you everything is fake when it affects Israeli's, so for what its worth: A witness account for DD...
Alright fine I'll play with you G. Put down the joint and let see what are the facts ? I'll try to keep it simple for you. Was not a Turkish vessel raided in international waters which amounts to Piracy ?
Yes or No.
* Now don't get any hints from your troll buddy EH and start beating around the bush, I've dont have shaf like patience to indulge you in any such activities
Under international law it is permissible to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.”
Israel notified the flotilla that their goods could still be transferred to gaza after a routine security inspection.
Israel could consider this as an act of war from Turkey.
Its not about International waters alone. You forget that they intended to breach the naval blockade. That justifies Israel to follow up on the raid and inspect the vessles denying to cooperate.
No, we are still at step number one. So it is STILL about intenational water. Lets not jump the gun ol Rob. How do you know they would breach maybe they would wait outside territorial waters and negotiate a peacefull way into Gaza How do you know ? And now we will never know I thought you worked only with facts and not assumptions ? I'm disapointed in you Robby Tsk Tsk
UN Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone
Did you forget to take your A.D.D pills again G. Do try to stay with the topic and concentrate We are talking about international waters here.
Again facts G. Maybe be they were bluffing, who knows ? Like I said do try to keep up with the matter at hand dude. Like I said I thought you were a hard core facts person, please don't prove me wrong. If the flotilla had breached and was attacked in Israeli teritorial waters we would'nt be having this talk now would we ?
You said it was not piracy or an act of war ( ok I added that later so sue me ! ) because FD says so. I posted the UN Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone and read it too. There is no mention of the Contiguos Zone being extended in any circumstances and you have yet failed to provide anything that backs that up.
Flying Dutchman wrote:Typical, always the same kind of people getting violent or threaten implicitly with it... then when they do use it under the pretence of peace and get there behinds kicked, they start crying for their mammy!
Blablabla, typical pointless comments of yours. How about say something meaningful or just shut up
Misery Called Life wrote:And Robby you questioned the motives behind Turkey's actions? It's Votesssss!
PS Rob, impressive arguments!
Good point MCL! That Erdohan fella from Turkey is a freak also. In his earlier years he said he wanted to create an Islamic state and he was using democracy for doing so! He also tried to replace the Constitutional courts judges to his favor once.
Well he's got a vote base and he can hardly afford to alienate them, needless to add he gains valuable brownie points doing all this.
That said the current happenings within Turkey all hardly seem to be a spur of the moment thing. It all seems very strategically planned to give his political party maximum mileage. Besides when you actually watch the video the vengeance with which the protesters attacked the commandos, in a way was a clear implication that at some higher level they were guaranteed political protection. They hardly expected the Vessel Marmara to be so ambushed and that is clear from the messages posted by jornos on-board. Upto the last hour they were pretty certain that Israel would not dare ambush their vessel. Then when the ambush actually took place again under normal circumstances, no civilian would dare trash up a commando in the high waters. So again it in a way elucidates the point that for some reason the protesters felt safe, despite literally entering a war zone.
Another reason is turkeys growing clout, Obama's first international visit was to Turkey and then Turkey's warm relations with Russia who are building a nuclear power plant for them. Surely with so much international clout, Turkey can certainly afford to play around (they'd be foolish if they did'nt). But that damned Zionists, they just don't stick to the script do they?
Article 16 1.The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent. 2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters, the coastal State shall also have the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to those waters is subject.
The question is not whether it is international waters, but whether it is neutral waters. Flotilla was not boarded in neutral waters...RTFM!
In the mean time it becomes more clear that people on the boat wanted to die, rather than deliver food±
"The [Gaza] flotilla commander said yesterday: 'We will not allow the Zionists to get near us and we will use resistance against them.' How will they wage resistance? They will resist with their fingernails. They are people who seek Martyrdom for Allah, as much as they want to reach Gaza, but the first [Martyrdom] is more desirable."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), May 30, 2010
-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:55 am --
symmetric wrote:How about say something meaningful or just shut up
Yep, violence and wanting to shut people up...must be a cultural thing or something...
desertdudeshj wrote:Did you forget to take your A.D.D pills again G. Do try to stay with the topic and concentrate We are talking about international waters here.
Again facts G. Maybe be they were bluffing, who knows ? Like I said do try to keep up with the matter at hand dude. Like I said I thought you were a hard core facts person, please don't prove me wrong. If the flotilla had breached and was attacked in Israeli teritorial waters we would'nt be having this talk now would we ?
You said it was not piracy or an act of war ( ok I added that later so sue me ! ) because FD says so. I posted the UN Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone and read it too. There is no mention of the Contiguos Zone being extended in any circumstances and you have yet failed to provide anything that backs that up.
It differs from NATO then....go read that one up too
Many scandals for Israel in one year to handle, piracy in the inte'l waters, and intruding in many countries affairs such as assasinating that Mabhooh guy in Dubai. As much as Israel tried to hide any traces by manipulating other country's passports to accomplish their crime, yet they got their dirty laundry exposed to the whole world with accurate records of security videos.
That bastard state is causing toomuch fuss in the world and it SURELY got no sense of respect to the internatinal law. The moment I try to convince myself to give that state some credit, but it really deserves none. As a said, a bastard state defending its crimes and sponsored by the creator of terrorism, Uncle Sam and his American eagles
Also intresting is the UN convention of high seas aticle 22 on warships boarding ships on highseas. Only justified if the ship is suspected of piracy, slave trade or flying under false flag and if none of these are true the ship has to be compensated
Starting to look more like a Act of War than piracy !
And G ...Do get your prescription for your ADD pills refilled ASAP. " TERRITORIAL WATERS " are diffrent than international waters or High seas. Like I said DO try to keep up. Didn't I say that IF the Flotilla had breached and the raid happened in Israeli " territorial " waters we wouldn't be having this talk.
@ FD : NO the question IS wheter if it was in International waters or not and what is Neutral water anyways ? Please again provide credible source for defintion and what you said earlier
symmetric wrote:Many scandals for Israel in one year to handle, piracy in the inte'l waters, and intruding in many countries affairs such as assasinating that Mabhooh guy in Dubai. As much as Israel tried to hide any traces by manipulating other country's passports to accomplish their crime, yet they got their dirty laundry exposed to the whole world with accurate records of security videos.
That bastard state is causing toomuch fuss in the world and it SURELY got no sense of respect to the internatinal law. The moment I try to convince myself to give that state some credit, but it really deserves none. As a said, a bastard state defending its crimes and sponsored by the creator of terrorism, Uncle Sam and his American eagles
symmetric wrote:How about say something meaningful or just shut up
Yep, violence and wanting to shut people up...must be a cultural thing or something...
If you don't like the culture of common sense and justice, then get out of our club. Seriously, what's wrong with you FD? U don't like it here, so why bother coming here? Sortie sil vous plait
Misery Called Life wrote: But that damned Zionists, they just don't stick to the script do they?
The political game around this is going to be on the edge, or maybe beyond. Turkey has certainly something to loose from breaking relation with Israel. What to do with all those Israeli UAV´s for bombing the Kurds? Despite Erdogans anti-Israel rhetoric, Turkey remained its ties because of the Turkish military. This will probably end and will upset some high ranking officers... Israel realized that no matter what it does, it will be critized. Now, we will see Israel taking off the gloves. The world doesn't need another crisis, and Israel can create a serious one. Israel wil threaten to escalate, EU will back down. EU leaders were always sissies. Next step: Israel will not allow future flotilla's to reach Gaza and will deploy troops at some border. A lot of leaders will get very nervous. Time to practice the poker face.
-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:11 am --
desertdudeshj wrote:@ FD : NO the question IS wheter if it was in International waters or not and what is Neutral water anyways ? Please again provide credible source for defintion and what you said earlier
I will repost:
The question is not whether flotilla was in international waters, rather whether is was in neutral waters:
I´ll quote from San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994:
14. Neutral waters consist of the internal waters, territorial sea, and, where applicable, the archipelagic waters, of neutral States. Neutral airspace consists of the airspace over neutral waters and the land territory of neutral States.
No, flotilla was not in neutral waters.
Checking further:
118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture.
119. As an alternative to visit and search, a neutral merchant vessel may, with its consent, be diverted from its declared destination.
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture
RobbyG wrote:DD, page 6/10: Convention on the Territorial Sea and the Contiguous Zone 1958 PART I. TERRITORIAL SEA SECTION III. RIGHT OF INNOCENT PASSAGE Subsection A. Rules applicable to all ships Article 16.
Article 16 1.The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent. 2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters, the coastal State shall also have the right to take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to those waters is subject.
San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 PART I : GENERAL PROVISIONS SECTION II : ARMED CONFLICTS AND THE LAW OF SELF-DEFENCE
3. The exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized in Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations is subject to the conditions and limitations laid down in the Charter, and arising from general international law, including in particular the principles of necessity and proportionality.
4. The principles of necessity and proportionality apply equally to armed conflict at sea and require that the conduct of hostilities by a State should not exceed the degree and kind of force, not otherwise prohibited by the law of armed conflict, required to repel an armed attack against it and to restore its security.
5. How far a State is justified in its military actions against the enemy will depend upon the intensity and scale of the armed attack for which the enemy is responsible and the gravity of the threat posed.
Lets hope the Turkish military is still backing the secular states of the world. As soon as Erdogan gives the get go, the army will take him into custody and let the navy sail back home. Secularity prevails...
Flying Dutchman. Give other people a chance to put their points across. You are becoming a repetitive and annoying.
Jewish people are still prosecuting the German people for something that had happened centuries ago. So why Palestine can’t has the same right. Well, to your disappointment, Palestine will never stop pursuing its inalienable right to resist injustice until this Zionist apartheid Israeli government has been defeated and removed. It took the people of South Africa a long time before they defeated and removed the apartheid regime. The power of the people not the power of guns that has changed many major events throughout human history.
Middle Eastern people don’t hate the Jews just because they are Jew – there are so many Arabs who are Jews and living in Iran, Morocco etc. Israel is hated by its neighbours because of its illegal occupation of Palestinian lands. It hated by its neighbours because it has ruined the lives of Palestinians. It hated by its neighbours because it has forced so innocent Palestinians out of their ancestors' homes and lands, and flagrantly refused them the right of return. It hated by its neighbours because of its daily torture, killing and humiliation of the children and women of Palestine. It hated by its neighbours because it gives it damn about the international law and international treaty. We could go on and on about why Israel has been hated by its neighbours.
I hope you and like-minded people won’t be here on our planet for too long. Because evil individuals like yourself only prefer justice done to them but not to other human beings, thus you and like-minded existence are counterproductive to the advancement of a fair and just humanity.
Luckily, our planet are full of decent and justice-loving humans whom are not afraid to uphold the truth and stand up for justice and the well being of their fellow humans.
Flying Dutchman wrote: under the pretence of peace and get there behinds kicked, they start crying for their mammy!
Aren't you being a bit harsh on the keystone 'commandos'?
I hear that the Somali Shabab are putting together a training course - which will include:
1. How to tell whether it is night or day 2. How to tell difference between a wood stick and a 'knife' or 'steel pipe' 3. How NOT to give the bearded ones your gun and rifle 4. How to manage the PR campaign
RobbyG wrote:Lets hope the Turkish military is still backing the secular states of the world. As soon as Erdogan gives the get go, the army will take him into custody and let the navy sail back home. Secularity prevails...
I hope (with pokerface)
What makes you think secularity will be there forever? Everything changes in this world, be it to good or bad, people will never agree with each other
The San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea was adopted in June 1994 after a series of round tables of naval and legal experts convened.
As such, it is not legally binding.
San Remo Memorandum's Extent
Declaration's paragraph 60 reads as follows: [3]
The following activities may render merchant vessels military objectives:
(a) engaging in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy, e.g., laying mines, minesweeping, cutting undersea cables and pipelines, engaging in visit and search of neutral merchant vessels or attacking other merchant vessels; (b) acting as an auxiliary to an enemy's armed forces, e.g., carrying troops or replenishing warships; (c) being incorporated into or assisting the enemy's intelligence gathering system, e.g., engaging in reconnaissance, early warning, surveillance, or command, control and communications missions; (d) sailing under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; (e) refusing an order to stop or actively resisting visit, search or capture; (f) being armed to an extent that they could inflict damage to a warship; this excludes light individual weapons for the defence of personnel, e.g., against pirates, and purely deflective systems such as chaff; or (g) otherwise making an effective contribution to military action, e.g., carrying military materials.
There is also a paragraph relating to the possible attack of neutral vessels. Paragraph 47 lists "vessels that are specifically exempt from capture, on the basis of either treaty law or customary law":[3]
The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:
(a) hospital ships; (b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports; (c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including: (i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war; (ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations; * (d) vessels engaged in transporting cultural property under special protection; * (e) passenger vessels when engaged only in carrying civilian passengers; * (f) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientific or philanthropic missions; vessels collecting scientific data of likely military applications are not protected; * (g) small coastal fishing vessels and small boats engaged in local coastal trade, but they are subject to the regulations of a belligerent naval commander operating in the area and to inspection; * (h) vessels designated or adapted exclusively for responding to pollution incidents in the marine environment; * (i) vessels which have surrendered; * (j) life rafts and lifeboats.
So like the Israeli Govt you are also grasping at straws to justify the raid, secondly the San Remo Manual is NOT a legal binding document just a guideline and even if it was it states "vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations" as vessels exempt from attack
So your argument is just like the Israelis is baseless.
I'll agree from what we know until now, evidence only provided by the Israelis at the moment that the people on board the Mavi Marmara could have more like Peace Activists rather than hooligans.
But how do you justify the use of force and violence against peacefull resistance by using flash bangs, tasers and physical violence ?
Here is an interview from Awiadah Arraf aboard the challeger 1 American Ship about her eyewitness account
See you gotta move beyond your habit on grasping on to one thing ( Here its, Israel acted propely, did you watch the video, Israel acted properly, did you see the video, Israel acted properly, did you see the video )and move beyond that and look at the bigger picture. 
