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shafique wrote:
(Cue Tali-tubby with his 'but Muslims should beat their wives because that is what I believe God says' mantra)

Unfortunately, the only way to end society's tolerance for wife beating in the Muslim world is to denounce the passages which a) allow wives to be abused and b) the passages which treat women as inferiors (women are dirty, women are of lesser intelligence and the testimony of one man is equal to two women, etc).

As for statutory rape, Muslims will have to reject/denounce both the hadith and the Koran which allows for dirty old men who look good in purple to take advantage of little girls.

Berrin wrote:TJ, I have a lawyer friend who is divorced with a male child of 14 years old. And says that she sees tendencies in him to be a great womanizer as already quite a few women (children ladies) hanging around him unavoidable..
(This boy is flamboyant, intelligent, reads a lot hence a mind of his own, internet wizard, in a nut shell exposed to so many stimulant to mature him earlier than one would expect, another words he is the child of a modern era, deprived of nothing and has everthing)
Being the muslim she is, doesn't like adultery (divorced her husband) or being reported of teenage pregnancy or the news of s.exually transmitted disease of her boy..
So she is seriously considering to marry him as early as he wants to the one he loves most, even after he graduates from high school. She is well prepared to accomodate both her son and his bride in her house until they both graduate from university and gain their economic freedom.

She says this way at least both her and her sons mind can rest in peace.. and that, early but at least officially legal couples take care of eachother under the supervision of parents until when the time is right to leave.

What do you say to that?

shafique wrote:I read the article when it was published and was actually encouraged at the higher profile that Muslim women protests were now gaining in the press.

The tragedy of battered women justifying the violence against them is a problem where-ever it happens. It's unfortunately universal - a sort of Stockholm syndrome.

This has been observed in societies where there is a high level of violence against women - from South Africa (where women agree to s.ex without condoms when the prevalence of HIV is so high - just because the men don't want condoms - condoms are available everywhere for free, but boxes of them just sit there.. and the rates of rape are horrendous) - to New Zealand Maori communities where the violence is extremely brutal.

The stats for abuse against women in Europe are pretty eye-opening too - with 1 in 5 women having suffered violence.

In all there is a signficant number/proportion who choose to excuse the violence - for reasons that transcend race, religion and cultures. Some women put up with abuse - and the more that society in general and women in particular speak out and educate/demonstrate that all violence is immoral, unlawful and against man's and God's laws - the better.

(Cue Tali-tubby with his 'but Muslims should beat their wives because that is what I believe God says' mantra)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:It's sad when religion is used to justify domestic violence and statutory rape.

Unfortunately, the only way to end society's tolerance for wife beating in the Muslim world is to denounce the passages which a) allow wives to be abused and b) the passages which treat women as inferiors (women are dirty, women are of lesser intelligence and the testimony of one man is equal to two women, etc).

As for statutory rape, Muslims will have to reject/denounce both the hadith and the Koran which allows for dirty old men who look good in purple to take advantage of little girls.

Marrying off a 14-yr old kid!!!??
That’s absolutely dumb!
The kid is barely out of diapers, no matter how smart he is.

She shouldn’t worry about it too much. If the kid is as smart and as worldly you say, he would know better not to get STD and not to get a girl pregnant!

Tom Jones wrote:
The Moslems denouncing the the Quran and the Hadith!!!??

You know darn well that will never happen.

Tom Jones wrote:Shafique,

I love how you always try to brush off those serious problems in Moslem societies as being prevalent in other societies. This attitude of “we have problems, so what, others have them too” is not conducive to tackling the problems and finding the right solutions.

Berrin wrote:

Marrying off a 14-yr old kid!!!??
That’s absolutely dumb!
The kid is barely out of diapers, no matter how smart he is.

The Marquis de Lafayette, comissioned Major General at age 19 in 1777.
Imagine what he was at 14!

She shouldn’t worry about it too much. If the kid is as smart and as worldly you say, he would know better not to get STD and not to get a girl pregnant!

Sorry but welcome to the general attitude of a christian, or should have I said secular attitude of a christian...You know that there are fundamental differences between secularism and islam...So it's pointless to raise such issues.. Plus why the child should get used to adultery when there are millions of secular christian women and men divorcing their partners due to adultery in non-muslim world.

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:
The Moslems denouncing the the Quran and the Hadith!!!??

You know darn well that will never happen.

Do you think the protestors aren't Muslim?




Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:Shafique,

I love how you always try to brush off those serious problems in Moslem societies as being prevalent in other societies. This attitude of “we have problems, so what, others have them too” is not conducive to tackling the problems and finding the right solutions.

You misunderstand me - I'm certainly not brushing off the problems - just highlighting how widespread it is and trying to point out that abused women condoning their abusers is not a cultural or religious problem.

The blame lies squarely on the cowardly men that raise their hands against women in anger, and I don't for a minute excuse any instance at all. I'm squarely behind the women protesting and I am not alone in denouncing some medieval misinterpretations of Islam, or any other excuse used to beat up or oppress women.

The solutions for Maori women (for example) are pretty much the same for any Arab women facing abuse. Its empowerment of the women - so they know their rights and exercise them - AND it's tackling the problems of the men who think it is ok and get away with it.


The tragedy is that a religion that actually gave women rights unheard of before is being tarnished by loutish 'Muslims'. However, a large part of the problem are the tali-tubbies who equate cultural misogyny with the religion the louts aren't following. By extension then, the 1 in 5 women being battered in Europe are doing so because of the Bible's misogynistic passages. However, no Muslim makes that ridiculous claim - but rather focuses on the fact women are being battered around the world and trying to find solutions for this.


Another aspect that shouldn't be overlooked is that rates of violence against women by men who've seen combat is also a problem. It is also an issue with men who are emasculated when they are under siege or oppressed generally. They take out their frustrations against the women within punching distance. Throw in alcohol and the problems get worse.

So, far from condoning or excusing the problems - I'm just emphasing that the women and other Muslims protesting have my full support and that the violence has nothing to do with Islam.

cheers,
Shafique

Is it because those women feel that it’s a God-given right for a Muslim man to beat his wife, or is there another cultural angle to this peculiar mind-set by women????

Tom Jones wrote:My shock stems from knowing that the majority of women in Egypt see nothing wrong in a man beating his wife for speaking to another man. Just like the women in Yemen who support child marriage.

Aren’t you troubled by that?? Especially when they are all Muslims??

Tom Jones wrote:What’s happening to the world when most women accept wife beating as a normal behavior??? And please don't mention the “Stockholm Syndrome”. It’s not applicable here.

Tom Jones wrote:Is it because those women feel that it’s a God-given right for a Muslim man to beat his wife, or is there another cultural angle to this peculiar mind-set by women????

Gender-based violence also serves – by intention or effect – to perpetuate male power and control. It is sustained by a culture of silence and denial of the seriousness of the health consequences of abuse. In addition to the harm they exact on the individual level, these consequences also exact a social toll and place a heavy and unnecessary burden on health services.

UNFPA recognizes that violence against women is inextricably linked to gender-based inequalities. When women and girls are expected to be generally subservient, their behaviour in relation to their health, including reproductive health, is negatively affected at all stages of the life cycle.

UNFPA puts every effort into breaking the silence and ensuring that the voices of women are heard. At the same time, the Fund works to change the paradigm of masculinity that allows for the resolution of conflict through violence. One strategy is to engage men - policy makers, parents and young boys — in discourse about the dynamics and consequences of violence.

Tom Jones wrote:I still believe that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the fact that the majority of Egyptian women find it acceptable for men to beat their wives. These women probably consider that such beatings as having been ordained or sanctioned by Allah (as decreed in the Quran). As such, they naturally feel that they have to accept the beatings with no questions asked.

Am I not wrong!!!!!?????

Tom Jones wrote:I still believe that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the fact that the majority of Egyptian women find it acceptable for men to beat their wives.

I still believe that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the fact that the majority of Egyptian women find it acceptable for men to beat their wives. These women probably consider that such beatings as having been ordained or sanctioned by Allah (as decreed in the Quran). As such, they naturally feel that they have to accept the beatings with no questions asked.

The Spread of a World Creed
Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers despite hostile media coverage.

Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches.

The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country. “Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here”, says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: “Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own”. Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America.

The surge in conversions to Islam has taken place despite the negative image of the faith in the Western press. Indeed, the pace of conversions has accelerated since publicity over the Salman Rushdie affair, the Gulf War and the plight of the Muslims in Bosnia. It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million. Many of Britains “New Muslims” are from middle-class backgrounds. They include Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton who went on to Cambridge, and a son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott, the judge heading the arms-to-Iraq enquiry.

A small scale survey by the Islamic Foundation in Leicester suggests that most converts are aged 30 to 50. Younger Muslims point to many conversions among students and highlight the intellectual thrust of Islam. “Muhammad” said, “The light of Islam will rise in the West”[1] and I think that is what is happening in our day” says Aliya Haeri, an American-born psychologist who converted 15 years ago. She is a consultant to the Zahra Trust, a charity publishing spiritual literature and is one of Britain’s prominent Islamic speakers. She adds: “Western converts are coming to Islam with fresh eyes, without all the habits of the East, avoiding much of what is culturally wrong. The purest tradition is finding itself strongest in the West.”

Some say the conversions are prompted by the rise of comparative religious education. The British media, offering what Muslims describe as a relentless bad press on all things Islamic, is also said to have helped. Westerners despairing of their own society - rising in crime, family breakdown, drugs and alcoholism - have come to admire the discipline and security of Islam. Many converts are former Christians disillusioned by the uncertainty of the church and unhappy with the concept of the Trinity and deification of Jesus.

Quest of the Convert - Why Change?
Other converts describe a search for a religious identity. Many had previously been practising Christians but found intellectual satisfaction in Islam. “I was a theology student and it was the academic argument that led to my conversion.” Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher and author, said she objected to the concept of the original sin: “Under Islam, the sins of the fathers aren’t visited on the sons. The idea that God is not always forgiving is blasphemous to Muslims.

Maimuna, 39, was raised as a High Anglican and confirmed at 15 at the peak of her religious devotion. “I was entranced by the ritual of the High Church and thought about taking the veil.” Her crisis came when a prayer was not answered. She slammed the door on visiting vicars but travelled to convents for discussions with nuns. “My belief came back stronger, but not for the Church, the institution or the dogma.” She researched every Christian denomination, plus Judaism, Buddhism and Krishna Consciousness, before turning to Islam.

Many converts from Christianity reject the ecclesiastical heirarchy emphasising Muslims’ direct relationship with God. They sense a lack of leadership in the Church of England and are suspicious of its apparent flexibility. “Muslims don’t keep shifting their goal-posts ,” says Huda Khattab, 28, author of The Muslim Woman’s Handbook, published this year by Ta-Ha. She converted ten years ago while studying Arabic at university. “Christianity changes, like the way some have said pre-marital sex is okay if its with the person you’re going to marry. It seems so wishy-washy. Islam was constant about sex, about praying five times a day. The prayer makes you conscious of God all the time. You’re continually touching base.

The Times - Tuesday, 9th November 1993 - Home-news Page

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:I still believe that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the fact that the majority of Egyptian women find it acceptable for men to beat their wives.

The Muslims who beat their wives do it despite what Islam teaches.

The Coptic Egyptians who beat their wives, also do it despite what Christianity teaches. Coptic Christianity pre-dates Islam. Copts also practice female circumcission (or 'Female Genital Mutilation') - whereas outside of Africa this practice is rarely part of Muslim practice.

So, unless you are going to argue that the non-Muslim Egyptian women are influenced by the Quran, then I would have to say 'yes you are wrong - it is cultural and not religious'.

Any belief that can be tested by empirical evidence - should be tested. But then that's just my belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote: No sirree bob.

Tom Jones wrote:Again there seems to be a misunderstanding. You have to read my statement carefully.

Tom Jones wrote:I said: I believe (as in: I think) that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the survey finding that the majority of Egyptian women consider wife beating acceptable. The phrase “have something to do with” merely means that I believe there is a connection between the two. It does not necessarily mean that the Quranic teachings are the main or the only reason for such an astonishing result. There could be other factors, I don’t know!

Tom Jones wrote:In any case, I’m sure most Moslem women undoubtedly want to be good Moslems and obey what the Quran says. If the Quran allows a man to beat up his wife when she’s bad, I imagine these women would feel that it’s their duty to obey what the Quran says. What’s wrong with this thinking???

Tom Jones wrote:Two other points briefly:

I know that good and stable Muslim men would not beat up their wives, no matter what, but that’s really not the point of our discussion.

And as to the Coptic women….Even if you remove them statistically from the survey, the remaining vast majority would still be Muslim women, which would not significantly alter the results.

shafique wrote:

Tom Jones wrote:Again there seems to be a misunderstanding. You have to read my statement carefully.

Ok

Tom Jones wrote:I said: I believe (as in: I think) that the Quranic teachings have something to do with the survey finding that the majority of Egyptian women consider wife beating acceptable. The phrase “have something to do with” merely means that I believe there is a connection between the two. It does not necessarily mean that the Quranic teachings are the main or the only reason for such an astonishing result. There could be other factors, I don’t know!

That is how I understood what you wrote as well. Therefore - you got your message across.

I disagreed with this 'belief/thought' though, because I believe/think it has more to do with cultural issues which also manifest itself in Egyptian women who do not follow the Quran - viz. Coptic Christian women.

I do think that some Muslims may use selected verses to justify to themselves why they oppress women - but whether the women stay silent because they think that is what God wants them to do it has yet to be shown to me. If anything, the protests of women in the first post indicates that its more a question of emphasising the liberating aspects of Islam towards women that were meant to overturn the cultural misogyny.

Tom Jones wrote:In any case, I’m sure most Moslem women undoubtedly want to be good Moslems and obey what the Quran says. If the Quran allows a man to beat up his wife when she’s bad, I imagine these women would feel that it’s their duty to obey what the Quran says. What’s wrong with this thinking???

I think it is a totally valid hypothesis. Nothing wrong in thinking this could be a cause.

Tom Jones wrote:Two other points briefly:

I know that good and stable Muslim men would not beat up their wives, no matter what, but that’s really not the point of our discussion.

And as to the Coptic women….Even if you remove them statistically from the survey, the remaining vast majority would still be Muslim women, which would not significantly alter the results.

Ah, but the alternative hypothesis would be that the causal factor is not religion of the women, but their Culture (Egyptian culture).

There's a difference between correlation and causality. It can be shown that in the US and Europe there are more motor accidents in months when sales of woolen jumpers increases (this is a fact). The sales of wooly jumpers is correlated to motor accidents - statistically proven. However, reducing the sales of woolen jumpers won't cause motor accidents to reduce - because the underlying causal factor is the weather (there are more accidents and sales in winter!).

Cheers,
Shafique