Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Fascinating discussion.

Legislating what someone can wear is now clearly a political and/or cultural issue, rather than something to do with safety or whatever else reason.

Chocs - aren't you just arguing that it is ok to be intolerant of someone else if they look different from you? How is that different from the same arguments that applied to Blacks and Asians in the 60s and 70s (they talk different, smell different, eat differently, have funny music).

All this over a piece of cloth covering a lady's face?

This from Linda Heard of Gulf news:

It appears that some Europeans consider Muslims fair game. Imagine the outcry if police were empowered to whip off a Sikh's turban, a nun's habit or an orthodox Jew's tallit (prayer shawl). It just wouldn't happen.

If these bans were based primarily on security concerns, the Europeans would have a stronger argument. But they're not. Instead, Belgian and French politicians are fierce in their concern for the well-being of Muslim women all of a sudden. Do you seriously buy that? Thought not!

http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists ... n-1.621933

Cheers,
Shafique

Speak different language, create ghettos... Oh, sorry it's about Russia. UK is probably opposite.

shafique wrote:Fascinating discussion.

Legislating what someone can wear is now clearly a political and/or cultural issue, rather than something to do with safety or whatever else reason.

Chocs - aren't you just arguing that it is ok to be intolerant of someone else if they look different from you? How is that different from the same arguments that applied to Blacks and Asians in the 60s and 70s (they talk different, smell different, eat differently, have funny music).

All this over a piece of cloth covering a lady's face?

This from Linda Heard of Gulf news:

It appears that some Europeans consider Muslims fair game. Imagine the outcry if police were empowered to whip off a Sikh's turban, a nun's habit or an orthodox Jew's tallit (prayer shawl). It just wouldn't happen.

If these bans were based primarily on security concerns, the Europeans would have a stronger argument. But they're not. Instead, Belgian and French politicians are fierce in their concern for the well-being of Muslim women all of a sudden. Do you seriously buy that? Thought not!

http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists ... n-1.621933

Cheers,
Shafique

No I have stated time and time again, if women choose to wear headscarves etc then no problem! It's not about other religions, where you wear turnban's, habits, crosses etc, the problem comes when a person cannot be identified because their entire face is covered - no one else does this! Really what ios so difficult to understand here?! These laws will come into force and if they don't like it either, uncover or go live somewhere where it's acceptable to cover your entire body from head to toe.

RC, The UK has become one GIANT ghetto!

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

The discussion goes back to it being a security risk. It keeps bouncing around from security risk, culture, religon and then back now to security.

desertdudeshj wrote:Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

The discussion goes back to it being a security risk. It keeps bouncing around from security risk, culture, religon and then back now to security.

Well that is the underlying issue now isn't it! So as I keep saying, if you have nothing to hide, what's the big deal?

Although as dumb as this law is. Its nothing but political sabre rattling to gain brownie points with the xenophobes.

hmmm burka or a scarf as a security threat hmmmm I think you might be able to hide a bomb in a burka and get away with it whereas with a head scarf no no it doesnt make sense. Imagine this a suicide bomber with headscarf with two bombs hidden in her scarf running towards you :S that WILL STICK OUT for SURE!!! It will look like the poor womans got puberty bumps on her head of something

yes maybe a burka is a security threat but there are ways of tackling that issue. YES it will cost you lots of millions but the americans have done it, regardless of whatever you are wearing even a burka they will make you jolly run along in a Xray machine and your whole skeleton will pop up on the screen revealing which brand your undies are and when you last washed them and guess what most of them are not happy because it is REVEALING TOO much lol you cant make everyone happy in this sad world seriously http://www.medindia.net/news/British-Ai ... 9702-1.htm

so the bottom line is the french and the belgium are bunch of puffters who have got nothing better then to do, dont want to invest in a hi end security system but do it the cheap way by passing out g@y laws.


so heres one european country which want to make sure that they can see every Muslim womans face body etc etc with a naked eye and then theres one EUROPEAN country which doesnt like it when TOO MUCH is revealed

i guess we should all start wearing plastic bags and tissue paper here and there to cover our body parts

Well, for me the discussion has made it clear that a view that women should not be allowed to dress as they like in public is just a sign of intolerance of others, based on what they choose to wear.

As Linda Heard concludes:

If these bans were based primarily on security concerns, the Europeans would have a stronger argument. But they're not. Instead, Belgian and French politicians are fierce in their concern for the well-being of Muslim women all of a sudden. Do you seriously buy that? Thought not!

The consensus amongst most of the posters appears to support this view - i.e. that the +primary+ reason for banning burqas (and this appears to be what those in support of the ban also believe, if we judge the posts dealing with the justification) is NOT security, but because of what some people think the burqa represents (at its best - a subjugation of women; and at its worst - a symbol of Islam).

If it was an issue of security, they would not be seeking to ban women from wearing the burqa on the streets and parks - but just in banks etc. But this argument falls apart because there are already regulations and signs which take care of this.

Therefore, I'm having a hard time distinguishing the views of supporters of this ban from those of chev-the-chav's - at least in what both want in respect of burqas.

At least most of the supporters have the good conscious to recoil at the comparison Linda makes between banning the face veil and ripping off the habit of a nun or a Jew's prayer shawl. It's just a shame that Ihaven't convinced me and others that the supporters' views do not reflect a general tendency for petty xenophobia and Islamophobia.

Blaming it on security concerns doesn't convince me, and the arguments above have led to most concluding that 'security' is a smokescreen.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote: So as I keep saying, if you have nothing to hide, what's the big deal?

How do you think most women would feel about a ban on all make-up?

If they have 'nothing to hide, what's the big deal'?

It will save money, time and the environment. It may even save some poor bunny rabbits (if they still test cosmetics on them). It will also make women conform to the rest of society who do not see any need to plaster their faces and change their appearance. We don't need to redden our lips or smooth out our blemishes or bleach our moustaches or pluck our eyebrows - so you should just conform.

I hope you'll join me in sponsoring such a law and justifying to the poor oppressed women who will no doubt object.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
We don't need to redden our lips or smooth out our blemishes or bleach our moustaches or pluck our eyebrows - so you should just conform.
Cheers,
Shafique

Really? Have you been to the male beauty spa in Emirates Towers?
Black beard dye is 'de rigeur' for older locals these days.



Knight

^Good point - but hey, let the oldies also conform too!

But can you imagine the fuss the ladies would kick up if Norway, say, banned make-up - and said all ladies should go au naturel. (My wife would be one of the most voiciferous!)


Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you completely go off on a tangent! Wearing make-up you can still see someone's FACE!!!! That's the point! Really what is so hard about this for you to understand?! Trying to explain it to you really is like talking to a brick wall.

How about this, I'll put it in terms for dummies for you:

Ban ANYTHING that COMPLETELY covers the FACE of ANYONE! I cannot make it any simpler or clearer than that!

Plus once again you're being completely hypocritical, oh so we have to comform to the law of the land in countries like Saudi and the UAE, yet the minute European countries enforce their laws, there's uproar. As I have already said, if you don't like it - naff off!

OH FYI RB, the latest is women having bombs hidden inside breast implants - they're undetectable! ANother reason why the full body scanners are necessary.

Chocoholic wrote:Shaf, you completely go off on a tangent! Wearing make-up you can still see someone's FACE!!!! That's the point! Really what is so hard about this for you to understand?!

Why cover up your natural features - 'if you have nothing to hide, what is the problem'?

C'mon - you surely can follow through on your logic, why not join me in asking for a ban on make up? Is my argument not as logical as yours?

Think of all those poor oppressed women who have bought into the ideology that they need to cover up their faces (with make up) when they are in the company of men! Let's liberate them!

We could start small- say only banning make up in public places like parks and the street and the shopping mall? What do you say?



Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:
OH FYI RB, the latest is women having bombs hidden inside breast implants - they're undetectable! ANother reason why the full body scanners are necessary.

When you have to resort to quoting some imagined threat that someone dreamt up (and made into print) as 'fact' - I laugh even harder.

You may have missed it - but one of the resident trolls presented this story a while back - and we all laughed at the suggestion that butt implants were also suggested as perfect places to place explosives!

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said before, stupid argument really as make-up does not 'obscure' your features, you can tell who someone is. You cannot compare the two. Seriously zero logic. Waste of time discussing it with you as you don't get it, aren't gonna get it.

Nothing left to say.

Chocoholic wrote:As I said before, stupid argument really as make-up does not 'obscure' your features, you can tell who someone is. You cannot compare the two. Seriously zero logic. Waste of time discussing it with you as you don't get it, aren't gonna get it.

So, you're not going to join me in calling for a ban on make-up in public places then?

I am indeed comparing the two - and using the argument 'if you have nothing to hide, what is the problem' to link the two. You don't like a piece of cloth which obscures someone's natural face, I'm arguing that we should also ban make up which obscures someone's natural face.

Seems logical to me. Surely you don't want to censor my thoughts?

Cheers,
Shafique

None comparable argument! Now if it were a woman in a burka, and a women wearing a balaclava to keep warm or something, that's comparable.

Like I said, not getting it, never gonna get it.

It's going to be law, the rest of Europe will follow, get over it. Go live in a tough regimed muslim country if it bothers you so much.

ok tell me this should they ban breast implants? Or should they invest in a technology in detecting bombs and explosives hidden in breast implants? Or should they make every single woman i.e muslim and non-muslim line up, take them into a room, take their clothes off and physically check them. If that were to happen with you, would you be comfortable?

ok then queen chocolokopis of chocoland what do you think they should do? lets forget burkas and islam here. lets think logically and use our common sense

think...... think....... think...... think.....

rudeboy wrote:ok tell me this should they ban breast implants? Or should they invest in a technology in detecting bombs and explosives hidden in breast implants? Or should they make every single woman i.e muslim and non-muslim line up, take them into a room, take their clothes off and physically check them. If that were to happen with you, would you be comfortable?

ok then queen chocolokopis of chocoland what do you think they should do? lets forget burkas and islam here. lets think logically and use our common sense

think...... think....... think...... think.....

Nope as I said, this is the reason the full body scanners are being introduced because it is literally the only way to detect them, and why people kicked off at 'certain' people when they said they'd refuse to use them. Sorry but again for security reasons, NO-ONE is exempt.

Physical checks would do no good, you still couldn't detect them, all you would 'feel' would be the implant, you wouldn't be able to tell if something was inside it, you need a scan - christ do you guys know nothing about how stuff works.

You have a brain, could you please use it once in a while!

Chocoholic wrote:None comparable argument!

So you disagree with my argument for banning make-up, even though you don't dispute it covers up a lady's natural features.

How about banning full face prosethics which totally change one's appearance - that makes a thin woman look fat, or an asian woman look white? Wouldn't this be a genuine security issue?


I still think that you're missing my point completely about equating banning of make-up with banning of a piece of cloth. Both are as ridiculous as each other in my book - but I see we won't agree on this point.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:Nope as I said, this is the reason the full body scanners are being introduced because it is literally the only way to detect them, and why people kicked off at 'certain' people when they said they'd refuse to use them. Sorry but again for security reasons, NO-ONE is exempt.

Chocs - you shouldn't believe everything you read - especially if it comes from The Sun and Fox News, and where their source is Joseph Farah.
(seriously)

Cheers,
Shafique

chocs i deal in xray equipment I know how they work luv

ok fear enough we have come to a conclusion that breast implants can be examined by xrays. Now dont you think xrays can exaime what a person is hiding behind a burka or hijaab or a scarf? Yes they will. Ok fair enough you will come across some people muslims and non-muslims who dont want to pass through that machine, so you take them in a private room and check them there or you just tell them that sorry either you have to do it this way or you are not allowed in.

these equipment are EXPENSIVE, some governments go ahead and buy it to secure their people i.e USA, UK and Dubai example of dubai is terminal 3. As soon as you walk in there are scanners which scan your bag. What it means is you dont have to take your luggage off put it into a machine and put it back on to your trolley.

Other countries or governments who probably have the funds just pass out g@y laws such as this. Ok fine there might be one or two terroists who might wear a burka but why make the whole general public suffer and get them to hate you?

-- Tue May 04, 2010 10:09 am --

and as for the burkas that cover the full face, again for security reasons its best to take them into a separate room and ask them to politely remove the veil so that we can see your face and validate its the correct person etc etc.

There are ways on getting things done and technology has advanced so much that we can do anything.

Laws like this will only create unrest amongst muslim minorities who will think they are being targetted while other minorities such as jews or sikhs get away with it.

Its a shame that there are no people in the belgiuqe government who could have used their common sense before passing out this law.


Oh well I guess it gives the new candidate government a marketting stunt to get the votes from muslim minorities in return they will get rid of such laws

RB, I'll pull out a couple of bits - 'Muslim MINORITIES' yes covering your entire face is a minority so deal with what the 'MAJORITY' want, and as previously stated if you don't like the law of the land - go away!

Bringing up other religious groups - again as previously stated - is a moot point, because none of them cover their entire face so you can't tell who a person is, so why would governments have an issue with them?

As already said time and time again, there is no issue with a headscarf, but the burka obscures the entire identity of a person. And don't give me the 'it's about choices' argument, because I seriously doubt that many women would choose to wear one, they're forced to.

For me, as a woman, to see others repressed in such a way is not acceptable to me. We're in the 21st century for goodness sake, if you want to live in the dark ages, go live in some backward country in the back and beyond somewhere.

Chocoholic wrote:
Nope as I said, this is the reason the full body scanners are being introduced because it is literally the only way to detect them, and why people kicked off at 'certain' people when they said they'd refuse to use them. Sorry but again for security reasons, NO-ONE is exempt.

Why would politicians deal with the criminal rather than crime itself. Why wouldn't they get into the root cause that drive people become security threats in the first place? Is that becouse they couldn't give a damn to find policies/laws so that enables everyone stay happy.
Why politicians only tackle problems on temporary solutions when the actual reasons still linger around..It's like when someone has cancer you avoid operating on the tumor but try to suppress it using drugs instead...It surely will fail no matter how hard they try...

So if ladies use headscarf instead, do you really believe that the security problems will be resolved under such pressure which will cause even further hatred everytime an issue of islam comes up? Becouse the message will never be understood as campaign towards security and niqab but towards suppression of islam and muslims.

Sure the further you'll mingle with islam and peoples will and choice, the more your countries will decline into political chaos and anarchy. Who will benefit from all of this?...The ladies wearing make up or the ladies wearing veil?

guys no point arguing with her highness chocloclpucus because she has already made her decision and once it is decided it is decided for the whole land

we are not worthy your highness

I wonder if she waves to people as well

As I keep saying and you guys keep avoiding the point, if EVERYONE else has to show their face. Why should some people feel expemt from that?

Eish. Yeah no point arguing because you've not given a decent argument to the above question. But then you're all MEN s wy should I expect you to even get it in the first place.

Berrin wrote:Why would politicians deal with the criminal rather than crime itself. Why wouldn't they get into the root cause that drive people become security threats in the first place? Is that becouse they couldn't give a damn to find policies/laws so that enables everyone stay happy.
Why politicians only tackle problems on temporary solutions when the actual reasons still linger around..It's like when someone has cancer you avoid operating on the tumor but try to suppress it using drugs instead...It surely will fail no matter how hard they try...

There is no law in the world that makes everybody happy. It's always compromise. If some foreigner comes to my house and puts his feet on my coffee-table or wash his feet in my sinck, where I usually shave my face, I will never be happy regardless of how many times you call me chav, xenophobe or islamophobe.

You Berrin with your absract ideas in architecture cannot compromise. That's why such laws are issued.

Berrin wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:
Nope as I said, this is the reason the full body scanners are being introduced because it is literally the only way to detect them, and why people kicked off at 'certain' people when they said they'd refuse to use them. Sorry but again for security reasons, NO-ONE is exempt.

Why would politicians deal with the criminal rather than crime itself. Why wouldn't they get into the root cause that drive people become security threats in the first place? Is that becouse they couldn't give a damn to find policies/laws so that enables everyone stay happy.
Why politicians only tackle problems on temporary solutions when the actual reasons still linger around..It's like when someone has cancer you avoid operating on the tumor but try to suppress it using drugs instead...It surely will fail no matter how hard they try...

So if ladies use headscarf instead, do you really believe that the security problems will be resolved under such pressure which will cause even further hatred everytime an issue of islam comes up? Becouse the message will never be understood as campaign towards security and niqab but towards suppression of islam and muslims.

Sure the further you'll mingle with islam and peoples will and choice, the more your countries will decline into political chaos and anarchy. Who will benefit from all of this?...The ladies wearing make up or the ladies wearing veil?

That's a really easy question to answer! It's because of the PC brigade and the human rights morons who stand up and start screaming everytime governments try to deal with the problems, er that would be the criminals, afterall there has to be a criminal to commit a crime - DUH! And as I keep saying, till I'm blue in the face, until 'certain' people stop considering themselves different from others and enforcing their ways, these issues will continue.

Really simple answer, if you don't like it! Piss off!

feel like loads of people saying why doesnt her highness just bloody piss off

i bet bora is thinking the same

Oh I disagree, many a woman are totally unregcognisable without their make on ! And many men will also vouch for that when they wake up next to someone they did not go to sleep with !

A few examples from the world of bollywood !







I think makeup is more of a security risk that the Niquab !