Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

^So Chocs - how many of the 30 women in Belgium wearing the burka are doing so because they are forced to by 'insecure small men'?

Why should these women (who are forced) be prevented from playing with their kids in the park? (And, more to my point, why should women who choose to wear the burka be prevented from playing with their kids in the park?)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:^So Chocs - how many of the 30 women in Belgium wearing the burka are doing so because they are forced to by 'insecure small men'?

Why should these women (who are forced) be prevented from playing with their kids in the park? (And, more to my point, why should women who choose to wear the burka be prevented from playing with their kids in the park?)

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't think they should wear it anyway, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, which by the way I'm entitled to!. And if they are forced to wear it by male relatives, then they should be fined for doing so, as France wanted to do. I do not belive that any woman should have to cover up! Take it off and go play with your children!

I said a few posts ago that I'll fight for your right to express your opinions.

I simply was exploring whether your opinion on the law in Belgium was based on anything more solid than the excuses we've been reading on why this law is a good idea. (Edit - the difference being here a law is being used to impose your strongly held view on others. I also have strong views that 'muffin tops', shell suits, mullets etc are affronts to the eye and should ideally be banned, but I would never think of banning them by law.)

So, a woman who chooses to wear a burka shouldn't play in the park with her kids in Beligium (or any other country where your view will prevail). Fair enough.

Seems a bit harsh to me though. I'm sure you'll agree that I'm entitled to my opinions too.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:No one is allowed to wear crash helmets, hoodie tops, balaclavas etc in shops, banks etc so why should these women be exempt.

The signage for not permitting the wearing of those items are at the discretion of the owners. It's not the LAW.

er yes it is actually! Bora, quite frankly I don't care if people are a visitor or a resident of my home country, why do you think we're all leaving? Because we're sick to death of people taking over and enforcing their values and ways of life on us! FFS we're not even allowed to celebrate St George's Day or Christmas properly anymore - that I have a major issue with. Yet the UAE embraces all cultures and celebrates all the religious holidays, regardless of whom they belong to, and that is a great thing. I know exactly what I can and can't wear here and what is appropriate in certain places and what isn't. And your arguments are invalid, when you see the number of muslims and locals in bars/clubs etc, please some of the arab women dress in a far more salacious way than most westerners - Lebanese and Egyptians are classic examples.

You can think what you like, but the UAE has many many positives and trumps many European countries.

Anyway like I said, it's a brave, bold and good step forward and I hope the rest of Europe follows in their footsteps, because believe me people are sick to death of it.

And nowhere in the Koran does it say woman should cover their faces, hair either, so that's all a moot point. It simply states that MEN and WOMEN should dress modestly shoulders to knees. The whole women covering completely is enforced by sad little men with big insecurities.

Did a search and could not find the not permitted, etc., as a law. Please provide link.

Chocs, who exactly are these "people taking over" who are enforcing their values and lifestyle on you? Are you referring to locals and the laws of the UAE? This is their country, not yours. They are not required, and don't feel the need, to remove laws or put laws on the books to please the expats. I think Dubai, in particular, has relaxed in many ways to accommodate expats.

As for people leaving in numbers, the majority were made redunant Chocs. There are those who feel it is time to move on either back home or to another country, not because they were losing their grip on what you may think "people were taking over" to what may belong to them. When the Brits helped to establish the UAE, it didn't get ownership rights to the UAE when doing so.

Why you point out how Lebanese and Egyptians dress is lost on me. You forgot to mention the Brits, South Africans, Filipinos, Americans, Russians, etc.. They are expats. I think you digressed in your post.

You are annoyed by immigrants pushing their lifestyle on countries they choose to migrate to and became citizens of, such as, "your country", yet you are very vocal about the laws of this country where you are for all intent, a guest. I pointed out how some westerners, like you, rant about the laws here. The UAE is not for some people and they are free to leave, as you are, to go back home or find another location that doesn't put restrictions or limitations on their lifestyle.

Your statement "you can think what you like, etc." would lead one to think that I am the one who has issues with the UAE, when in fact I don't (again, you digress), it's you that has them and have been very vocal about them.

I may not agree with some of the laws, but I certainly wouldn't leave the country because they offend my sensibilities nor do they have such a profound impact on my lifestyle to the point that I feel I have to leave.

As for celebrating holidays, your statement is such a contradiction!!! Go back and read it please (text in italics). First you say your can't, then you say you can. You have been here long enough to recall that at one time there were little signs of Christmas. You might see a Xmas tree in the lobby of a hotel, but it would come down the day before Christmas. Today there are decorated Xmas trees everywhere that stay up through the Christmas holiday and people do make the best of it. For the most part the only thing missing is the cold and snow.

You need to take inventory Chocs and come to the conclusion that maybe it's time you moved on. You are not a happy camper.

LOL how about I go play with children in a park wearing a balaclava, combat trousers and army jumper - people will think I'm a member of the IRA!!!!

Chocoholic wrote:LOL how about I go play with children in a park wearing a balaclava, combat trousers and army jumper - people will think I'm a member of the IRA!!!!

Why should there be a law to prevent you doing that? If you are just playing with your kids, and it's cold or you don't want to show off your rhinoplasty scars - why shouldn't you be allowed to wear a balaclava in the park with your kids?

I'm assuming that you're not equating everyone who wears a balaclava with terrorists - or that you're not equating a burka with terrorism.

So, tell me again why you think we should legislate against balclava wearing mothers (and those who choose to wear a burqa)?

Cheers,
Shafique

Belgian law-makers do know best and the women should just accept that they can't decide for themselves what to wear in public.

as the BNP would say if you dont like the laws of the land pack your bags and F.. off & if you asked them nicely the would even help you

Hey chev - I always suspected you were a redneck, but given your reference to the BNP, I guess you are indeed 'chev the chav'!

Bloody good show, what? (PS apologies for 'dissing muffin tops, shell suits and mullets!)



Do you own such a hat, perchance?:




Cheers,
Shafique

I really don't get what the hue and cry is all about. This is just a bit of politiking more than anything else. They're probably just sending out a message via the additional minaret ban, the burqa ban etc. to ME countries that they should also be a little more accommodating of other religions in they're own backyards.And that is all it is.
The individual is in no way affected by all of this. If ur a Muslim in Europe you can still very much practice ur faith freely, this is simply high level politics......for now. But who knows where this campaign is headed or what is the real motif behind it? Maybe they're trying to check fundamentalism or just maybe they are indeed right about the fact that those women in that attire might indeed be victims? I guess we'll just have to wait and watch.

But seriously Shafique ur arguments thus far have been lame...you seem hell bent on defending this attire, I mean do you have a wife or a daughter? Do they don such attire? If you did'nt know let me assure you that there are alternate ways of dressing modestly...ok?

Misery Called Life wrote:I really don't get what the hue and cry is all about. This is just a bit of politiking more than anything else. They're probably just sending out a message via the additional minaret ban,

This Belgium, the minaret ban was in Switzerland.

You're justification that this is really a dig at Middle East countries and their attitudes to Western expats/visitors is a new one - and I guess does have some logic. However, I haven't heard any Beligian politicians say this - what are you basing this view on?

Misery Called Life wrote:But seriously Shafique ur arguments thus far have been lame...you seem hell bent on defending this attire,

I thought I was asking for arguments why such a ban makes sense - rather than giving arguments myself. I've yet to see a valid argument why a woman who chooses to wear a burqa should not be able to wear it in the park.

I seriously don't view this question as a 'lame argument'.

As for challenging the other arguments given in favour of the law - eg it is for security purposes - what's lame about my observations?

Misery Called Life wrote:I mean do you have a wife or a daughter? Do they don such attire? If you did'nt know let me assure you that there are alternate ways of dressing modestly...ok?

I have a wife and 3 daughters. None of my immediate family wear a burqa, but my brother's wife chooses to do so. So, of course I agree that there are other ways of dressing modestly - but I'm asking for any reasonable reason for leglislating against wearing a burqa.

(I'm not making a fuss about it - as I said, I chuckle at the reasoning people give for it.)

Cheers,
Shafique

LOL how about I go play with children in a park wearing a balaclava, combat trousers and army jumper - people will think I'm a member of the IRA!!!!

Choc how about fancying a nice s exy bond girl with cool glasses bombing the hell out of security...
Sure they will think she is a businesswoman!

-- Mon May 03, 2010 3:47 pm --

I really don't get what the hue and cry is all about. This is just a bit of politiking more than anything else. They're probably just sending out a message via the additional minaret ban, the burqa ban etc. to ME countries that they should also be a little more accommodating of other religions in they're own backyards.And that is all it is.

If you read the history of Ottoman muslims..You would see how generous they were towards their christian minorities and trading christian nations..But this generosity, especially capitulations started to became a reason for their political decline and destruction by the same minorities and their nations. So Arabs as much as Turks must have learned their lessons very well....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulati ... man_Empire

I have to agree with MCL that it is more politically motivated than anything else.

As Chocs said, the Koran does not say that the burka/face veil is a "requirement". The face veil is not necessarily religious, but more about modesty that is practiced within a culture/society. Granted, it may be an extreme form of modesty perceived by other cultures/societies.

On the other hand Western countries have gone to the other extreme. Modesty and morals go hand in hand. And developed countries seriously lack practicing modesty and morals and instilling same into their children. The number of children born to teenagers in western countries is mindboggling. Yes, there are child brides in many countries, but that is a result of ignorance, lack of education and/or either being left out of a society moving forward or by chosing not to join such a society and remain in the villages.

Modesty, the lack of:

Breast feeding a child is a very natural act and has been done since the beginning of time by Arabs. It's definitely nothing new. But in all my years in the UAE I have never, ever seen an Arab woman breast feed a child in public. But I have seen many westerners who take it upon themselves to share those moments with the general public. In spite of the fact that many ladies facilities have rooms for mothers to tend to their child in privacy, there is still a need to "share". Most people are uncomfortable when it is a public display. I saw a westerner feed her baby at a table in a restaurant and her parents or in-laws didn't know where to look. Why is it such an effort to show some modesty and respect to those around? I saw a woman sit in a food court, not away from people for her to have some privacy, but sat at a table facing where she could be seen by people coming and going, pumping her breast while feed the baby and was looking all around her as if waiting for someone to challenge her.

Western pregnant women: why can't they buy clothing that fits??? In public: who wants to see the baby bump sticking out between the bottom of the shirt that doesn't fit to the top of her pants that can only reach the bottom of the baby bump? Where's the modesty??

Ramadan: see way too many girls/women who have total disregard or respect for Muslims during this time. Would it take too much effort to show some modesty in the way they dress, just out of respect??

All of the above is just plain western arrogance.

Girlfriend turns into Wife: I love it when I see these men with their trophy on their arm showcasing their girlfriend dressed like a tart, but, of course. at the time he doesn't see it that way. Then they get married and all of a sudden he no longer thinks its appropriate and wants her to be more modest in the way she dresses "because (dressing like a tart) it doesn't look nice". What a joke!!!

So, when you see women, dressed in an abaya, for the majority, it is a statement of modesty. Their actions and behavior in public is with thought. That's why they get respect. There are many women who dress in stylish abayas and look beautiful - they still get the respect even though they are dressing "fashionable". Those women who wear the face veil: it adds to the respect level. There are cultures, societies and countries where respect and morals are still important to the individual.

Because being modest or moral doesn't fit into another person's thinking or society, doesn't mean that for those that are modest or moral are wrong.

I agree Bora - the political motivation for the action makes the most sense.

My theory is that a man invented high heeled shoes for women - I mean why would a woman intentionally cause themselves discomfort for the sake of men? However, the genius part of it are the guys who persuaded women that it is liberating for them to dress scantily!

Cheers,
Shafique

"Chocoholic
And nowhere in the Koran does it say woman should cover their faces, hair either, so that's all a moot point. It simply states that MEN and WOMEN should dress modestly shoulders to knees. The whole women covering completely is enforced by sad little men with big insecurities

Hey choc, would you be interested in reading this?
A Study of Surah an-Nur, Ayah 31
http://www.islamfortoday.com/almuhajabah01.htm


.

-- Mon May 03, 2010 5:49 pm --

Chocoholic
It simply states that MEN and WOMEN should dress modestly shoulders to knees. The whole women covering completely is enforced by sad little men with big insecurities

Choc perhaps you will also read this...
http://www.almasjid.com/content/islamic_dress_code

.

chocs here a scenario. I am sure you must pull some mens sight when you walk down the road and I dont know maybe you like it or not

but imagine this, you walk in a mini-skirt around london or even dubai and you walk past some construction labour. Do you think they will ignore you or do you think they will stare at you for 10 to 20 minutes?

now imagine this, you walk in a burka (not neccessarily covering your face) past the same labour do you think they will stare at you like they stared at you in a mini-skirt?

Yes islam doesnt say that you should cover ur face but it does say that you should wear "modest" clothes.
Yes you are covered up when wearing jeans, but if someone can make an outline of your body dont you think that is sinful? It is all about protecting us humans from the devil. If you dont believe in God or things like the devil or jins then good luck to ya matey

I dont get it, I am sure everyone remembers how we were arguing about how some EUROPEANS didnt like it when construction labour would go down to jumeriah beach and would look at some LIVE flesh and now we have some EUROPEAN country who dont want women covered in a black cloth but in some revealing clothes :S lol what is up with this world :S

lol

Bora Bora wrote: There are cultures, societies and countries where respect and morals are still important to the individual.

Good point. Why would not they go to those beatiful countries? No! Instead of integration to society they try to establish own Arabistans and Turkistans in the downtown of Brussels, Paris or London. Ban of burhka and minarets are clear messages that local people fed up of that. Respect people and people will respect you - it's two-ways street.

desertdudeshj wrote:
I don't remember the Russian Women to be burkha wearing ?

Red Chief wrote:It's because Russia is not Belgium or other Western country. Wearing burkha those Moslem (let's call things by their own names) terrorists would not have gone 100 meter without checking ID by police.

Chief don't they have any muslim women wearing burqa in Russia? (doesn't have to be black)

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote: There are cultures, societies and countries where respect and morals are still important to the individual.

Good point. Why would not they go to those beatiful countries? No! Instead of integration to society they try to establish own Arabistans and Turkistans in the downtown of Brussels, Paris or London. Ban of burhka and minarets are clear messages that local people fed up of that. Respect people and people will respect you - it's two-ways street.

First, there is no reason why people can't take their morals and values with them somewhere else. Western countries could use some morals and values in their citizens everyday life. Muslims practice the same way Christians, Jews, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus, etc., do. If a country wants to stop the call to prayer then they should stop the ringing of church bells. If the face veil is viewed as "religious" then Sikh turbans should be banned, yalmulkas should be banned, nuns and priests should not be able to leave the church in their robes and on and on and on.

I guess integrating into other societies with prostitution, drugs, human trafficking, extortion and all sorts of other related activity is the more rightous way? How is practicing a religion deemed disrepectful? Muslims have no qualms with other religions, hence respecting the right to practice and follow the religion that you worship, so why can't that be reciprocated? As you said, it's a two way street.

"Red Chief" wrote:
Good point. Why would not they go to those beatiful countries? No! Instead of integration to society they try to establish own Arabistans and Turkistans in the downtown of Brussels, Paris or London. Ban of burhka and minarets are clear messages that local people fed up of that. Respect people and people will respect you - it's two-ways street.

Good point. Why would not they go to those beatiful countries?
Apparently they are paying their due respect to their colonizers.

Ho ho..Chief don't the Russians have kazaks, Azeries, polish, turkmen living and having their own little kazahkistan, azerbaijan and turkmenistan side by side inside Russian communities?
Their only difference from Western muslims are that, not now- but about a century ago or so - Stalin communist russia had the advantage of its power and took the shite out of those muslims enforceing them to abandon their religion while applying assimilation and exiling them to siberia as well as into voluntarely accepting countries.

Some very good articles on this site to show the status of muslims in caucasus russian lands...very embarrassing in the name of humanity.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... FMAELayout

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... FMAELayout

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... FMAELayout

Bora Bora wrote:First, there is no reason why people can't take their morals and values with them somewhere else. Western countries could use some morals and values in their citizens everyday life. Muslims practice the same way Christians, Jews, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus, etc., do. If a country wants to stop the call to prayer then they should stop the ringing of church bells. If the face veil is viewed as "religious" then Sikh turbans should be banned, yalmulkas should be banned, nuns and priests should not be able to leave the church in their robes and on and on and on.

I guess integrating into other societies with prostitution, drugs, human trafficking, extortion and all sorts of other related activity is the more rightous way? How is practicing a religion deemed disrepectful? Muslims have no qualms with other religions, hence respecting the right to practice and follow the religion that you worship, so why can't that be reciprocated? As you said, it's a two way street.

Bora I will never play bridge with you because you are cheating. As all our homebred scholars said and you agreed that burkha is not a religious attribute but customs and promotion some way of life. France and Belgium have another place for women in society.

As for respect: Is constructing minaret higher than local church nearby respectful to local comunity?

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:First, there is no reason why people can't take their morals and values with them somewhere else. Western countries could use some morals and values in their citizens everyday life. Muslims practice the same way Christians, Jews, Protestants, Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus, etc., do. If a country wants to stop the call to prayer then they should stop the ringing of church bells. If the face veil is viewed as "religious" then Sikh turbans should be banned, yalmulkas should be banned, nuns and priests should not be able to leave the church in their robes and on and on and on.

I guess integrating into other societies with prostitution, drugs, human trafficking, extortion and all sorts of other related activity is the more rightous way? How is practicing a religion deemed disrepectful? Muslims have no qualms with other religions, hence respecting the right to practice and follow the religion that you worship, so why can't that be reciprocated? As you said, it's a two way street.

Bora I will never play bridge with you because you are cheating. As all our homebred scholars said and you agreed that burkha is not a religious attribute but customs and promotion some way of life. France and Belgium have another place for women in society.

As for respect: Is constructing minaret higher than local church nearby respectful to local comunity?

Two different subjects here Chief. One is custom. The other is religious. The burka/face veil is custom and is associated with modesty. Minaret and church - houses of worship - are religious.

As for the place that France and Belgium have for women in society, well we all know where that is.

I would assume that the height of a minaret must be approved by the government land department upon submission of the building plans. If the church had already been constructed before the minaret, and the construction of the minaret is approved by the government body, how is that disrespectful? It would fall to those who approved the construction to determine what impact the "height" might have on the local community. It should be up to the government to set the height limits.

Is there a minaret taller than the Vatican??

oh yeh and dont 4get that some guys or should i say some queer french guy love to wear the burqa and swim the persian gulf

hello hervie

Bora Bora wrote: Is there a minaret taller than the Vatican??

Those minarets near Holy Sophia in Constantinople are taller I think.

Redchief wrote:
As for respect: Is constructing minaret higher than local church nearby respectful to local comunity?

Actually minarets are there to be built according to the golden ratio, in contrast with the height of the central dome from ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Most often, the size of the central dome is decided according to the potential number of believers will be attending the congregation in mosque at any named area..

the hight of minarets have nothing to do with the hight of church, worship buildings are not built to provoke evil thoughts. You are swimming in dangerous waters mate..

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote: Is there a minaret taller than the Vatican??

Those minarets near Holy Sophia in Constantinople are taller I think.

Possibly, but you don't hear them complaining do you?

-- Mon May 03, 2010 8:35 pm --

Berrin wrote:

Redchief wrote:
As for respect: Is constructing minaret higher than local church nearby respectful to local comunity?

Actually minarets are there to be built according to the golden ratio, in contrast with the height of the central dome from ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Most often, the size of the central dome is decided according to the potential number of believers will be attending the congregation in mosque at any named area..

the hight of minarets have nothing to do with the hight of church, worship buildings are not built to provoke evil thoughts. You are swimming in dangerous waters mate..

Berrin, many countries apply restrictions on the height allowed on construction of a building depending on location. Even in Dubai, there are/were areas where you could not build over a certain height.

Redchief wrote:
Those minarets near Holy Sophia in Constantinople are taller I think.

Heeey.. haven't you learned your lessons from uncle stalin to live your life without a religion. I also heard that the ones escaped him now preaching islam in the holy sophia..

I don't know about Vatican but citizens of Constantinople didn't agree with constraction for sure. Probably the local land department didn't bear in mind as they should have.

After that some citizens with double-headed eagle on the banner (National Emblem of Roman Empire) complained a few times ... with weapon.

Berrin, many countries apply restrictions on the height allowed on construction of a building depending on location. Even in Dubai, there are/were areas where you could not build over a certain height.

What has restrictions got to do with architectural assessment of a properly designed building? If you meant to say political restrictions then I do understand it..

Berrin wrote:

Berrin, many countries apply restrictions on the height allowed on construction of a building depending on location. Even in Dubai, there are/were areas where you could not build over a certain height.

What has restrictions got to do with architectural assessment of a properly designed building? If you meant to say political restrictions then I do understand it..

If you read my earlier posts - restrictions are levied by government land departments - not politically motivated. When complaints are raised "your's is bigger than mine" which is generally started by politicians inciting people in the area and getting Joe Citizen to do the politican's dirty work, that's where it becomes political. Those complaining need to complain to their government who gave the approval, not those who built it.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote: There are cultures, societies and countries where respect and morals are still important to the individual.

Good point. Why would not they go to those beatiful countries? No! Instead of integration to society they try to establish own Arabistans and Turkistans in the downtown of Brussels, Paris or London. Ban of burhka and minarets are clear messages that local people fed up of that. Respect people and people will respect you - it's two-ways street.

Exactly the point. It IS a two way street RC, however sadly 'certain' people seem to forget that. I'm telling you some countries in Europe are going to end up in riots and civil unrest they're so sick of it. Locals here are allowed to say 'If you don't like it leave!' yet when Westerners say the same in their countries they get jumped on. Once again hypocrisy at its finest.