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Well, given your active imagination - it could mean all manner of things. However, to show that God allows s.ex outside of marriage or condones adultery, you'd have to look at what God says about adultery and s.ex outside of marriage.

Simple logic really.

All Mouth, No Trousers - again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh, and what does the Koran say about exposing yourself to others ? Or keeping yourself chaste?

Just wondering.

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.

But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]

It's actually funny that you ask me to consult the 'modern' view of Islam vis-a-vis Hans Kung.

Interesting what he says about Islam and concubinage on p 188:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6387447/Islam ... and-Future

(It's also interesting for Kung to point out that the Koran does not limit the number of wives a husband may take - only pointing out that the Koran says a husband may take four wives if it pleases him).

Secondly, the Qur'anic passage does not impose a limitation. Translated literally, it says: 'Marry what women please you, two, three and four.' The regulation that a Muslim may only have four wives legal wives (plus an unlimited number of slave-girls as concubines) would then be a later ruling by Muslim jurists.

I've already said that in later Muslim jurisdictions Harems and concubines were indeed enjoyed by 'Muslim' rulers. Notably the Mughals - who also justified drinking alcohol and other hedonistic practices. Some of the rulers were more religious than others, but as with all scripture - we have examples of those who misinterpret. Take your Christian terrorist group - the LRA - they kidnap and rape young girls, and enslave them. You condone this action when Israelites do it - as described in the Bible, and you consider the LRA to be Christian.

However, the point is that God does not say that adultery is not a sin. Kung does not say that Islam allows adultery either.

On the contrary on pg155 Kung states:

By contrast, the Quran decisively affirms the institutions of marriage and family.

and in pg 156

Se.xual intercourse outside of marriage is not allowed.

And then he goes on to explain the concept of polygamy in Islam.

But I'm glad you're reading the book - perhaps you'll be able to quote Kung's conclusions about whether the God fo Islam is any different from the God Jesus prayed to.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nice selective quoting. In the same sentence (or next one) Kung clarifies what he says by explaining that Muslims cannot have relations outside of marriage with the exception of having relations with their slave girls.

It's also interesting for a modern scholar like Kung explain that the Koran does not actually set limits on the number of wives a Muslim may have (so, I guess Muhammad really did not go against the Koran).

Thank you for recommending that book. Kung is clear that Islam permits concubinage (nowhere did he say or imply this as a later belief) and that the Koran does not limit the number of wives a husband may have - this is a later Muslim view that wormed itself into Muslim theology and remains to this day.

Well, it is a pretty categoric statement by Kung.

Se.xual intercourse outside of marriage is not allowed.

Fundamentally undermines your view that Islam allows adultery.

Cheers,
Shafique

Actually, it isn't. If you continued the quote, Kung clearly says the exception to this is that Muslim may have an unlimited number of slave-girls:

Se.xual intercourse outside marriage is not allowed. However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6387447/Islam ... and-Future

That's some massive foot-in-mouth pwnage right there.

Oh, and thanks again for linking to Kung's book.

Nope, Kung is pretty categoric:

Se.xual intercourse outside of marriage is not allowed.

Fundamentally undermines your view that Islam allows adultery.


QED

Se.xual intercourse outside marriage is not allowed. However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives.

No, it doesn't. It's just another example of selective quoting on your part.

You say tomato..

The bottom line is you haven't been able to back up your wild assertion that God allows adultery. Better luck next time.

Kung's statement is pretty categorical - s.ex outside marriage - not allowed.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:

Se.xual intercourse outside marriage is not allowed. However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives.

No, it doesn't. It's just another example of selective quoting on your part.

And yes I have backed up my view that Islam allows concubinage with passages from the Koran.

And ignored all the verses where God talks about adultery.

As I said, Kung has hit the nail on the head - s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed.

All Mouth, No Trousers - again.

Yeah, Kung does hit the nail on the head when he says that says "However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives."

Wow. I've heard some winky-dink arguments and desperate attempts of obfuscation before from you (such as claiming you never said something that you repeatedly said on the previous two pages of a thread), but I think this takes the cake.

You said God allows adultery, and yet don't quote any verse about adultery.

Kung says s.ex outside marriage is not allowed.

All Mouth, No Trousers - again.

Kung says that concubinage is allowed in Islam. (funny that you're now referring to passages from the Koran but won't quote any passage from the Koran on the other thread, why is that?)

God says adultery is not allowed. Kung says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed.

'eh' says God allows s.ex outside of marriage.

Hmm. Am I missing something?

Cheers,
Shafique

Allah says that concubinage is allowed. I'm going to have to agree with allah, unless you are saying that he is a liar.

shafique wrote:God says adultery is not allowed. Kung says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed.

'eh' says God allows s.ex outside of marriage.

Hmm. Am I missing something?

Nope, not missing anything - God is quite clear, Kung is just as clear. You are the one that seems confused - nothing new here.

Cheers,
Shafique

Indeed, why don't you quote Kung in full to see what he has to say about concubinage in Islam ???

God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed, as does Kung.

It is only you that says otherwise - and we know you like to think you are right. But then again, you have the most extreme religious views of all the posters here.

Cheers,
Shafique

Uhm, actually Kung said that Muslim men can have an unlimited number of concubines.

Are you claiming that Kung didn't say:

However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives

???

No, I'm quite clear about what I'm saying:

God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. Kung says God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed (he says so explicitly).

'eh' says Islam allows adultery.

Spot the difference?

Cheers,
Shafique

Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

However, men are allowed concubines from the ranks of their slave girls as they wish - and also several wives

God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. Kung says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed.

How many times do I have to repeat these facts?

Try and keep up 'eh'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. Kung says God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. eh dreamt that s.ex outside of marriage is allowed.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

shafique wrote:God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. Kung says God says s.ex outside of marriage is not allowed. eh dreamt that s.ex outside of marriage is allowed.

Still dreaming eh?

event horizon wrote:

event horizon wrote:Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

Simple question....

shafique wrote:Still dreaming eh?

- simple question indeed!

event horizon wrote:

event horizon wrote:

event horizon wrote:Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

Does Kung say that concubinage is allowed in Islam?

Simple question....

Does he?