Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

It is worth re-posting this article written by Hamas two years ago, some people still seem to be labouring under the impression that Hamas denies the Holocaust or is waging a religious war against Israel.

Their words are pretty clear:

Hamas condemns the Holocaust

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

Bassem Naeem
guardian.co.uk, Monday 12 May 2008 14.30 BST


As the Palestinian people prepare to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the Nakba ("catastrophe") - the dispossession and expulsion of most of our people from our land - those remaining in Palestine face escalating aggression, killings, imprisonment, ethnic cleansing and siege. But instead of support and solidarity from the western media, we face frequent attempts to defend the indefensible or turn fire on the Palestinians themselves.

One recent approach, which seems to be part of the wider attempt to isolate the elected Palestinian leadership, is to portray Hamas and the population of the Gaza strip as motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than a hostility to Zionist occupation and domination of our land. A recent front page article in the International Herald Tribune followed this line, as did an article for Cif about an item broadcast on the al-Aqsa satellite TV channnel about the Nazi Holocaust.

In fact, the al-Aqsa Channel is an independent media institution that often does not express the views of the Palestinian government headed by Ismail Haniyeh or of the Hamas movement. The channel regularly gives Palestinians of different convictions the chance to express views that are not shared by the Palestinian government or the Hamas movement. In the case of the opinion expressed on al-Aqsa TV by Amin Dabbur, it is his alone and he is solely responsible for it.

It is rather surprising to us that so little attention, if any, is given by the western media to what is regularly broadcast or written in the Israeli media by politicians and writers demanding the total uprooting or "transfer" of the Palestinian people from their land.

The Israeli media and pro-Israel western press are full of views that deny or seek to excuse well-established facts of history including the Nakba of 1948 and the massacres perpetrated then by the Haganah, the Irgun and LEHI with the objective of forcing a mass dispossession of the Palestinians.

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

And at the same time as we unreservedly condemn the crimes perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews of Europe, we categorically reject the exploitation of the Holocaust by the Zionists to justify their crimes and harness international acceptance of the campaign of ethnic cleansing and subjection they have been waging against us - to the point where in February the Israeli deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai threatened the people of Gaza with a "holocaust".

Within 24 hours, 61 Palestinians - more than half of them civilians and a quarter children - were killed in a series of air raids. Meanwhile, a horrible crime against humanity continues to be perpetrated against the people of Gaza: the two-year-old siege imposed after Hamas won the legislative elections in January 2006, which is causing great suffering. Due to severe shortages of medicines and food, scores of Palestinians have lost their lives.

It cannot be right that Europeans in general and the British in particular maintain a virtual silence toward what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinians, let alone supporting or justifying their oppressive policies, under the pretext of showing sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust.

The Palestinian people aspire to freedom, independence and peaceful coexistence with all their neighbours. There are, today, more than six million Palestinian refugees. No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded. Little concern seems to be caused by all of this or by the erection of an apartheid wall that swallows more than 20% of the West Bank land or the heavily armed colonies that devour Palestinian land in a blatant violation of international law.

The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today's Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas's 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.

Our right to resistance against occupation is recognised by all conventions and religious traditions. The Jews are for us the people of a sacred book who suffered persecution in European lands. Whenever they sought refuge, Muslim and Arab lands provided them with safe havens. It was in our midst that they enjoyed peace and prosperity; many of them held leading positions in Muslim countries.

After almost a century of Zionist colonial and racist oppression, some Palestinians find it hard to imagine that some of their oppressors are the sons and daughters of those who were themselves oppressed and massacred.

Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust but find themselves punished for someone else's crime. But we are well aware and warmly welcome the outspoken support for Palestinian rights by Israeli and Jewish human rights activists in Palestine and around the world.

We hope that journalists in the west will begin to adopt a more objective approach when covering events in Palestine. The Palestinian people are being killed by Israel's machine of destruction on a daily basis. Nevertheless, we still see a clear bias in favour of Israel in the western media.

The Europeans bear a direct responsibility for what is befalling the Palestinians today. Britain was the mandate authority that handed over Palestine to Israeli occupation. Nazi Germany perpetrated the most heinous crimes against Jews, forcing the survivors to migrate to Palestine in pursuit of safety. We, therefore, expect the Europeans to atone for their historic crimes by restoring some balance to the inhuman and one-sided international response to the tragedy of our people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

FD - what do you think of this article, does this change your belief that Hamas is anti-Semitic?

Doesn't it call into question the quotes you gave which apparently showed Hamas was anti-Semitic denied the Holocaust? It appears that your quotes were all snippets - here Hamas is categoric about their view of Jews and about the Holocaust.

Cheers,
shafique

I always wondered what a PR spokesman would say to a Western audience to get more useful idiots into supporting the Hamas terror group.

What did anyone think the guy would say, exactly? LoL.

You would be better off quoting Hamas officials who speak in the Muslim world or to the people of Gazastan to see what they (Hamas) want and believe in.

I mean, that is if you wanted to have an ounce of credibility.

But the spokesman brings up one or two interesting points. The first is his wild claim that the television station, al-Aqsa satellite channel, is independent from Hamas oversight and freely express viewpoints catering to different Palestinian factions.

Sorry, people who keep up with Hamas' antics in Gaza know better than to believe these lies.

The second is the author's speaking for Hamas. It's similar to how Muslim spokesmen in the West routinely lie to gullible Westerners about the beliefs and practices of the world's Muslim population. Islam and Muslims are not a monolithic group of people, except that they all reject terrorism, jihad warfare and other reactionary and violent beliefs, they say.

LoL.

Hamas' stance on various issues is well known to people who keep themselves informed on the subject. Quoting a propaganda piece and expecting everyone to buy what the author is selling tells me that you believe the non-Muslims on this forum are dumb or that, perhaps, you are the one who is dumb.

Bravo, at least you decided to give us your view that you prefer to believe the Fox News/Memri translations rather than Hamas' own words.

However, given your past form, I have to ask - did you read the article this time - in full?

Kudos for acknowledging this thread - 'I had a dream FD' decided he didn't need to address this clear, categoric statement - as he already knew the 'truth' about Hamas.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Kudos for acknowledging this thread - 'I had a dream FD' decided he didn't need to address this clear, categoric statement - as he already knew the 'truth' about Hamas.

Speak for yourself. I stated my opinion about the anti-semitic nature of Hamas numerous times, so I refer to all the other threads we discussed this and their anti-semitic convenant.
What is your frigging obession with me anyways? You are constantly seeking my approval or pushing me to post in your threads. You act like a stalker. Following me from forum to forum. Get a life! Seriously. Its uncanny and I have to admit a bit scary.

Calm down.

You're the one that raised Hamas' views about the Holocaust and presented as 'fact' that they deny the Holocaust. As with my supposed Holocaust denials, it appears facts don't feature too highly in your arguments.

I can't see how I'm stalking you - you're the one who accused me of 'intense hatred' etc and appear to have these weird visions of me doing calculations which show Aushwitz didn't happen!

What is notable, is that you haven't actually commented on what Hamas says above in relation to your pronouncement that they deny the Holocaust.

How often does your mud-throwing technique actually work?

(PS - you do realise that when we joined the forum is detailed under our avatars, don't you?)

Cheers,
Shafique

Good point.

I could demolish a few other of the author's lies, such as his claim that more than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained by the Israelis since 1967:

No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded.

The claim of the amount of Palestinians detained is addressed here.

But I thought the line that the al-Aqsa television station not operating under the thumb of Hamas to be pretty laughable.

You could try, but I guess you'd just be regurgitating what Fox and Memri put out.

However, the article is by Hamas and this thread is about Hamas' view of the Holocaust and is categoric:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

How are you going to show this is a lie?

(And Eh - your link 'does not exist' - you may want to re-post it)

Cheers,
Shafique

Erhm, perhaps quote Hamas officials speaking to non-Westerners?

LoL.

Seriously, who did you expect to convince by quoting from an article by a single individual addressed to a Western audience?

erm, I expect facts rather than Memri translations taken out of context and 'dreams'.

I seem to have higher standards than you.

Cheers,
Shafique

GAZA, Aug 30 (Reuters) - Hamas condemned the United Nations on Sunday, saying it planned to teach Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip about the Holocaust -- but the U.N. agency which runs schools in the enclave would not confirm any change.

Branding the Nazi genocide of the Jews "a lie invented by the Zionists", the Islamist movement which runs the Gaza Strip wrote in an open letter to a senior U.N. official that he should withdraw plans for a new history book in U.N. schools.

A spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which educates some 200,000 refugee children in Gaza, said the Holocaust was not on its current curriculum. He would not comment on Hamas's statement that it was about to change.

Palestinians resent the way world powers reacted to the Holocaust by supporting the establishment of Israel in 1948, a move that left half the Arab population of then British-ruled Palestine as refugees in Gaza, the West Bank and abroad.

Hamas said it believed UNRWA was about to start using a text for 13-year-olds that included a chapter on the Holocaust.

In an open letter to local UNRWA chief John Ging, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees said: "We refuse to let our children study a lie invented by the Zionists."

UNRWA spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said: "There is no mention of the Holocaust in the current syllabus." Asked if UNRWA planned to change that, he declined to comment.

In the Israeli-occupied West Bank, run by the Western-backed Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas, teachers said there was no official guidance on teaching about the Holocaust.

Israelis are angered by denial of the Holocaust among some in the Middle East, notably lately by leaders in Iran, who provide support for Hamas. Abbas, who has engaged in negotiation with Israel, has had to distance himself from his own 1980s doctoral thesis, which cast doubt on the scale of the Holocaust.

Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, said he did not want to discuss the history of the Holocaust but said:

"Regardless of the controversy, we oppose forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land." (Editing by Erika Solomon and Alastair Macdonald)

http://alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LU321904.htm

LoL.

-- Tue May 18, 2010 9:23 am --

This guy speaks for all of Hamas, right?

Palestinian Holocaust Denial
By Reuven Paz
April 21, 2000

Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website. Although Hamas often uses anti-Jewish phrases, this was the first time the organization has officially denied the Holocaust.

.....

The Islamic establishment of the PA, headed by Shaykh 'Ikrimah Sabri, has taken a strong anti-Jewish tone, but it has so far not been accompanied by a denial of the Holocaust. Instead, the most common claims have been that Israel has used the same methods against the Palestinians as those used by the Nazi Germans against the Jews. Hamas, on the other hand, went much further in its 1988 charter, making a comparison between Jews and the Nazis. Many of Hamas's pamphlets have included severe anti-Semitic expressions not just against Israelis or Zionists, but against the Jews in general, with such phrases such as "sons of pigs and monkeys" being the most common. The official organ of the movement, the monthly London-based Filastin al-Muslimah, frequently presents anti-Jewish arguments, usually on a religious basis.

....

An excerpt of this press release follows. It is taken from the official website of Hamas (http://www.palestine-info.org) and is translated from the original Arabic:

Following the special international conference in Stockholm concerning the alleged Jewish Holocaust during World War II, a senior leading member of The Islamic Resistance Movement-- Hamas--states the following:

This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. . . . The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations.

Not only does this attempt to focus on an alleged story ignore the suffering of our people and disregard the massacres committed by the Zionists against them, such as Dir Yasin, Kafr Qasem, Tanturah, Jerusalem, Hebron and Sabra and Shatila--not to mention the massacres committed by the enemy against the people of our nation, such as in Bahr al-Baqr and Qana, the killing of thousands of Egyptian captives, and so on--but the story itself has no proof. . . . The Zionist entity is using psychological and ideological terrorism through the Stockholm conference and the alleged Nazi Holocaust. . . .

We call the free scholars of the world and its vital forces to expose the crimes of global Zionism against our people, our nation, and against all human civilization, and to refute them and not to fear the hostility of the Jews and their ideological terrorism or their influence through which they shut mouths and prevent objective, unbiased scholars from revealing the Zionist claims as lies. By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/temp ... p?CID=1946

Oh, and I see that my link does not work.

Here are two articles that destroy the lie that your author parroted:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... b-lie.html

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... lying.html

pwned.

The 2000 quote is the most damning as it clearly shows a denial of the Holocaust:

This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. . . . The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations.

I went to the Washington institute website and then followed the link to Hamas' website.

The first article dealing with the Holocaust was from February this year and included this extract:

..
The holocaust was nefarious not because many of the victims were Jewish. (millions of non-Jews were killed during the WWII). It was diabolical because innocent human beings were killed unjustly. The horrendous killings wouldn’t have been less evil had the victims been non-Jewish and their number a few million less.

The world must make every conceivable effort to prevent the recurrence of genocides and massacres and destructive wars. And one of the key ways to do that is to prevent Israel from using the holocaust to bully the world to keep silent in the face of Israel’s genocidal crimes against the Palestinians.

Yes, the holocaust was evil, but it must never be used as an excuse for tormenting and savaging the Palestinian people and trying to destroy their national existence which they have earned in spite of history.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7MBtqv7ZqoQPxyyS4pH0JF%2b1Ho5EOacB8UJJUqWSYtnqODyurw2sDK2Nd4VLkG%2ftSK2ZBOennos63TcyLNyx45vztXi6eqnAohH2n8P09Ikk%3d

To me this is very far from Holocaust denial - but rather a reasoned argument about how the Holocaust shouldn't be misused.

I'm therefore left wondering about the accuracy of the translations eh provided above. Anyway, I have no issue with stating that should Hamas deny the Holocaust, they would be condemned by myself - but if they are saying what is in the 2008 article and in the quote above from Feb this year - I can't disagree with their assessments.

What is hype, what is reality?

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, so we both agree that the author is wrong for saying that Hamas accepts the historical reality of the holocaust when we have official statements from Hamas in fact denying that the holocaust happened.

I mean, this thread is titled "Hamas' view of the Holocaust". Apparently you believe that all Hamas members hold exactly the same views.

Regardless of pointing out that your 'evidence' to support your belief are two articles written to Western audiences, it's clear that your claim is easily refuted.

Hamas is, at best, clearly divided on the issue. There is no official party line whether or not the holocaust happened (well, actually there is, they deny it happened).

As for my other article, that too showed that when Hamas is not talking to Westerners, they deny or minimize the historical reality of the holocaust:

Branding the Nazi genocide of the Jews "a lie invented by the Zionists", the Islamist movement which runs the Gaza Strip wrote in an open letter to a senior U.N. official that he should withdraw plans for a new history book in U.N. schools.

and

In an open letter to local UNRWA chief John Ging, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees said: "We refuse to let our children study a lie invented by the Zionists."

and

Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, said he did not want to discuss the history of the Holocaust but said:

"Regardless of the controversy, we oppose forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land." (Editing by Erika Solomon and Alastair Macdonald)

It's clear that not all of Hamas is onboard with what you want others to believe what Hamas accepts.

In reality, the facts show that the only time the existence of the holocaust is accepted by 'Hamas' (note the use of quotation marks) is when someone affiliated with Hamas writes to an English speaking audience and claims to speak for the group.

But hey, anyone with a bit of common sense could have already seen through this silly article and your absurd conclusion on Hamas.

Please don't insult the intelligence of the other forum members by posting such dumb articles. This is just common sense here.

event horizon wrote:Hey, so we both agree that the author is wrong for saying that Hamas accepts the historical reality of the holocaust when we have official statements from Hamas in fact denying that the holocaust happened.

You missed the fact that the 'author' is a Hamas spokesman. The article, was written by Hamas - not a journalist. He was (is?) the Minister of Health and Information.

event horizon wrote:I mean, this thread is titled "Hamas' view of the Holocaust". Apparently you believe that all Hamas members hold exactly the same views.

err-yes, see previous comment.

event horizon wrote:Hamas is, at best, clearly divided on the issue. There is no official party line whether or not the holocaust happened (well, actually there is, they deny it happened).

As for my other article, that too showed that when Hamas is not talking to Westerners, they deny or minimize the historical reality of the holocaust:

I agree that there are conflicting stories out there. The one I quoted is from Hamas directly. And the article I quoted in my last post is on the website which your post said was Hamas' official website.

event horizon wrote:Please don't insult the intelligence of the other forum members by posting such dumb articles. This is just common sense here.

What was dumb about the article? - it was about the Holocaust and it was from Hamas' website.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:(PS - you do realise that when we joined the forum is detailed under our avatars, don't you?)

Funny you take this forum as an example. After an absence of more than a year. Your first post in 2009 was (my response in also included):

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:Hello folks - I thought I'd look in to see what's happening. I see that Flying Dutchman is still waving the flag for the Israeli regime and repeating the party lines!

Your cross-forum obsession for me is very creepy.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Still flag waiving and throwing out slurs!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Still flag waiving and throwing out slurs!

Cheers,
Shafique

Whatever.

FWIW I agree with Guardian article, which is something event horizon also tries to explain:

The amount of anti-Semitic literature, journalism and television in Arab countries is voluminous. The more sophisticated Arab governments, however, who tolerate this stuff, understand the need to turn a less contorted face to the West, with its anti-racist liberal campaigners. They play it down, or ignore it. It isn't easy, though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/22/religion.guardiancolumnists

This obvioulsy also implies for Hamas.

Interesting that you donot mention Ahmadinezjad with his holocaust denial.
Another claim of Hamas is that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is correct and that it describes the historic truth. Notice that Hitler also used this book for justifying prosecution against jews. Hamas is doing the same. Also quite some posters on this forum agree with the historical truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I've also read the Guardian post - and I'm not surprised you agree with it and 'obviously' think it applies to Hamas.

The quote above stands in contrast with the first article by Hamas' minister and also the article on their website from February this year.

As for the Prez of Iran - it's a bit hard for me to work him into a thread about Hamas' view of the Holocaust - but hey, what the heck?

First, just because I'm a Moooslim - doesn't mean I agree with everythign all other Moooslims say/believe. In fact, as a Sunni, I have fundamental theological disagreements with both Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon - but on political issues - I've only objected to slurs against them which aren't actually based in fact.

For example, the 'wipe Israel of the map' quote has a remarkable longevity. People still think Ahmedinejad said this. The quote was actually a quotation of Khomeni, and in the original Persian doesn't contain 'map' or 'Israel' - and goes something like 'the imam (i.e. Khomeni) said one day the regime occupying Jerusalem will be wiped off the pages of history'.

As for his stance on the Holocaust - that's for him to answer. I take him at his word that he's not anti-Semitic - only anti-Zionist - and I agree with him that anti-Zionists are unfairly labelled anti-Semitic. He frequently makes the point that there are Jews in the Iranian parliament and that despite the incentives/attractions of emigrating to Israel, a sizeable population of Iranian Jews still remain in the country.


As for Protocols - I view it with the same scepticism as the other conspiracy theories. What I do reject is the tarring of people who oppose Israel's crimes with the same brush as conspiracy theorists. Hence why I like to make list of facts, not theories.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:As for his stance on the Holocaust - that's for him to answer. I take him at his word that he's not anti-Semitic

He is a known holocaust denier. I know, you donot consider holocaust denial as anti-semitic, I do.

shafique wrote:As for Protocols - I view it with the same scepticism

LOL @ scepticism. It is a forgery, used by anti-semites, like Hamas.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:As for his stance on the Holocaust - that's for him to answer. I take him at his word that he's not anti-Semitic

He is a known holocaust denier. I know, you donot consider holocaust denial as anti-semitic, I do.

Yes, I know you've redefined anti-semitic to include those who only oppose Zionism and Israel's crimes. That's your definition - I said I agreed with his clear statements (and those of Rabbis) who say he isn't anti-semitic.

In fact, come to think of it - by your new definition -these guys would be anti-Semites as well, wouldn't they?]
http://www.nkusa.org/
(Jews against Zionism)

These guys demonstrated in support of Ahmadinejad in NYC in Sept 09 - scroll down on the main web page.

Cheers,
Shafique

Here's a pic of the UK chapter of the organisation:



Do you consider these guys anti-semites FD?

FD, You might be surprised to know how many millions of people both in the west and the east question the reality behind holocaust. You don't have to be a zionist jew hater to shuffle history as to understand what exactly was happening at the time when world order and politics were rewritten by jewish led W.Euro/American colonialism. Just as today's excuses used for shaping public mind to justify wars and invasions, the same was needed during the world wars to mix and confuse peoples minds to justify actions and establishments to follow afterwards. And ofcourse while this was all taking place, I believe all sides involved in wars were making concessions, turning blind eye to agreed conspiracies and making the most of what's apperant to public eye to suit the political and economic interest of the nations or rulers.
And I believe the further nasty the zionists/Israel will get, the more information will be leaked out from the hidden archives of the western nations..

Also quite some posters on this forum agree with the historical truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

But also quite some posters reached to the files of wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

God you would love this websites FD..
http://www.projetaladin.org/en/holocaus ... claim.html
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=55

there are many more sites to annoy you..you know..

shafique wrote:Yes, I know you've redefined anti-semitic to include those who only oppose Zionism and Israel's crimes.

LOL. So holocaust denail now is equal to opposing Zionism.

shafique wrote:These guys demonstrated in support of Ahmadinejad in NYC in Sept 09 - scroll down on the main web page.

Jewish capo's also worked in nazi death camps (yes, they did exist!). Neturei Karta are religious nutters who probably hate, based on their interpretation of their religion, Israel more than other religious nutters. They are not ashamed of anything, as long as they side with people who hate Israel too. No matter whether they are anti-semitic or deny the holocaust. No surprise you feel comfortable enough using them in your argument.

-- Tue May 18, 2010 2:52 pm --

Berrin wrote:FD, You might be surprised to know how many millions of people both in the west and the east question the reality behind holocaust. You don't have to be a zionist jew hater to shuffle history as to understand what exactly was happening at the time when world order and politics were rewritten by jewish led W.Euro/American colonialism. Just as today's excuses used for shaping public mind to justify wars and invasions, the same was needed during the world wars to mix and confuse peoples minds to justify actions and establishments to follow afterwards. And ofcourse while this was all taking place, I believe all sides involved in wars were making concessions, turning blind eye to agreed conspiracies and making the most of what's apperant to public eye to suit the political and economic interest of the nations or rulers.
And I believe the further nasty the zionists/Israel will get, the more information will be leaked out from the hidden archives of the western nations..

Also quite some posters on this forum agree with the historical truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

But also quite some posters reached to the files of wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

God you would love this websites FD..
http://www.projetaladin.org/en/holocaus ... claim.html
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=55

there are many more sites to annoy you..you know..

Fascinating and truely educational. Which madrassa did you go to?

They are indeed religious Jews and have a strict interpretation of the Bible. They expect the Messiah to come and set up Israel (so pretty much agree with the US Christians who similarly think the Messiah will come and fight in Israel etc).

However, my question was quite simple - do you consider these Orthodox Jews to be anti-Semites?

Just because they are ultra-religious, does that mean that they automatically wrong to point out that being against Zionism is not the same as being against Jews?

Are they anti-Semites or not?


(I've used them in my argument, to the extent that I agree with them and Ahmadinejad that being against Zionism is distinct from being against Judaism)

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, I consider NK anti-semitic. Notice they are not considered part of the jewish community anymore, mainly because of holocaust denial.

I perfectly understand they are buddies of yours!

I also notice you donot consider the Elders of Zion anti-semitic. You already showed you donot consider a nazi salute and holocaust denial anti-semitic. Whats next???

Cool, thanks for clarifying your beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique

Fascinating and truely educational. Which madrassa did you go to?

The one your elders financed.

I perfectly understand they are buddies of yours!
I also notice you donot consider the Elders of Zion anti-semitic. You already showed you donot consider a nazi salute and holocaust denial anti-semitic. Whats next???

You've got to be kidding..
You don't know what those elders of Zion had done to my beloved Hitler...

Rothschild-Illuminati planned to use Communism to establish a world dictatorship of the super rich.
This is perhaps the most explosive political document in modern history. It reveals why the Illuminati created Hitler and then sought to destroy him, and why Stalin made a pact with Hitler in 1939.

http://www.savethemales.ca/000275.html

.

shafique wrote:

event horizon wrote:I mean, this thread is titled "Hamas' view of the Holocaust". Apparently you believe that all Hamas members hold exactly the same views.

err-yes, see previous comment.

Perhaps you don't understand the implications when you try and claim that a collective group of people believe in something.

When you say 10 people believe the sky is blue, that means every single person in that group believes the sky is blue. Not two, not three, not nine. But ten.

Absent of an official party line, to point out that 'Hamas' as a collective holds the belief that the holocaust happened is easy to refute. All I would need to do is quote one member from Hamas denying a belief in the holocaust to show that 'Hamas' does not believe in the holocaust.

That's pretty much common sense here.

But it gets worse. I"m not simply quoting some random Hamas member. I've quoted official Hamas spokesmen in the Gaza strip and cited the publication of the denial of the holocaust on their official (Arabic) website.

Unless you expect me to believe that the people who published the denial in 2000 have changed their minds since they published the denial or that the high ranking Hamas members who emphatically denied the holocaust as recently as last year also had a conversion, it's pretty clear that Hamas, as a collective, is not in agreement with what you are claiming they believe.

Oh, yeah. That's in addition to the TV show on al-Aqsa television that also denied the holocaust and that prompted Bassem Naeem to write a propaganda piece in an attempt to convince naive Westerners.

event horizon wrote:

shafique wrote:

event horizon wrote:I mean, this thread is titled "Hamas' view of the Holocaust". Apparently you believe that all Hamas members hold exactly the same views.

err-yes, see previous comment.

Perhaps you don't understand the implications when you try and claim that a collective group of people believe in something.

Ok. I'm listening.

event horizon wrote:When you say 10 people believe the sky is blue, that means every single person in that group believes the sky is blue. Not two, not three, not nine. But ten.

Yes. With you so far.

event horizon wrote:Absent of an official party line,

Sorry. Now you've lost me.

I quoted the Minister of Information stating :

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

event horizon wrote:...to point out that 'Hamas' as a collective holds the belief that the holocaust happened is easy to refute.

Well, I agree that it is easy to get quotes that contradict what Hamas says above. The point is why should we believe the quotes you believe and not believe what the Minister states categorically?

event horizon wrote: All I would need to do is quote one member from Hamas denying a belief in the holocaust to show that 'Hamas' does not believe in the holocaust.

Ok. Let me state this again slowly.

Bassem Naeem wrote the piece entitled, "Hamas condemns the Holocaust" and quoted in full.

Mr Naeem is the Minister of Information for Hamas in Gaza.

Does that count as ONE member of Hamas?

event horizon wrote:That's pretty much common sense here.

I agree.

event horizon wrote:But it gets worse. I"m not simply quoting some random Hamas member.

Minister of Information - ok, perhaps you wanted me to get a quote from the Hamas tea-boy instead?

event horizon wrote:I've quoted official Hamas spokesmen in the Gaza strip and cited the publication of the denial of the holocaust on their official (Arabic) website.

Yes, and I couldn't verify that the translation you gave was accurate - I did however link to and quote an article from their website of this year which clearly states that the Holocaust took place. But, as I stated, Mr Naeem's statement above is categoric.

event horizon wrote:..., it's pretty clear that Hamas, as a collective, is not in agreement with what you are claiming they believe.

Not my claim - it is a quote from Hamas, stating categorically what Hamas believes.

Either Mr Naeem is telling a bare faced lie, or the quotes you have are misrepresenting Hamas' stance on the Holocaust.

event horizon wrote:Oh, yeah. That's in addition to the TV show on al-Aqsa television that also denied the holocaust and that prompted Bassem Naeem to write a propaganda piece in an attempt to convince naive Westerners.

You say tomato..

But humour me - did the TV show say that Holocaust never happened - not an abhorrent crime etc. Naeem was quite clear:
"The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality."



Over to you eh.

Cheers,
Shafique

Either Mr Naeem is telling a bare faced lie, or the quotes you have are misrepresenting Hamas' stance on the Holocaust.

It wouldn't be the only lie Mr Naeem told in that article - I refer you to his claim that more than 700,000 Palestinians have been jailed by the state of Israel since 1967, which was one amongst other lies, such as claiming that al-Aqsa television is not affiliated with Hamas.

My Reuters article from last *year* shows that not all of Hamas is in agreement with Mr Naeem.

Branding the Nazi genocide of the Jews "a lie invented by the Zionists", the Islamist movement which runs the Gaza Strip wrote in an open letter to a senior U.N. official that he should withdraw plans for a new history book in U.N. schools.

In an open letter to local UNRWA chief John Ging, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees said: "We refuse to let our children study a lie invented by the Zionists."

Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, said he did not want to discuss the history of the Holocaust but said:

"Regardless of the controversy, we oppose forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land." (Editing by Erika Solomon and Alastair Macdonald)