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The British couple jailed in Dubai for kissing in public have lost their appeal against their conviction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8602449.stm

An Emarati colleague told me today that this decision shows that the judicial system in Dubai is upright and independent. Despite the all the negative publicity this case brought on to Dubai, the judge still dismissed the appeal. If there was any government influence on the judge (to go light on the couple), following the huge negative publicity about the case, he would’ve upheld the appeal and reversed the previous conviction!!!!

Does this really prove the integrity of the judicial process in Dubai???

When a judge denies witnesses for the defense and rules against the defendent in abscence of any witnesses for the accusation it is a mokery of justice, like it was with Sheikh Issa not guilty court ruling.
In addition, because of the financial support judges in Dubai take their orders now from AbuDhabi which economy relies on oil and not on tourism or foreign investors, therefore could not care less of the international opinion.

So when two local guys kiss each other on the cheeks in greeting, are they going to get arrested too? That would mean 99% of Emiratis would be joining the British couple in jail.

Makes you think.



Knight

capsicum wrote:When a judge denies witnesses for the defense and rules against the defendent in abscence of any witnesses for the accusation it is a mokery of justice, like it was with Sheikh Issa not guilty court ruling.
In addition, because of the financial support judges in Dubai take their orders now from AbuDhabi which economy relies on oil and not on tourism or foreign investors, therefore could not care less of the international opinion.

With or without Abu Dhabi’s support, Dubai will always need tourism. Tourism is an essential revenue component that sustains Dubai’s economy.

I’m sure they care about their image. But perhaps they feel that they cannot be lenient in such cases for domestic reasons, if you know what I mean.

Im guessing this sort of thing doesn't happen often but when it does it causes alot of media attention. . .

Kissing in public is obviously considered a major crime here now.
Almost as bad as selling off plots of land they don't own to fleece foreigners of millions of dollars of investment in projects that will never be built.
What next?
Jailed for looking at the check out girl in Spinneys as you hand her the cash for your groceries?



Knight

The stupidest thing is that it was hear say from a 2 year old child!!!! The mother never actually saw it. In any other country it would be laughed off. Why waste time and resources. Go catch real criminals.

Chocoholic wrote:The stupidest thing is that it was hear say from a 2 year old child!!!! The mother never actually saw it. In any other country it would be laughed off. Why waste time and resources. Go catch real criminals.

Apparently the mother gave two conflicting statements. Minor oversight by the court I guess.

Bora Bora wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:The stupidest thing is that it was hear say from a 2 year old child!!!! The mother never actually saw it. In any other country it would be laughed off. Why waste time and resources. Go catch real criminals.

Apparently the mother gave two conflicting statements. Minor oversight by the court I guess.

Minor oversight?! The woman is a sad, petty, pathetic person who needs to get a life.

You know, Dubai has every right to b conservative if it so wants.

What is distressing is how the ruling was applied:

1) The accuser was not required to come to court

2) Witnesses who would have testified the defendent was not guilty were not allowed to testify.

So if i dont like someone, all I have to do is raise a false com[plaint, without being required to even be cross examined ?

Chocoholic wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:The stupidest thing is that it was hear say from a 2 year old child!!!! The mother never actually saw it. In any other country it would be laughed off. Why waste time and resources. Go catch real criminals.

Apparently the mother gave two conflicting statements. Minor oversight by the court I guess.

Minor oversight?! The woman is a sad, petty, pathetic person who needs to get a life.

See the eyes rolling Chocs?? It was sarcasm.

Chocoholic wrote: Go catch real criminals.

The Keystone Kops here couldn't catch a cold!!!

A mate had his car stolen from outside his apartment and the bloody criminal was driving it around town for 6 MONTHS, getting speeding fines and being totally blatant about it. It took a friend to spot the car parked outside a villa in Barsha to get it back. The Feds couldn't have given a toss about it, no matter how many hours my mate spent at the Kop Shop. It was a farce from start to finish!

The couple admitted consuming alcohol, but only kissing on the cheek in greeting. They were spotted in a restaurant that serves alcohol in JBR! Er, excuse me, what was the local woman who complained doing in there...with her kids?????

Acquittal on circumstantial evidence immediately!



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:

Chocoholic wrote: Go catch real criminals.

The Keystone Kops here couldn't catch a cold!!!

A mate had his car stolen from outside his apartment and the bloody criminal was driving it around town for 6 MONTHS, getting speeding fines and being totally blatant about it. It took a friend to spot the car parked outside a villa in Barsha to get it back. The Feds couldn't have given a toss about it, no matter how many hours my mate spent at the Kop Shop. It was a farce from start to finish!

The couple admitted consuming alcohol, but only kissing on the cheek in greeting. They were spotted in a restaurant that serves alcohol in JBR! Er, excuse me, what was the local woman who complained doing in there...with her kids?????

Acquittal on circumstantial evidence immediately!



Knight

A clarification:

I don’t think it has been established that the couple were consuming alcohol at the same restaurant where they were arrested.

In fact, there are no restaurants at JBR or at the JBR Walk that serve alcohol.

Most likely the couple had drinks before going out to the restaurant, either at home or at one of the pubs in the hotels in the JBR area, like the Sheraton, the Hilton or the newly opened Softiel.

Whatever, the Keystone Kops should’ve not made a big deal out of this case. They could’ve just given the couple a slap on the wrist and warned them not to do it again. They treated this case like it was a real crime when, in actual fact, it was simply no more than a petty infringement of the local laws and/or local customs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1263683/Pregnant-Danielle-Lloyd-embraces-Jamie-OHara-Dubai.html

Clearly not a problem if you are a minor celeb !

Dubai - Hypocrisy at its best

viking-warrior wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1263683/Pregnant-Danielle-Lloyd-embraces-Jamie-OHara-Dubai.html

Clearly not a problem if you are a minor celeb !

Dubai - Hypocrisy at its best

I wonder what sort of problem she would have if the baby came early and she had to be admitted to hospital here for the birth?????

sage & onion wrote:

viking-warrior wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1263683/Pregnant-Danielle-Lloyd-embraces-Jamie-OHara-Dubai.html

Clearly not a problem if you are a minor celeb !

Dubai - Hypocrisy at its best

I wonder what sort of problem she would have if the baby came early and she had to be admitted to hospital here for the birth?????

Probably no problems. Would have had the kid and then ushered out.

But lets be honest: double standards rule in all aspects of life. Especially when it comes to nationality. We have all witnessed it....outright racism at times.
If they really wanted to stop this stuff they should head out to numerous sleazy locations around town that are frequented by expats and locals. They would have a field day. But that is really not the issue here is it?
This is all about one local snitch who was determined to F*** somebody over. What was that kid doing in a restaurant at that time anyway???

The sleazy locations around town are one of the cities biggest money spinners as they attract the bucks from the other GCC states who can't get what they crave back home. Its supply and demand.

It also depends on who owns them and who sponsors the 'workers' who service them...



Knight

My middle-aged, well educated Emarati friend and I talked again today about this case. He reads this forum, and he looked at all the comments. His point of view, which I partially agree with, has some validity. Here it is for what it’s worth.

The following are not his words. I’m just summarizing his opinion below (with his permission):

“Yes, our laws may be viewed by Westerners as being archaic and too old-fashioned. Yes, there are favoritism and double standards in applying these laws. Yes, our police should not always handle such cases by the book, and should give consideration to the cultural background of the people involved. Yes, our courts should be lenient with people who commit such harmless offences out of innocent ignorance.

But, that’s the ways it is at the moment, although I’m sure there will be improvement in the future, in the way we handle cases of this sort.

Our police do not raid restaurants and check who’s been drinking and who’s not. Our police do not go around knocking on people’s homes to verify if the man and the woman living there are indeed married. Our police do not patrol public places hoping to grab couples kissing or holding hands. We don’t have religious police patrolling the streets, like those in some neighboring countries.

The police here don’t care what a man and a woman do as long as they don’t get reported by someone, or get involved in an incident that requires the presence of the police, or get caught doing something way out of line -- like that famous beach couple of two years ago.

Now… to avoid getting in trouble, the residents and tourists need to do two simple things:

- Educate themselves about the local laws and customs before, or just after, coming here.
- Avoid doing anything improper that might bring the attention of others, who might, in turn, report them to the police -- especially when they’ve been drinking.

Yes our laws suck (in the eyes of Westerners), but, for the time being, they’ve got to adapt and learn how to live with these laws. We also have got to try to improve the way we handle minor cases arising from innocent cultural ignorance."

Tom, your friend sounds quite reasonable and understanding and I have to say that his views are all taken onboard and understood, however his opinion is not the issue ...

There exists a basic flaw that remains unaddressed and is perfectly highlighted by the "Kissing Couple" case, yet applies equally to cases of commercial dispute, "alleged" breach of trust, etc etc et al ad infinitum .... (see the local press each and every day for at least one example ...)

It takes only an unsubstantiated ALLEGATION of wrongdoing by a lokal for the Police to take action. in this day and age of enlightenment and international dependencies are we expected to always err on the side of the Emirati lokal or the muslim because they do not lie (!!!! Yup uhumm ...... !!!!) (Please don't ask for examples, see the Dubai World thread for that)

Nothwithstanding the fact that the witness was 2 years old at 02:00 am in a public eatery.

Anyway, back on point, is your friend saying that westerners should join in the melee and start accusing all and sundry at the drop of a hat, or continue to exercise discretion and put it down to experience ? Because as far as I can surmise that is where a lot of this nonsense stems from, stupid finger pointing. Thats the rule of the lowest common denominator and this will NOT serve Dubai going forward.

That general rule and use of Wasta has to stop - a bit like car registation (there is no grey area ) - if you cannot (a) provide a clear statement (b) corroborating evidence (c) independent witnesses (d) are prepared to go to court (e) be cross examined by the accused or their legal counsel, then there should be no charge to answer.

A 2 year old witness is not generally accepted as being (a) capable of making reasoned observations (b) understanding the concepts of bigger rights and wrongs (c) crapping anywhere but their nappies, except in Dubai where that is enough to put a young couple in jail and tagged for life with the stigma of deportation on their records.

My humble apologies, but all Emiratis should hang there collective heads in shame - but from over 30 years experience of that place I can inform you with no reservation; that is never going to happen.

---
I write this primarily addressed at your friend, in the hope that there might be a flicker of recognition at some of the above

Tom Jones wrote:
Now… to avoid getting in trouble, the residents and tourists need to do two simple things:

- Educate themselves about the local laws and customs before, or just after, coming here.
- Avoid doing anything improper that might bring the attention of others, who might, in turn, report them to the police -- especially when they’ve been drinking.

Yes our laws suck (in the eyes of Westerners), but, for the time being, they’ve got to adapt and learn how to live with these laws. We also have got to try to improve the way we handle minor cases arising from innocent cultural ignorance."

You forgot something even more simple:
-Avoid travelling to Dubai

viking-warrior wrote:Tom, your friend sounds quite reasonable and understanding and I have to say that his views are all taken onboard and understood, however his opinion is not the issue ...

There exists a basic flaw that remains unaddressed and is perfectly highlighted by the "Kissing Couple" case, yet applies equally to cases of commercial dispute, "alleged" breach of trust, etc etc et al ad infinitum .... (see the local press each and every day for at least one example ...)

It takes only an unsubstantiated ALLEGATION of wrongdoing by a lokal for the Police to take action. in this day and age of enlightenment and international dependencies are we expected to always err on the side of the Emirati lokal or the muslim because they do not lie (!!!! Yup uhumm ...... !!!!) (Please don't ask for examples, see the Dubai World thread for that)

Nothwithstanding the fact that the witness was 2 years old at 02:00 am in a public eatery.

Anyway, back on point, is your friend saying that westerners should join in the melee and start accusing all and sundry at the drop of a hat, or continue to exercise discretion and put it down to experience ? Because as far as I can surmise that is where a lot of this nonsense stems from, stupid finger pointing. Thats the rule of the lowest common denominator and this will NOT serve Dubai going forward.

That general rule and use of Wasta has to stop - a bit like car registation (there is no grey area ) - if you cannot (a) provide a clear statement (b) corroborating evidence (c) independent witnesses (d) are prepared to go to court (e) be cross examined by the accused or their legal counsel, then there should be no charge to answer.

A 2 year old witness is not generally accepted as being (a) capable of making reasoned observations (b) understanding the concepts of bigger rights and wrongs (c) crapping anywhere but their nappies, except in Dubai where that is enough to put a young couple in jail and tagged for life with the stigma of deportation on their records.

My humble apologies, but all Emiratis should hang there collective heads in shame - but from over 30 years experience of that place I can inform you with no reservation; that is never going to happen.

---
I write this primarily addressed at your friend, in the hope that there might be a flicker of recognition at some of the above

VW,

You raised very good and valid points.

But you also have to keep something else in mind. Many of the cops on the beat who are dispatched to the scene are not Emiratis themselves. When an Emirati person is involved at the scene, they tend to appease the Emirati person for fear that Emarati person might complain about them to headquarters. They naturally do not want to risk losing their jobs. Likewise, many (if not most) of the court judges are not local either. These judges tend to be tough by applying the laws to the letter for fear of being accused of weakness or incompetence.

This country is still evolving and learning. They’re growing too, too fast and making a lot of mistakes along the way. What happened to Dubai financially is the biggest and shiniest example of such mistakes.

We happen to here to watch this evolution process in its infancy with all its blunders and fumbles.

Dubai clearly needs to slow down and not bite more than it can chew. And I think it is finally coming to this realization after the recent devastating setback resulting from the debt crisis.

I am not excusing the bad things done by the police or the courts. Not at all. I’m only trying to understand the reasons why some of these things are happeneing.

capsicum wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:
Now… to avoid getting in trouble, the residents and tourists need to do two simple things:

- Educate themselves about the local laws and customs before, or just after, coming here.
- Avoid doing anything improper that might bring the attention of others, who might, in turn, report them to the police -- especially when they’ve been drinking.

Yes our laws suck (in the eyes of Westerners), but, for the time being, they’ve got to adapt and learn how to live with these laws. We also have got to try to improve the way we handle minor cases arising from innocent cultural ignorance."

You forgot something even more simple:
-Avoid travelling to Dubai

^

Many a wise word!

Tom Jones wrote:

viking-warrior wrote:
But you also have to keep something else in mind. Many of the cops on the beat who are dispatched to the scene are not Emiratis themselves. When an Emirati person is involved at the scene, they tend to appease the Emirati person for fear that Emarati person might complain about them to headquarters. They naturally do not want to risk losing their jobs. Likewise, many (if not most) of the court judges are not local either. These judges tend to be tough by applying the laws to the letter for fear of being accused of weakness or incompetence.

So isnt that a fundamental flaw in the legal system?

i.e. If police and judges decide things based on "who" is reporting, .

I think most police are very fair, but if what you say is true then its symptoms of a much wider problem...

BlackburnRovers wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:

viking-warrior wrote:
But you also have to keep something else in mind. Many of the cops on the beat who are dispatched to the scene are not Emiratis themselves. When an Emirati person is involved at the scene, they tend to appease the Emirati person for fear that Emarati person might complain about them to headquarters. They naturally do not want to risk losing their jobs. Likewise, many (if not most) of the court judges are not local either. These judges tend to be tough by applying the laws to the letter for fear of being accused of weakness or incompetence.

So isnt that a fundamental flaw in the legal system?

i.e. If police and judges decide things based on "who" is reporting, .

I think most police are very fair, but if what you say is true then its symptoms of a much wider problem...

You right, most of the Emirati police are very fair, even the non-Emirati officers. I said there is a tendency to favor Emirati nationals which may happen in certain cases where the officer cannot decide who’s right and who’s wrong for lack of evidence (pictures, witnesses, etc.) The problem is even worse when the foreigner cannot speak Arabic which put him at a disadvantage, for not being able to explain and persuade the officer of his claim.

But overall, I don't see it as an alarming common practice (a wider prrblem, as you said), but I was only trying to explain why it might happen in certain cases as those cases that get a lot of press. The good, normal cases (which are the majority) don't get any press.

Some valid points are made, however, the biggest problem is the hypocrisy and blatant picking on certain nationalities. And it should be one rule for all, not changing depending where you come from.

Issues like this just make Dubai a complete laughing stock in the international media and to outsiders looking in.The laws are confusing at best. And if the couple were just giving each other a greeting kiss on the cheeks, then there's something very wrong with that. Every single person I know greets their friends in this manner - all nationalities, men and women. So it makes no sense whatsoever.

Some people are just selfish and the Emirati women was just being petty. She could have just gone over and had a quiet word - but no she decided to destroy two peoples lives instead! Who does that?! Plus what was she doing out with young children at 2am!!! Can I report her for being a bad mother?

Situations like this only serve to widen the differences between people, instead of bringing them together. Now there is such a bad feeling over the whole thing, I pretty much guarantee you that locals and expats alike will jus be gunning for each other.

spot on Chocs

Naa sounds more like a case of victimization. This story makes no sense and one is obliged to doubt it veracity. There's definitely more to it than is being reported.

Chocoholic wrote:Some valid points are made, however, the biggest problem is the hypocrisy and blatant picking on certain nationalities. And it should be one rule for all, not changing depending where you come from.

Issues like this just make Dubai a complete laughing stock in the international media and to outsiders looking in.The laws are confusing at best. And if the couple were just giving each other a greeting kiss on the cheeks, then there's something very wrong with that. Every single person I know greets their friends in this manner - all nationalities, men and women. So it makes no sense whatsoever.

Some people are just selfish and the Emirati women was just being petty. She could have just gone over and had a quiet word - but no she decided to destroy two peoples lives instead! Who does that?! Plus what was she doing out with young children at 2am!!! Can I report her for being a bad mother?

Situations like this only serve to widen the differences between people, instead of bringing them together. Now there is such a bad feeling over the whole thing, I pretty much guarantee you that locals and expats alike will jus be gunning for each other.

Chocs,

I think you are wrong on one point.

I don’t think the Dubai Police deliberately targets (or picks on) certain nationalities.

That’s just too hard to believe.

By your statement, I assume that you primarily mean the British, due to this case and the other cases we heard about in the past.

However, I can think of only 4-5 publicized cases where the Brits were arrested in the past 2 years or so. That’s nothing compared to the number of arrests made by the Dubai Police in the past 2 years (that number is probably in the thousands).

Practically all nationalities get arrested all the time, including the locals, but we often never hear about those arrests.

The Brits get a lot of publicity because of their sensationally-oriented tabloids which, as we know, thrive on such stories.

I’m still glad that those cases involving Brits get a lot of publicity. I wish all questionable arrests get the same exposure, regardless of nationality.