bonk wrote:The difference between a small tap and brutal assault is one of degree, not principle. What Mike Tyson might consider a pat on the back, is probably going feel to me like someone swung a sledgehammer at my shoulders.
Agreed.
A separate discussion is whether corporal and capital punishment is ever justified - and if 'yes' then the same issue arises - corporal punishment vs brutal assault, capital punishment vs murder.
The crux of the matter is whether the 'line' as you put it below is set at a level which allows Muslim men to batter their wives.
I reject the premise that what God allows in this one verse constitutes a green light to wife beating. I understand others think that what this verse allows is 'barbaric' etc - but I also insist that evidence can and should be presented to support a view that Islam promotes/encourages/condones wife beating.
bonk wrote:You might think that not a single Muslim man uses that verse to justify hitting their wives but the only fact there is that you don't know, as you yourself said.
Again - agreed. That is why the discussion is in two parts.
Part 1 - does God say that men can batter their wives? Or is this verse about corporal punishment?
Part 2 - does any Muslim man use this verse to justify beating their wives?
It is a given that domestic abuse is endemic - both in Muslim countries and the West. The point of this thread is to either accept or disprove the notion that Islam condones wife beating.
If wife beating is endemic - then this implies that if everyone stopped following the Quran or Bible, then wife beating won't be eradicated. Similarly, I would argue that even if you introduced very harsh penalties for just raising your voice against your wife (let alone slapping/beating) - this would not eradicate the problem either. (We'll also gloss over the fact that 'eh' will provide copious excuses/explanations for the catalogue of misogynistic verses in the Bible, but does not accept a literal understanding of this one verse!)
bonk wrote:In any society there are men who abuse their wives, and most of the time will try and find a reason to justify their abuse. Whether it be drunkeness, frustration, depression, religion, or whatever. It's still abuse.
I've said the same many times - I'm glad you agree.
The question becomes whether what Islam allows constitutes abuse or not. I say it does not- any more than the other injuctions about lashes or executions (and also forgiveness) constitute abuse against criminals or their victims.
bonk wrote: There are a number of Muslim authorities who claim that that verse in the Koran allows men to beat their wives, and even go as far to give instructions on how to beat wives so that there are no marks left.
And this is certainly worth exploring. Does this contribute to wife beating in Muslim countries?
My 'Part 2' above suggests it does not - for the verse and these instructions (which is actually about corporal punishment) are not and cannot be used to justify spousal abuse - specifically wife battery.
My argument is that wife beating occurs despite this verse, not because of it.
An examination of the verse shows that this does not provide an excuse for a husband to be violent against his wife.
bonk wrote: That plays right into the hands of a violent husband looking for a convenient excuse to justify their beatings.
It's a great hypothesis - but one I maintain can be tested, both theoretically and in practice. The theory comes from examining what the one verse says, and the practice is to look for instances where men use this verse as an excuse.
Thus far, there has been a lot of hot air. Your first link does not provide any evidence that the verse is used by wife beaters. Your second and third links are appropriate though. For the second though, no details are given about the facts that led to the verdict - or whether the man used the Quran as an excuse. (And I'm sure you won't argue that Western courts have never set free men who've hit their wives - despite what the law says)
I'll challenge you on a specific point you make though.. see below
Rania’s Husband Gets Six Months’ Jail, 300 Lashes
Maha Akeel, Arab News
JEDDAH, 31 May 2004 — Rania Al-Baz’s husband has been sentenced to six months in jail and 300 lashes for beating his wife almost to death.
Who decides where that line is? Usually men.
In other countries, the matter is made much more simple. There is no line. Physical abuse of one human being by another is an offence.
I agree.
Every time a woman beaten in the US (once every 15 seconds according to Amnesty), it is an offence. In Islam wife beating is not allowed, but only corporal punishment in specific circumstances.
Therefore we can test the hypothesis that Islam encourages wife beating or leads to women being oppressed. The comparison should be against societies where people don't believe the Quran is God's words.
Logically, the law in the US must deter some people from raising their hands against their wives. Right?
If it wasn't for the law, therefore a woman would be beaten once every 10 seconds - or even more frequently?
I take a rather more practical view - the problem of wife beating has more to do with other factors than what the law says. A man knows it is wrong to batter his wife - certainly Islam teaches you this fact, and this verse emphasises this fact.
Here's my challenge - you say that all physical abuse against another person is an offence in the West. (I would argue that the same is the case in Islam - with the emphasis on the abuse.) The challenge is to ask whether the law allows for exceptions or not - are there ANY instances where a man can be set free for hitting his wife (or in extremis killing her)? Let's discard any case where it can't be proven - and concentrate on cases where the man admits to hitting/killing the wife. Would there be ANY circumstance where the man would be found not guilty of abuse/murder - i.e. where the court will justify this action?
I would argue that yes, there are certainly exceptions to the law that would allow a man to be found not guilty of abuse or murder. Do you agree? (I'll leave this line of argument here for now -it's just an interesting aside, and not central to my argument relating to what God says in the Quran)
Physical abuse is especially offensive because is is usually carried out by someone against a physically weaker person, such as parent against child, husband against wife (or wife against husband as sometimes happens), school bully in playground. Such abuse is a malevolent reflection of the darker side of humans.
I couldn't have said it better.
My whole argument is that Islam's teachings are in total accordance with this. The fact that Islam also prescribes corporal and capital punishments - eg lashes and executions - does not change this. The harsher the crime, the harsher the punishment - this is what we believe God ordains as justice for society and the victims.
Cheers,
Shafique