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The main point is that wife beating is totally acceptable in Islam.

The only twist of logic I see are the ones coming from your keyboard.

That the Koran supposedly only allows wife beating after the husband first castigates his wife, then grounds her for disobeying the husband is beside the point - and really speaks volumes that you don't see the inherent s.exism in the first two instructions to start off with.

The threat of violence is there in a marital relationship. And, I can't imagine that in a society where wife beating is considered the norm just as spanking your children a few decades ago in the United States was, you're going to have individuals who really only beat their wife after the husband first told her to do something twice - as if this 'rule' makes this passage any less backwards.

(and pray tell, what exactly happens if the husband doesn't always follow your interpretation of the Koran?)

The passage on wife beating in the Koran creates an environment where women are not only told to obey their husbands, but if they are disobedient, they will be whacked a few times until they decide to obey their husband again.

But, I guess I'm the one living in a fantasy world where all disagreements will be solved after the first or second dispute - one where the wife's opinion on a matter will ultimately buckle to the eventual realization that if she keeps it up, her husband is going to *beat* her.

Oh, yeah. Why doesn't everyone see the logic in this verse that Muslims do?

Again, thanks for your quaint interpretation.

Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?

Weird views you have eh.

You quoted one verse of the Quran, and seem to go off on a tangent.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?

It's not about his imaginations. They do it!

I have seen it and I have seen the guy referring to Quran, look up the verse, show it to all and say it is ok!!!

Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?

As I said, God's words are pretty clear - and I don't know of any Muslim man who beats their wife and uses this verse as a justification. I do know of Muslims who have hit their wives - as I know of others who have done the same - fortunately not too many of them that I know of.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women?

Yes.

Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?

It's not EH's interpretion. It is what Islam and Tafseer says... I don't consider myself as a musilm anymore, so I don't agree that these senences are from God. Mulsim women do agree with that interpretion. It's not even a complicated verse!! It is soooo simple to comprehend, If ur wife was not obedient, Threaten them, kept them away from bed and beat them!! simple!

shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.

I'll defend your right to think what you like, but I can't say I can follow your logic.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger.

Seemed pretty clear to me.

I guess you are probably using the logic that people who support capital punishment are condoning murder. But for me, wife battery is distinct from what God is describing in this verse.

For me, violence against women is an endemic problem - eg look at the horrific stats Amnesty put out:

Stop Violence Against Women Campaign

Violence against women is a human rights scandal. At least one out of every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime.

In Europe, domestic violence is the major cause of death and disability for women aged 16 to 44.
In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes; a woman is battered every 15 seconds.
Rape of women is widespread in armed conflicts such as Colombia and Darfur.
Trafficking of women has become a global phenomenon where victims are sexually exploited, forced into labor and subjected to abuse. Murders of women in Guatemala, Russia, India, and other countries often go uninvestigated and unpunished.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/violence-agai ... id=1108417

Its endemic in Muslim societies too - but I reject the premise that this one verse is used to justify wife battery - on the contrary, women are beaten despite this verse. The underlying problem in all societies is reflected in the stats above - and no one blames misinterpreted scriptures for the rapes and battering going on (one every 15 seconds in eh's homeland!).

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Wed May 12, 2010 8:33 pm --

melika969 wrote:

Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?

It's not EH's interpretion.

I asked quite specifically whether the women agreed with this interpretation of eh's?

The verse is from the Quran - so let's leave aside the fact you don't believe it to be God's words - do you interpret this one verse as saying it is ok to batter your wife?

And, seriously, did the women who were battered accept this interpretation of this one verse?


[/quote]
If ur wife was not obedient, Threaten them, kept them away from bed and beat them!! simple![/quote]

Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three? Did they keep away from the bed for a night (at least) - or did they ignore this verse and just hit their wives? If they ignored the verse, then how can you blame the verse?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.

I'll defend your right to think what you like, but I can't say I can follow your logic.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger.

Psst...Shafster, you are talking to yourself now. You are replying to and arguing with your own quotes.

And I see you cannot follow your own logic.

Must be plenty of food for a good shrink.

You might find common grounds with shrink Holdfield:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

shafique wrote:I guess you are probably using the logic that people who support capital punishment are condoning murder.

Making more a fool of yourself (if possible). No Chubby chap, I am arguing that those that are OK with murder, cannot be against the death penalty.

The verse is from the Quran - so let's leave aside the fact you don't believe it to be God's words - do you interpret this one verse as saying it is ok to batter your wife?

Yes of course! It has been said pretty clear.

And, seriously, did the women who were battered accept this interpretation of this one verse?

Yes, when they believe these are words of God, they would believe that some superior power wants it like that and they agree with it.
The verse is so clear that you can not interpret any other thing from it!

Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three?

HAHA! So u are saying if men do all three it is ok?

Threating their wife is ok? then if she was not punished,keep her away from bed, if she was too stubborn then beat her!! So nobody should blame the verse! beacuse it is not violent at all!!

melika969 wrote:

Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three?

HAHA! So u are saying if men do all three it is ok?

What I've been saying is that this is what God says in the Quran. One can only resort to corporal punishment after first verbally warning, then abstaining from the marital bed.

I'll therefore ask once again - did the men you say you saw beating their wives follow God's clear commandment in this verse or not?

It is not a complicated question.

If they did not, how can they use this verse to codone beating their wives?


To answer your question - if all the steps are followed, then yes, God allows corporal punishment.

Threating their wife is ok?

God says 'admonish', not threaten. Do you want to re-check the Quran?

then if she was not punished,

Huh? Again, I think you need to check the translation - if she does not reform, then the next step is...

keep her away from bed,

Yes.

Hence my question to you about the Muslims who beat their wives. Did they or did they not follow this Quranic instruction before they beat their wives. If they did not, then aren't they going against Islam and can't use the Quran to condone their actions?

Time to back up your earlier statement Melika.

Cheers,
Shafique

'Once there was a husband and wife who had just bought a new mule. They were walking it down the street when the mule trips over a stone. The husband says, “That's one!”
They walk some more, when the mule trips over a stone again and the husband says, “That's two!”
Then the mule trips over a stone again. The husband says, “That's three,” and shoots the donkey!
The wife gets so mad and start's cursing at the husband and saying, “That was our only donkey! You were an idiot to shoot it!”
The husband says to his wife, that's ONE!”

Melika, you just don't have the foresight as shafique does to see the beauty in this verse.

Ultimately, the verse is about women knowing their role.

I mean, how else is one to understand a passage where the onus is on the wife to obey her husband...or else?

melika969 wrote:

Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?

It's not about his imaginations. They do it!

I have seen it and I have seen the guy referring to Quran, look up the verse, show it to all and say it is ok!!!

So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.

You say you have +seen+ 'Muslim men' who 'go about beating their wives because' of this Quranic verse.

Let me break down my questions to some specifics:
1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??
2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?
3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?
4. What was the alleged crime?
5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)


The only reason I'd like some detail is that this will be the first time I would have come across someone who applied all the punishments in this Quranic verse.

Let me know if the questions are unclear.

Cheers,
Shafique

As much as I m not interested in participating in this sick qestion and answers of yours, but these are ur answers:

1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??

Yes.

2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?

I don't know. I m not aware of their personal life and their bed!!!! (Sick minds would seek into other's bed!)

3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?

Refer to above anser pls!

4. What was the alleged crime?

Manye things could be! They (men) don't like the food, the women did not respect her in lwas as much as the guys wants... as they are many reasons I can not provide them all foe a sick mind! actually remembering this kind of stuff is not pleasant for me too!

5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)

Again another sick sick sick question from a mulsim mind of yours! it could be kick, hitting by belt, punch etc etc.


It does not matter if guy do all the three steps or not! beacuse all three of them are vilolent, ing and against humanity!! how come your God does not let women to punish their husbands like that?

So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.

Sicko!!!

I agree they are sick questions - but you said you 'saw' this happen.

The lack of details in your 'answers' speak volumes.

Either the men who you say beat their wives and used this verse as an excuse followed what God says in the verse or they did not. As you can't tell us whether they kept away from their wives or even why or how they beat their wives, I really can't see how you can claim these men were acting according to God's instructions in this one verse.

As you say, 'it could be' - let me use the same phrase: 'it could be' that these guys (who you don't know how they beat, or whether they warned, abstained from s.ex etc) were just like the wife beaters in the US (one every 15 seconds) who don't need an excuse to beat their wives.


Cheers,
Shafique

If some guys beat their wives in US, does not justify that ur God say it formally in his book, "u can beat ur wives in 3 steps"

Even if nobody, no muslim men does it ( I know they do, lots of them has sick minds!) this verse is a shame!

I totally agree Melika with your premise. There is no excuse at all for wife battery.

My argument is that God does not allow Muslims to batter their wives, and this one verse merely states that corporal punishment is allowed only after 1. admonishment and 2. abstaining from s.ex.

We can certainly have a debate over whether corporal and capital punishment are valid punishments, however, above you seem to be saying you 'saw' men who beat their wives use this verse as an excuse. (Perhaps you can clarify what exactly you 'saw' - as you weren't too clear on this point).


I repeat my point - this verse does not say that Muslim men have the right to batter their wives. I reject the premise that the corporal punishment allowed constitutes wife battery or wife beating. I repeat that I have yet to come across ONE Muslim man who has applied this verse. I was intrigued therefore to read that perhaps you had come across such a man - but alas, all mouth no trousers.

Cheers,
Shafique

states that corporal punishment is allowed only after 1. admonishment and 2. abstaining from s.ex.

This permission is anti women, sick, belongs to stone age!

(Perhaps you can clarify what exactly you 'saw' - as you weren't too clear on this point).

It was not just once I saw this kind of things, I have given u enought information before, U might need to read that again. It s not one man hitting their women, so I can not explain all those sick scenes for you. stick ,punch , kick... anything it was, does not differ. this verse is a shame!

Again, why ur God did not give such authority to women?

I reject the premise that the corporal punishment allowed constitutes wife battery or wife beating.

U need to read the verse again! In 3 steps it allows beating ur wife!

I repeat that I have yet to come across ONE Muslim man who has applied this verse.

Maybe you don't know much muslim men in msulim country with Islamic rules. Maybe in countries u have been, beating wife was LEGALLY wrong, so they can't do it!

You'll have to ask God why men and women are different.

I've just been making the point that Islam does not condone wife battery - and this one verse about corporal punishment can't be used as an excuse to beat your wife. If it could, then surely we'll have some examples where it has been used as such.

So far, it is only been used as an excuse in the imaginings of our American and Dutch friends . But you appeared to ride to their rescue with a 'sighting' of a Muslim who did beat their wife and use this verse. But alas, this now seems to be just hot air.

I repeat, though, I agree totally that wife beating is totally abhorent and condemn all instances of this - whether it is the American lady who is beaten every 15 seconds or the poor Muslim women suffering honor killings or just misogynistic domestic violence.

You'll forgive me though for pointing out that this one verse of the Quran does not give Muslim men the green light to batter their wives.

Cheers,
Shafique

The one thing I noticed that "speaks volumes" is that shafique is more interested in telling other people that he's right than in actual dialogue.

One thing I noticed that all fundamentalists/fanatics have in common is that they are always right and everyone else is wrong.

In shafique's case, I think he's more interested in writing long, drab posts than actually have any sort of discussion. It reminds me of numerous threads I've had discussions with him before where he was totally wrong on a subject but would still go on and write a chapter about it.

He seems absolutely deluded with himself.

Melika said she witnessed some Muslim men justifying wife beating - how is my asking for more details not engaging in a discussion?

The fact that you have weird interpretation of one Quranic verse is not denied by myself, I've just pointed out what God is actually saying - and making the emphatic point that the verse is not condoning wife battery.

The fact that I don't know anyone who has ever used this verse to justify wife beating is just that, a fact. Your interpretation of the verse is verifiable - we should be able to find some Muslim men who agree with you, and have acted on this verse.

I thought that Melika had some evidence of this, but alas it appears she has picked up some of your bad habits.

But hey - why let facts get in the way of a view of Islam that you probably picked up at Bible Camp?

Cheers,
Shafique

Your response proves what kind of nut job you are.

You're more interested in sounding like an intellectual than in any type of discussion.

Take some posting tips from Desert. He may be a dud, but at least his posts aren't exceedingly long, listless ramblings which contain too many of these " - ".

Seriously, every post you make has one of these in them : -

Could you actually type something out without it -------------

shafique wrote:The fact that I don't know anyone who has ever used this verse to justify wife beating is just that, a fact. Your interpretation of the verse is verifiable - we should be able to find some Muslim men who agree with you, and have acted on this verse.

The difference between a small tap and brutal assault is one of degree, not principle. What Mike Tyson might consider a pat on the back, is probably going feel to me like someone swung a sledgehammer at my shoulders.

You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.

In any society there are men who abuse their wives, and most of the time will try and find a reason to justify their abuse. Whether it be drunkeness, frustration, depression, religion, or whatever. It's still abuse. There are a number of Muslim authorities who claim that that verse in the Koran allows men to beat their wives, and even go as far to give instructions on how to beat wives so that there are no marks left. That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=13&se ... m=8&y=2005

A rebellious woman who is not moved by kind works, persuasion and admonition is a woman of no feeling and must therefore be punished by beating. Psychiatrists tell us of people, including women, for whom a cure lies in beating.

Saudi law, which I thought was supposed to be Shariah compliant, allows men to hit their wives. There is apparently a line somewhere between what is a legally acceptable beating:

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cf ... 9052739172

The District Court, however, ruled that the man was within his right to hit his wife according to the law, a ruling that was appealed by the lady at the Appeals Court.

and a legally unacceptable beating:

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&sec ... &y=2004%20

Rania’s Husband Gets Six Months’ Jail, 300 Lashes
Maha Akeel, Arab News

JEDDAH, 31 May 2004 — Rania Al-Baz’s husband has been sentenced to six months in jail and 300 lashes for beating his wife almost to death.

Who decides where that line is? Usually men.

In other countries, the matter is made much more simple. There is no line. Physical abuse of one human being by another is an offence.

Physical abuse is especially offensive because is is usually carried out by someone against a physically weaker person, such as parent against child, husband against wife (or wife against husband as sometimes happens), school bully in playground. Such abuse is a malevolent reflection of the darker side of humans.

I thought that Melika had some evidence of this, but alas it appears she has picked up some of your bad habits.

OH please! What evidence you want?? Should I tape these guys and put it on the youtube? and should the video has the all three steps?

What evidence is more clear than this right for beating wives has been given to men in Quran in a very obvious way!

Again Shafique, It doesn't matter if u havent seen muslim men doing this(As I said u might not socialized with lots of muslim men in muslim country with Islamic rules), what matters it, IT IS ALLOWED IN UR HOLLY BOOK!

You'll have to ask God why men and women are different.

Please u ask him in ur next meeting!! I dont have access to him. How come he give men permission to beat women ( yes yes u are right,they have to warn them first and keep them away from bed second) but he didn't give this permission to women?

How come he couldnt make wiser deceision and put it in his book, so centuries later his followers have to try so much to justify this verse and they wont make any sense!

Hey bonk, glad to see ur posts in most parts of forums, keep this going on!

bonk wrote:The difference between a small tap and brutal assault is one of degree, not principle. What Mike Tyson might consider a pat on the back, is probably going feel to me like someone swung a sledgehammer at my shoulders.

Agreed.

A separate discussion is whether corporal and capital punishment is ever justified - and if 'yes' then the same issue arises - corporal punishment vs brutal assault, capital punishment vs murder.

The crux of the matter is whether the 'line' as you put it below is set at a level which allows Muslim men to batter their wives.

I reject the premise that what God allows in this one verse constitutes a green light to wife beating. I understand others think that what this verse allows is 'barbaric' etc - but I also insist that evidence can and should be presented to support a view that Islam promotes/encourages/condones wife beating.

bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.

Again - agreed. That is why the discussion is in two parts.

Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?

Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?

It is a given that domestic abuse is endemic - both in Muslim countries and the West. The point of this thread is to either accept or disprove the notion that Islam condones wife beating.

If wife beating is endemic - then this implies that if everyone stopped following the Quran or Bible, then wife beating won't be eradicated. Similarly, I would argue that even if you introduced very harsh penalties for just raising your voice against your wife (let alone slapping/beating) - this would not eradicate the problem either. (We'll also gloss over the fact that 'eh' will provide copious excuses/explanations for the catalogue of misogynistic verses in the Bible, but does not accept a literal understanding of this one verse!)

bonk wrote:In any society there are men who abuse their wives, and most of the time will try and find a reason to justify their abuse. Whether it be drunkeness, frustration, depression, religion, or whatever. It's still abuse.

I've said the same many times - I'm glad you agree.

The question becomes whether what Islam allows constitutes abuse or not. I say it does not- any more than the other injuctions about lashes or executions (and also forgiveness) constitute abuse against criminals or their victims.

bonk wrote: There are a number of Muslim authorities who claim that that verse in the Koran allows men to beat their wives, and even go as far to give instructions on how to beat wives so that there are no marks left.

And this is certainly worth exploring. Does this contribute to wife beating in Muslim countries?

My 'Part 2' above suggests it does not - for the verse and these instructions (which is actually about corporal punishment) are not and cannot be used to justify spousal abuse - specifically wife battery.

My argument is that wife beating occurs despite this verse, not because of it.

An examination of the verse shows that this does not provide an excuse for a husband to be violent against his wife.

bonk wrote: That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.

It's a great hypothesis - but one I maintain can be tested, both theoretically and in practice. The theory comes from examining what the one verse says, and the practice is to look for instances where men use this verse as an excuse.

Thus far, there has been a lot of hot air. Your first link does not provide any evidence that the verse is used by wife beaters. Your second and third links are appropriate though. For the second though, no details are given about the facts that led to the verdict - or whether the man used the Quran as an excuse. (And I'm sure you won't argue that Western courts have never set free men who've hit their wives - despite what the law says)

I'll challenge you on a specific point you make though.. see below

Rania’s Husband Gets Six Months’ Jail, 300 Lashes
Maha Akeel, Arab News

JEDDAH, 31 May 2004 — Rania Al-Baz’s husband has been sentenced to six months in jail and 300 lashes for beating his wife almost to death.

Who decides where that line is? Usually men.

In other countries, the matter is made much more simple. There is no line. Physical abuse of one human being by another is an offence.

I agree.

Every time a woman beaten in the US (once every 15 seconds according to Amnesty), it is an offence. In Islam wife beating is not allowed, but only corporal punishment in specific circumstances.

Therefore we can test the hypothesis that Islam encourages wife beating or leads to women being oppressed. The comparison should be against societies where people don't believe the Quran is God's words.

Logically, the law in the US must deter some people from raising their hands against their wives. Right?

If it wasn't for the law, therefore a woman would be beaten once every 10 seconds - or even more frequently?

I take a rather more practical view - the problem of wife beating has more to do with other factors than what the law says. A man knows it is wrong to batter his wife - certainly Islam teaches you this fact, and this verse emphasises this fact.


Here's my challenge - you say that all physical abuse against another person is an offence in the West. (I would argue that the same is the case in Islam - with the emphasis on the abuse.) The challenge is to ask whether the law allows for exceptions or not - are there ANY instances where a man can be set free for hitting his wife (or in extremis killing her)? Let's discard any case where it can't be proven - and concentrate on cases where the man admits to hitting/killing the wife. Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?

I would argue that yes, there are certainly exceptions to the law that would allow a man to be found not guilty of abuse or murder. Do you agree? (I'll leave this line of argument here for now -it's just an interesting aside, and not central to my argument relating to what God says in the Quran)

Physical abuse is especially offensive because is is usually carried out by someone against a physically weaker person, such as parent against child, husband against wife (or wife against husband as sometimes happens), school bully in playground. Such abuse is a malevolent reflection of the darker side of humans.

I couldn't have said it better.

My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.


Cheers,
Shafique

Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?

It clearly allows wife battery, any mind read that verse could understand that. Again I have asked this question many times, If if if this is a bout corporal punishment, how come he didnt give this permission to women?

Does he suggest men are superiour? Women needs to be punished to learn under their supervision?

Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?

How do u know they don't? What's ur evidence?

u keep talking about every 15 sec in US. first of all even if it was every each second in US, it would not change the fact that this verse is "barbaric". And again, do u have any of this time statistics about Iran ?

melika969 wrote:

Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?

It clearly allows wife battery, any mind read that verse could understand that. Again I have asked this question many times, If if if this is a bout corporal punishment, how come he didnt give this permission to women?

It is about corporal punishment - it specifies the crime and the progressive punishments.

The wife is not given the same right because it would be both impractical and stupid. It would be as impractical and stupid for the Olympic committee to rule that women are allowed to enter heavy weight boxing matches, for example.

The wife has to resort to the other measures Islam gives her - ultimately the right to divorce or imprisonment for the husband.

melika969 wrote:Does he suggest men are superiour? Women needs to be punished to learn under their supervision?

God states that men are different from women biologically, and all differences in responsibilities etc stem from this. God also explicitly states that men and women are equal in terms of spirituality, reward etc.

melika969 wrote:

Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?

How do u know they don't? What's ur evidence?

It's a question that we can test. As a Muslim man who meets many other Muslims I can draw on personal experience.

Is it wrong to ask the question?

melika969 wrote:u keep talking about every 15 sec in US. first of all even if it was every each second in US, it would not change the fact that this verse is "barbaric". And again, do u have any of this time statistics about Iran ?

Yes - I agree that every woman who is battered is subject to a barbaric act. The point is whether God's commandment in this one verse is contributing to this world-wide problem.

Let me turn this round slightly - what proportion of the 4 women a minute who are being battered in the US do you think that Islam/Quran says is ok? (Assume that all the men doing the battering are Muslim)

My answer is zero. All the women being battered in the US are receiving a beating that God does not allow - and certainly the men aren't following this particular Quranic verse. Do you disagree?

The statistics for one woman being beaten every 15 seconds is from Amnesty's website - and the same place has global comparisons. Do I think Iranians batter their women more frequently than Americans - I'd have to say I don't believe this. This stems from the fact that the studies I've read show that alcohol consumption is a major cause of violence against women, and that I believe that violence against women is correlated to general violence in societies.

Given that the US has much higher rates of alcohol consumption and also general crime (just look at murder rates) would lead me to guess that violence against women in Iran would be a level where less than 4 women a minute are battered.

But then again, if there is evidence to the contrary - I'll happily review that and will not hesitate to update my view.


I'll remind you that I merely asked you for more details to back up your earlier statement that implied you had witnessed Muslim males using the Quranic verse to justify wife battery. I think it was legitimate to ask you for the details - and had you provided such evidence, it would have gone some way to support your argument.

Cheers,
Shafique

that I merely asked you for more details to back up your earlier statement that implied you had witnessed Muslim males using the Quranic verse to justify wife battery.

This is what you call merely, look at ur sick questions again:

So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.
1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??
2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?
3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?
4. What was the alleged crime?
5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)

I don’t know what kind of evidence u want! I m working on that youtube video anyway!

The statistics for one woman being beaten every 15 seconds is from Amnesty's website - and the same place has global comparisons. Do I think Iranians batter their women more frequently than Americans - I'd have to say I don't believe this.

Looooooooool! That shows u have no clue what s going on here! You think they have real stats for wife battery in Iran? You think govt let such information go out?

FYI, Alcohol consumption rate is very high in Iran. We got bottles from black market And we made it inside houses, (Uragh, sharab, any kind!!) but what do u know? U want evidence! Loool

Again, FYI, even muslims drink alcohol in Iran. Like you, they interpret verses in their own ways! Haha!

But aside from alcohol, what gives men authority to hit women here, is not just from alcohol consumption. It is because they think they are superior, because of those verses.

The wife is not given the same right because it would be both impractical and stupid. The wife has to resort to the other measures Islam gives her - ultimately the right to divorce or imprisonment for the husband.

Divorce for women? It is very very very difficult in Islam. Or maybe u have ur own version again here. As they want evidence to prove the guy abused her. And it lots of the cases it s not possible.

God states that men are different from women biologically, and all differences in responsibilities etc stem from this. God also explicitly states that men and women are equal in terms of spirituality, reward etc

Yeah, he stated different things, somewhere he stated men are in charge of women, some other part he stated they are equal! So don’t count on it very much!

shafique wrote:Here's my challenge - you say that all physical abuse against another person is an offence in the West.

No. I said in other countries after referring to Saudi Arabia. What I think is that all physical abuse is an offence against humanity, and is especially offensive when the abuser is physically stronger than the abusee, and is even more especially offensive when the abuser uses some form of authority to justify the abuse (for example law or religion), and is even more especially offensive when the abuser is in a position of authority themselves.

shafique wrote:Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?

Yes, I'm sure there are. That's why there are courts.

If there is a law that says do not beat your partner, then if someone thinks they are in a situation where they are justified in beating their partner, hopefully they will think more carefully, knowing that they might have to stand up in a court of law and explain why their action was justified.

shafique wrote:I would argue that yes, there are certainly exceptions to the law that would allow a man to be found not guilty of abuse or murder. Do you agree? (I'll leave this line of argument here for now -it's just an interesting aside, and not central to my argument relating to what God says in the Quran)

There are always exceptions to the law. That's why there are courts. Of course when the courts start with the premise that wife-beating is acceptable, such as in Saudi Arabia, then that encourges men who want to beat their wives to think it's ok.

If religious authorities take a verse from a holy book and say that it gives permission to men to beat their wives then some men who rely on religious authorities for guidance will think it's ok to beat their wives.

shafique wrote:My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.

Corporal and capital punishment is physical abuse as far as I am concerned. And yes, I can think of scenarios where I would want to see capital punishment carried out but that does not make me a better human being, that is a reflection of my desire for vengance as a human weakness.

If men (or women) want to use religion to justify abusing other people, that does not make them better humans, it just makes it easier in their eyes to be less human.

I have read other arguments (from what I assume are Islamic scholars or authorities) that that particular verse in the Koran does not give permission for men to beat their wives. I don't know whether it does or does not but I do know that their are many men in this world who think it does.

You sound like you are looking for a way to justify or defend wife-beating. I'm glad I'm not your wife.

bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.

Bonk, if you haven't figured it out yet, shafique is a bit a religious fanatic and someone who isn't incredibly bright.

He likes to type out long winded, poorly written posts that often go off in every direction.

He also repeats himself a lot (such as saying 'agreed' about two dozen times in that last post) and not going a single post without using one of these -

I admit, I had reread your response to him because it was like you were talking to a child. Shafique has absolutely no common sense.

bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.

Seriously. I am awed that shafique has enough brain power to turn his computer on.