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event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

Well, I started a thread on your typical tactics, including your claim that I said that it is ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and your belief that I had said that the bulldozing of homes was a false analogy.

I'll await for your to clarify your lies in either this thread or the other one. Perhaps, since you were caught lying twice in one thread, you can clarify one lie in each thread.

It's your choice, do you want to find the quote and post it here where you claim I supported discrimination against Muslims by the state of Israel, or do you want to quote me where I said that bulldozing homes was a 'false analogy'?

For the record, I maintain that I never said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and I never said that bulldozing homes was a false analogy - I *clearly* said on the first page that your comparison to Muslims supposedly not being able to worship at the wailing wall was a false analogy.

But hey, I look forward to you quoting me where I actually said either of the above.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

shafique wrote:Over to you, stop whining and have the courage of your convictions and come out with with whether you condemn Israeli war crimes in the 20th century as well as supporting war crimes in antiquity.

I said I'm glad you started a thread on Quranic war crimes, this means we can contrast it with the Biblical war crimes thread where you justify the massacres of innocents and enslavement of virgins, and even liken these acts to those of angels.

Here, I don't view the instruction that pagans can't worship at the Ka'aba as a war crime, but have pointed out that it would be hypocritical to say that this was a war crime and excuse the latter-day Israeli war crime I've asked your views on above.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 04, 2010

Jews are not even allowed to move their lips on the Temple Mount, since it might resemble praying. :shock:

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

Didn't Sharon move his lips when he visited Temple Mount on September 28, 2000?

Was he breaking the law as well as being provocative? :shock:

Anyway, let's see whether eh answers the questions I posed about whether he condemns the 1967 war crime committed by Israel when they bulldozed homes and evicted Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter in Jerusalem (which they captured in the 1967 war) - and continue to refuse them the right to return to their land/homes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 04, 2010

shafique wrote:Didn't Sharon move his lips when he visited Temple Mount on September 28, 2000?

Was he breaking the law as well as being provocative?

It concerns a recent ruling from a few years ago. Why was it provocative? The Al-Aqsa mosque is a provocation by itself, comparable by dropping herds of living pigs on the Kaaba. If Israel would follow the example set by the Muslim invasion some 1400 years ago, Israel would bulldoze down the Al-Aqsa mosque. But Israel respects other religions, contrary to the heartland of Islam.

Enough about Israel, back to discussing Koranic war crimes, a lot to discuss there.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

Well, Sharon's visit led to an Intefada - pretty provocative by all accounts. So, the Israelis have passed a law that forbids Jewish people from moving their lips on haram-al-sharif? Interesting, I didn't catch that piece of news.

As for the history of Jerusalem, you must have different history books from me - mine says Jews lived in peace under Muslim rule and were quite aggrieved when the Crusaders took Jerusalem (with good reason) and welcomed Salahuddin when he recaptured Jerusalem.

Wasn't it the Romans who destroyed the temple? Perhaps they were acting like angels as well when they did it?

Anyway, let's see what eh has to say about the more recent war crime of 1967 in regards to the bulldozing of the Maghreb quarter and the continuing refusal to give this area back to those who lived there (or their descendants). Clear breach of Geneva conventions to evict people from home after occupying a territory after a war... so let's see what eh's stance is on it.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 04, 2010

event horizon wrote:Well, I started a thread on your typical tactics, including your claim that I said that it is ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and your belief that I had said that the bulldozing of homes was a false analogy.

I'll await for your to clarify your lies in either this thread or the other one. Perhaps, since you were caught lying twice in one thread, you can clarify one lie in each thread.

It's your choice, do you want to find the quote and post it here where you claim I supported discrimination against Muslims by the state of Israel, or do you want to quote me where I said that bulldozing homes was a 'false analogy'?

For the record, I maintain that I never said that it was ok for Israel to discriminate against Muslims and I never said that bulldozing homes was a false analogy - I *clearly* said on the first page that your comparison to Muslims supposedly not being able to worship at the wailing wall was a false analogy.

But hey, I look forward to you quoting me where I actually said either of the above.

shafique · Mar 04, 2010

I guess you didn't register that I don't agree that expelling Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter adjacent to the Western Wall isn't an appropriate analogy to the alleged war crime of preventing Pagans Arabs from worshipping at the Kaaba.

As this is a thread about war crimes, I asked (quite reasonably, I think) whether you acknowledged that Israel committed a war crime when they evicted the residents and bulldozed the homes of those living in the Maghreb quarter after gaining control in the 1967 war? By modern definitions (and by the Geneva conventions) this is a war crime.

This is not 'discrimination' only - but a war crime.

The question was quite simple - do you acknowledge the war crime and if you do, do you condemn it?

(I've already answered your direct question about whether I think the prevention of idolatory in the Kaaba was a war crime - I said I do not)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

I guess you didn't register that I don't agree that expelling Muslims living in the Maghreb quarter adjacent to the Western Wall isn't an appropriate analogy to the alleged war crime of preventing Pagans Arabs from worshipping at the Kaaba.

Too bad that wasn't what you originally said:

no, I don't see the restriction of Pagans from worshipping at the Kaaba to be a war crime. Is it a war crime today that Israel does not allow Muslims to visit the wailing wall? (Or, if they do allow Muslims, would it be a war crime if they refused Arab Palestinians, say, from visiting the wall?)

In any event, I have no idea what you are saying is correct. But your comparison is a false analogy because Muslims have never worshiped at the wailing wall like the Pagan Arabs did before they were prohibited from doing so.

Now, do you join me in condemning the Koran for prohibiting Pagans from using their own house of worship?

(I've already answered your direct question about whether I think the prevention of idolatory in the Kaaba was a war crime - I said I do not)

Would categorically preventing Muslims from worshiping at al-Aqsa mosque and turning it into a Synagogue (where only Jews can worship and step foot inside) be a crime in your mind?

shafique · Mar 05, 2010

I'm not sure how many times you want me to answer your first allegation and how many times you'll avoid answering my simple question.

But let me be clear to avoid confusion.

1. Answer: No, I don't agree with you that preventing idol worship in the Kaaba and returning it to its monotheistic roots is a war crime. I understand you think it is, I just have a different opinion to you.

2. Question: Do you consider Israel's war crime in 1967 when it bulldozed houses adjacent to the Western Wall and expelled the Muslim homeowners, and continue to refuse to let them return, worthy of condemnation - or do you condone it, in the same way you condone the cold blooded massacre of civilians by Israelites of old?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

LoL - you're justifying religious discrimination based on history only (conveniently) found in the Koran. There is no evidence that the Kaaba was built by Abraham. But even if it were, other people of other religions were using it at the time the Muslims took it over - theoretically, Monotheists could have used the Kaaba who weren't Muslims.

But the Koran prohibits Pagans and, well, every one else who isn't a Muslim from using the Kaaba.

But thank you for exposing your religious bigotry.

I see you still have not answered my question though - would you condemn Israel if they were to ban Muslims from entering the Temple Mount and worship at al-Aqsa mosque?

shafique · Mar 05, 2010

Yes, I'm justifying the return to monotheism of the Kaaba. No problems in accepting and clarifying my views of what the Quran says.

Contrast this with your condoning of the slaughter of civilians by Israelites and the enslavement/rape of 32,000 virgins in the Biblical War Crimes thread.

I also note that my question (the clearly labelled one, point 2, the one that says 'question') is still unanswered.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 05, 2010

So, you wouldn't condemn the following hypothetical:

I see you still have not answered my question though - would you condemn Israel if they were to ban Muslims from entering the Temple Mount and worship at al-Aqsa mosque?

shafique · Mar 06, 2010

Why should I condemn Israel for what it hasn't done? Surely there are enough real war crimes for us to condemn?

A better analogy would be if some satan worshippers took over Al Aqsa +mosque+ and then some monotheists came along and restored the worship of one God. There too I would not consider this to be a war crime.

Now, how about my question about Israels ACTUAL war crime?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 06, 2010

A better analogy would be if some satan worshippers took over Al Aqsa +mosque+ and then some monotheists came along and restored the worship of one God. There too I would not consider this to be a war crime.

I don't think that calling Muslims Satan worshipers is not going to get you anywhere on this forum.

But you are correct that violently taking over a house of worship used by people of other religions and forbidding them to worship or step foot inside is wrong, and should be condemned.

Perhaps I was wrong in labeling you a religious bigot?

But, would you condemn Israel if they took over al-Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount and converted these places into Synagogues?

shafique · Mar 06, 2010

Why the obsession with hypotheticals about Israel?

I'm asking you about Israel's actual war crimes. Have you come out and said you condemn the eviction of the Muslims of the Maghreb quarter yet? I didn't think so.

Your silence speaks volumes.

But why don't you answer your own question - if Israel does convert the Al Aqsa mosque - would that be a war crime that you condemn?

If the answer is 'yes' then why is the slaughter of civilians and enslavement of 32,000 virgins not a war crime then?

Cheers,
Shafique

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