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Since I have been informed that I am misinterpreting one of the 'clear' verses in the Koran I have decided to devote a thread entirely on what the Koran says about wife beating and what women should do according to allah.

The Koran says about wife beating in verse 4:34 (Pickhtall translation):

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

And translated by Arberry:

Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

So, from this verse, we learn a few things.

1) Men are in charge of women.

2) Good women are obedient to their husbands.

3) If husbands *fear* or *suspect* 'rebellion', then men are to a) inform his wife that she is rebelling, b) send her to her room, c) and beat her.

4) Lastly, the verse says that if a wife obeys her husband again, the husband should no longer beat his wife (until she disobeys again).

A few things to point out.

The Koran never says that a husband must first tell his wife that she is disobedient then wait for her to slip up again before he can ground her and then beat her. The Koran simply says what husbands should do to a wife if she disobeys. But I cannot see any indication that a wife must rebel two more times before she is beaten.

To me, a literal and straight forward reading from both translations says that husbands may simply yell at their wives, then send them to their rooms and beat them there.

Regardless as to how the actual punishment is to be dispensed, the passage also leaves a lot of room for what a husband may beat his wife for.

The passage simply says that men may beat their wives if they *suspect* rebellion - whatever that means.

Therefore, not only may a husband beat his wife for not obeying him, but the husband need only suspect that she is disobeying him.

Now, I'm a bit old fashioned, but this passage, no matter how loftily it is interpreted (or its contents ignored), is horribly backwards and misogynist.

Only those living in the seventh century could justify a straightforward interpretation of this passage - and, as we have seen from this thread on 'wife beating - the muslim perspective' dubai-politics-talk/wife-beating-the-muslim-perspective-t39819.html , the clerics and scholars explaining how wife beating should be carried out, go to great pains to point out that towards wife beating is a Western import - the clerics in the videos will often say that Muslims only question the verses of the Koran after Westerners criticize wife beating, statutory rape or jihad.

So, it looks like modern ethics and morality in the Muslim world, as backwards as it is, is a gift from the West.

Well, you say tomato..

What I read in these clear verses is God's clear instructions as to what is allowed when it comes to physical punishment of a spouse.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Therefore the instructions from God are clear and don't match the spin that 'eh' wants to put on God's teachings.

Cheers,
Shafique

Therefore, not only may a husband beat his wife for not obeying him, but the husband need only suspect that she is disobeying him.

Brother, There is no need to suspect someone if there is no smoke..A smoke is only apparent where there is a fire..Kind of immoral/unjustified disobedience and rebellion can only be the actions of someone who practices them without a concerning thought, leaving no doubt in husbands mind.
In reality, a believing husband would most probably NEVER come to the stage where he would actually lay a hand on his wife. He would be much too careful to examine his own motives first, as a God fearing man, before exercising this right.

Could you please read this article ( which I coudn't have written better with my own words) and tell us where
it's failing to convince you...
http://islamicperspective.org/SP/2000/jun/page2.html

ps. could you also please explain what you understand from disobedience and rebellion of a wife? and its significance in keeping a united happy family which is the very basic social core of a society..A happy, modest, honorable, role model core of a society...If we can't achieve it in our families how else can we achieve it otherwise in society...In my mind Individualism certainly don't unit people for good and it tears apart social dinamics of a society as well as a nations...

Oh geez man, how delusional can this guy get?

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok

LoL

we are not allowed to beat women in anger.

Really? Where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

You can't just go around making these claims up, you know.

I would imagine after telling your wife not once, not twice, but three times (!) to make you sammiches, that you're going be putting some force into those swings.

I mean, just after repeating myself a half dozen times on this forum to the reading impaired gets me frustrated.

Now just imagine that Muslim husband, who has no compunction to slapping his wife around because he is not from a society that condemns domestic violence, having to tell his lazy wife for the third time to wash the dishes.

If that husband doesn't get angry by then, I'll get angry for him!

This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

They're just Islamophobes who don't see the beauty in beating your wife after you first sent her off to her room like a child.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out

Lol.

Pray tell, what is this 'rare' exception clearly delineated in the Koran?

(I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Nope, no s.exism in Islam.

BTW, that reminds me of the story of a newlywed couple on their way back from the altar in 19th century America.

The newlyweds are riding in a carriage and the donkey veers off the path. The husband gets out and says, 'donkey, that's once.'.

So, they go a further distance and the donkey goes off of the path another time. The man gets out and says, 'that's twice'.

A little later, the donkey goes off the road a third time and the man gets out, pulls out his pistol and shoots the donkey.

The wife goes, 'Why did you just shoot the donkey!'.

The husband goes, 'That's once'.

But hey, I'm really glad that you don't know any Muslim husbands who have slapped their wives around. I guess your friends only need to tell their wives to get the dishes washed...just once.

Hey, eh - as I said before, once you start dating you'll have a different perspective.

Thanks for sharing your interpretations though - nice to see that you haven't picked up any new arguments in your absence.

Will you get round to defending the Bible's claim that the earth can stop rotating for a whole day?

Cheers,
Shafique

My interpretation is pretty straight-forward - there is none of this three strike business.

As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

Yell at your wife, then send her to her room and, while there, beat her.

But hey, I'm not really convinced that giving one's wife two free passes to obey her husband before the kiddie gloves come off is really that much better.

And you're right, I guess I don't have the experience that you have under your belt to want to beat someone up for not making you sammiches.

Yes, as we've established many times before - you think your interpretations are correct.

It appears you also seem to think you're funny (and to be fair, sometimes you do indeed make me chuckle).

May I refer you to my previous quotes about Ad Hominem attacks and what they say about your arguments?

Cheers,
Shafique

Man, that must suck for you that you aren't a mod on this subforum anymore (I just noticed this).

The good thing about being overweight, is that you really don't need to have your belt on at all times, including when you lay down the law on your wife for not making you sammiches.

She's just doing it for your health, you could stand to lose a few more stones.

Nice to see you've completely lost the argument, young man.

philosophy-dubai/wife-beating-the-koran-split-from-politics-forum-t41127.html#p336275

Still waiting for a response - where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

What is the 'rare exception' that a man may beat his wife?

You quoted 4.34 in your original post. God states that sequence of punishments - only the last in the sequence is physical punishment. Ergo, one does not have the permission/right to batter one's wife.

shafique wrote:What I read in these clear verses is God's clear instructions as to what is allowed when it comes to physical punishment of a spouse.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Therefore the instructions from God are clear and don't match the spin that 'eh' wants to put on God's teachings.

ooooo welcome back brother, I was expecting a new tolerant transformed young man coming back..Do you think you are now? You know that the ex world order is over, you too must have a new one now..

Shafique wrote:
Nice to see you've completely lost the argument, young man.

ssschhhh brother he is a young lost man you see..He must me preparing himself for his future life and wife to be, so lets help him under the guidance of his true religion from birth to be.. But obviously it would be more insightful if he found a course on islamic studies instead of getting at loggerheads with us all the time...

Still waiting for a response - where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

Your true religion from birth to be not only says you can't beat your wife in anger but even a single being! be it human, animal, plants, trees, material etc etc.

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous - Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men - for God loves those who do good." (Qur'an:3:133-134)

"Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily, to them will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions." (Qur'an:16:97)

"Those who suppress their anger, and forgive other people – assuredly, Allah loves those who do good." (Qur'an 3:134)

Kind words and forgiveness are better than charity followed by injury." (Qur'an:2:261-263)
"If you do judge, judge between them justly. God loves the just." (Our'an: 5:42)

Our Prophet also forbade actions to be done in anger. He said;
-"The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

What is the 'rare exception' that a man may beat his wife?

Those rare exceptions are cases in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases.

How about this two type of women whom you have children with..
The first type: Strong willed, demanding and commandeering women. These are the type of women who like to control, master and run the affairs of their husbands by pushing them around, commanding them and giving them orders.

The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

Mrs. Annie Besant compared Islamic Laws and Western legislation on women's rights and said:

"Islamic Laws are among the best laws known to the world, insofar as woman is concerned. It is the most fair and just legislation. It exceeds the Western legislation concerning real estate, inheritance and divorce laws. It acts as a guardian for women's rights. Phrases such as One Wife is Sufficient for a man, and Polygamy, mystified people and turned them away from the real misery which Western women suffer from and live through. Many husbands left their wives after they got what they wanted from them. In fact such men show no care, concern or mercy for their wives."

So lets see brother if you will be able to judge and judge between them justly!

I see the wife beating supporters are still at it!

Those rare exceptions are cases in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases.

Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!

The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

HOLY F*CK! Sweet Jesus.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

Fascinating...

sniff, sniff - what's that I smell? Could it be a whiff of desperation?

So we have eh dreaming of Danny Devito look-a-likes (makes a change from Afghan boys!) and now FD imagining ecstatic wife beatings as a sign of piety.

What weird interpretations you guys have of a straightforward verse of the Quran!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:FD imagining ecstatic wife beatings as a sign of piety.

How is that? This is where you always get to be the pathetic chubby man you are. You must have confused me with Berrin.

shafique wrote:What weird interpretations you guys have of a straightforward verse of the Quran

Your argument is with Berrin.

It speaks volumes that you make up things about the posters that protest against wife beating, while staying silent when another is advocating wife beating.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!

Hmm, you seem to have a funny way of spelling 'Berrin'.

shafique wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!

Hmm, you seem to have a funny way of spelling 'Berrin'.

Stay off the booze man. Obviously you cannot handle it and makes you look extremely stupid.

Good advice. I wouldn't want to look like this:

Good God..It's just so true that you can not ever get anywhere with anyone who has so much hate against God and its religion.
It too fasinates me how wild they take the interpretation of the verses of the quran and the teachings of our prophet when they don't mean what they think they are! They take it as if it's you're only choice to smash and crash the whole earth on women to save the marriage.. So perheps those who take interest in religion should first go and study human psychology,psychiatry and behavioural science..only than they may understand human nature and establish truth about what God is saying to his pathetic ignorant creatures like yourselves.

Go and get yourselves a life guys if you can never ever know how to talk, ponder and reflect on what is said and written rather than getting histeric and mind blown all the time..

Dear Mods, I would not like to see such human creatures on P&R forums who cannot defend their point of you in silent good manner other than using F&uck and swear words!...For me it's just an interpration of their state as loosing their own arguments!

Berrin wrote:It too fasinates me how wild they take the interpretation of the verses of the quran and the teachings of our prophet when they don't mean what they think they are!

You are arguing with yourself:

Berrin wrote:women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

Berrin wrote:So perheps those who take interest in religion should first go and study human psychology,psychiatry and behavioural science..only than they may understand human nature and establish truth about what God is saying to his pathetic ignorant creatures like yourselves.

Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

FD - are you having a bad day or something?

Your selective quote above is quite telling.



Let's examine what you did:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:
women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

And here is Berrin's quote in context
..

Berrin wrote:The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

So, Berrin gives you a summary of what Holdfield says about 'subdued women' and you wilfully decide to ignore that he's just quoting a psychologist.

I expect eh to resort to such tactics, but you never used to sink to such depths. Is it just an off day?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:FD - are you having a bad day or something?

Your selective quote above is quite telling.



Let's examine what you did:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:
women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

And here is Berrin's quote in context
..

Berrin wrote:The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

So, Berrin gives you a summary of what Holdfield says about 'subdued women' and you wilfully decide to ignore that he's just quoting a psychologist.

I expect eh to resort to such tactics, but you never used to sink to such depths. Is it just an off day?

Cheers,
Shafique

Let the wife beater advocate speak for himself. Defending wife beaters now hey? How low can you go...with you there doesn't seem to be a limit.

double post.
Thank you Shafique..

Flying Dutchman wrote:Let the wife beater advocate speak for himself. Defending wife beaters now hey? How low can you go...with you there doesn't seem to be a limit.

You do realise that name-calling and quoting people out of context shows that you don't really have a leg to stand on.

But just for clarity, are you saying that G A Holdfield beats his wife? I personally am not sure that Holdfield is a man or a woman - are you?

Cheers,
Shafique

It really is mind boggling that, despite claims to contrary, the proponents for wife beating don't understand that their excuses for wife beating *are* understood by its detractors - we (FD and I) are simply floored by the reasoning that there is not much for us to respond to.

Unfortunately, the wife beating proponents actually see this as a sign of 'victory' that because no one here has addressed their current support for wife beating, their argument must be sound.

As I said, the current argument for wife beating and the Koran verse which sanctions it reminds me *exactly* of the joke/story I heard earlier in the thread:

'Once there was a husband and wife who had just bought a new mule. They were walking it down the street when the mule trips over a stone. The husband says, “That's one!”
They walk some more, when the mule trips over a stone again and the husband says, “That's two!”
Then the mule trips over a stone again. The husband says, “That's three,” and shoots the donkey!
The wife gets so mad and start's cursing at the husband and saying, “That was our only donkey! You were an idiot to shoot it!”
The husband says to his wife, that's ONE!”

Not only does this verse in the Koran foster public acceptance in the Muslim world to use violence against women and children, but the implications of this passage torwards women is truly enormous.

Hopefully from reading the above story, one understands that the above is not the *ideal* form of conduct in a marriage. Needless to say, what the Koran instructs men to do and what that story is making fun of/highlighting is *exactly* the same.

To repeat, there is absolutely no difference between the story and the Koran - both the Koran and that husband in that story instill the threat of violence for all married women...everywhere.

The Koran goes above and beyond mere instructions for women to obey their husbands. The Koran gives husbands some tools in ensuring that wives obey them - namely, that a husband is totally allowed to discipline his wife as if she were a child !

Amazingly, yes, amazingly, none of the Muslim posters here have bothered or dared to consider the implications of such a passage. Their knee jerk shrugging off of a passage which calls for physical violence against women truly speaks volumes.

Yawn.

I guess you can't handle Berrin's points. Was his post too long for you?

However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.

So, apart from Danny Devito, Afghan boys and Muslims beating their wives as acts of piety - do you have other fantasies you'd like to share?

But, let's not get away from the fact that this one verse you are misinterpreting is clear to us:

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

All your bluster doesn't change the above. But carry on, it is fun to read.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:you don't really have a leg to stand on.

I donot have a leg to stand on that wife beating is ALWAYS wrong?
You seem to be proud defending wife beating with so called smart arguments.

* shaking head while wife beater advocates are high fiving each other for giving arguments that wife beating is a beautiful thing and that it actually shows love to the wife beaten *

However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.

Ohh shaf, why are u trying so much to say they are alone? Berrin is talking for himself too! he said in other thread that if women show off their pretty eyes, all men would sigh : be mine tonight etc etc!!

Look at below tree:



This is some unviersity in Iran, Basiji guys announced seeing women eating fruits of the tree would make the to want to sleep with them! So they cut off the poor tree like that!!! (I guess Berrin was one of those Basijis too)

your try to manipulate Quran's statements are just funny! Yes God says in Quran that you can beat ur wife if they were not obedient! Enough said!

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok

So Allah allows what you say is not ok?

we are not allowed to beat women in anger.

The Koran says this...where?

3.2.1. change subject.

This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today

Sound logic. Wife beating is endemic in the world - Islam makes it trendy.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out

Right, see the story about the husband, his wife and their mule.

and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen

As long as the threat of violence is there, I would imagine that beating your wife would theoretically be rare too (the wife wouldn't want to be beaten, so she'll be quick to listen to her husband the first time around).

But you're not actually using that as a basis for why this passage in the Koran is good thing, are you?

(I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Their wives are more docile than most women. Too bad.

-- Wed May 12, 2010 7:47 pm --

melika969 wrote:

However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.

Ohh shaf, why are u trying so much to say they are alone? Berrin is talking for himself too! he said in other thread that if women show off their pretty eyes, all men would sigh : be mine tonight etc etc!!

Look at below tree:



This is some unviersity in Iran, Basiji guys announced seeing women eating fruits of the tree would make the to want to sleep with them! So they cut off the poor tree like that!!! (I guess Berrin was one of those Basijis too)

your try to manipulate Quran's statements are just funny! Yes God says in Quran that you can beat ur wife if they were not obedient! Enough said!

But..but... the husbands are to use the threat of violence before they actually beat their wives.

Why can't you see the logic in this?

Eh - as I said, Gods words are quite clear.

The question you didn't answer though eh - what other fantasies do you harbour?

Flying Dutchman wrote:I donot have a leg to stand on that wife beating is ALWAYS wrong?
You seem to be proud defending wife beating with so called smart arguments.

So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Cheers,
Shafique