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But yet you condemned acts of God, but don't condemn acts of slaughter by Israelites.

How are you different from other religious fanatics that say it is ok to kill civilians in cold blood - as long as God tells them to do it?

You are the ONLY person I've come across here that says it is ok to kill children and enslave/rape virgins - and you even imply that the Israelites are like angels when they do this. Shocking stuff.

Cheers,
Shafique

Is Ibrahim a religious fanatic? He didn't refuse to kill his son when Allah asked him to. In fact, if it wasn't for allah's last minute intervention, Ibrahim would have murdered his son.

As for your post, explain to me the difference between 'God' sending down angels to massacre civilians or ordering the Israelites to wipe out cities.

You are a religious fanatic for condoning the enslavement and rape of 32,000 virgins and the massacre of their families in cold blood.

Religious fanatics excuse cold-blooded massacres by saying 'well the book says God ordered it' or 'God does the same thing, so why should we condemn the Israelites'.

How are you any different from those who glorify suicide bombers? The rest of us condemn all forms of terrorism.

Cheers,
Shafique

Is Ibrahim a religious fanatic for sacrificing his son because Allah told him to? Well, he would have.

As for the Israelites and their victims, again, what is the difference between the Israelites killing people and angels sent by Allah who massacre civilians and wipe out numerous cities?

Why is that such a difficult question to answer? To me, it's all the same.

If Abraham or any other person slaughtered women, babies and men in cold blood like the Israelites did - then he too would be condemned by me and any other person with 'normal' morals.

You are the ONLY one who is condoning cold-blooded massacre and the enslavement/rape of virgins.

Do you think you'll persuade me in joining you in your view that this was a justified massacre?

Cheers,
Shafique

So, when the Israelites were raping the virgins (I'm guessing that 32,000 virgins weren't left 'untouched') were they doing 'God's work' in your mind?

Or when the Israelites were killing the virgins' brothers, fathers, mothers and friends -this was all doing 'God's work'?

You see no difference between this slaughter and the work of Angels sent by God?

Wow.

There is no mention of 'raping' virgins.

You just have a dirty mind.

As for Ibrahim, nice deflection. But was Ibrahim a religious fanatic because he sacrificed his son? I mean, he certainly would have, so let's view it as if he actually had.

To me, if killing foreigners (who you were often in conflict with) because God told you so makes you a religious fanatic, then wouldn't killing your own son make you even more of a religious fanatic?

As for what slaughtering civilians, explain to me the difference between angels massacring civilians and humans doing the job?

It is fascinating that you are equating Israelites massacring civilians and enslaving/raping 32,000 virgins with Angels!

I can't see any difference between you and other religious fanatics that glorify acts of terrorism and think they'll be rewarded for killing civilians.

Cheers,
Shafique

I bet those angels of death Allah unleashed against those innocent civilians thought the same, too.

Was Ibrahim a religious fanatic?

No for no. Yes for yes.

Are you still trying to convince me that cold blooded murder and enslavement/rape of virgins is NOT a war crime, but rather an angelic action?

Wow.

Why would I think Abraham is a war criminal - he didn't slaughter anyone in cold blood or enslave virgins. Had he done so, then yes, I would condemn him for his actions. I would not excuse his actions like you do.

That difference makes you the relgious fanatic.

To me, your refusal to answer this question indicates that you may also be a racist as well as being a relgious fanatic:

Is it only massacres carried out by Jewish people that you support, or do you only condemn massacres carried out by Muslims or Allah?


I mean, you don't condemn Baruch Golstein when he massacres worshippers - and he was a white American born doctor and religious Jew who emigrated to occupied Palestine and mowed down unarmed civilians at a holy site on a Jewish holy day (Purim). You say that Israelites who kill children, their parents and who enslave virgins - are acting like angels.

But, I always try to be fair - and I look forward to your answer to the question and clarification on whether you are a hypocrite or racist on this issue or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

Still avoiding the question I see.

For me, I see a very big (I mean BIG) difference between cold blooded murders of civilians by people and any act of God where civilians are killed.

I would not call the murderers of children and enslavers of virgins as 'angel like' - but religious fanatics do have this justification.

Why are you avoiding the question I posed?

Cheers,
Shafique

Bump:
Still avoiding the question I see.

For me, I see a very big (I mean BIG) difference between cold blooded murders of civilians by people and any act of God where civilians are killed.

I would not call the murderers of children and enslavers of virgins as 'angel like' - but religious fanatics do have this justification.

Why are you avoiding the question I posed?

Cheers,
Shafique

Perhaps the angels who massacred innocent civilians in cold blood were human like?

Better?

Now, do you condemn the angels for massacring/butchering innocent civilians?

shafique wrote:Are you still trying to convince me that cold blooded murder and enslavement/rape of virgins is NOT a war crime, but rather an angelic action?

Wow.

Why would I think Abraham is a war criminal - he didn't slaughter anyone in cold blood or enslave virgins. Had he done so, then yes, I would condemn him for his actions. I would not excuse his actions like you do.

That difference makes you the relgious fanatic.

The question is simple, is Ibrahim a religious fanatic because he would have sacrificed his son?

How can I put this bluntly?

NO I DO NOT CONDONE THE MURDER OF CIVILIANS IN COLD BLOOD - no argument will persuade me in joining you in excusing the crimes of the Israelites nor will I agree they are angelic.

Where is there any record of angels enslaving and raping virgins?

And, no I don't condemn anyone for 'thought crimes' either - just actions - eg. the actual cold blooded massacre of civilians by the Israelites.


This is a bit like animal farm - I can't see any difference between your views about Israelites slaughtering civilians and those who glorify suicide bombers. If anything, your condoning of the enslavement of virgins makes you worse than them.

Cheers,
Shafique

You don't the condemn the murder of innocent civilians who were massacred by angels?

Shame on you.

Where is there any record of angels enslaving and raping virgins?

I'm not aware of a record of raping virgins in the passage you quoted, but the Muslim angels went further than that - they massacred the virgins (it's unknown if these virgins became houris).

This is a bit like animal farm - I can't see any difference between your views about Israelites slaughtering civilians and those who glorify suicide bombers. If anything, your condoning of the enslavement of virgins makes you worse than them.

Condoning the cold-blooded slaughter of innocent virgins makes you 'worse' than the Israelites.

No I don't condemn acts of God - but you do. I see you consider this non-condemnation as shameful. I'll just chalk this down to another 'quaint' belief.

But you don't deny you are just like Al Qaeda and justify the slaughter of civilians by people - just as long as they use the excuse 'god ordered us to do it'.

But you also go beyond Al Qaeda in that you condone the enslavement of 32,000 virgins and their rape (or perhaps you think there is another interpretation of the Biblical commandment to keep the virgins for yourselves..?)

So, I'm to be shamed for NOT condoning acts of God, but you're happy to compare butchering Israelites with angels.

Hmmm.

Shame on who again?

Cheers,
Shafique

How were the actions of the Israelis *not* acts of God? God commanded warfare and the Israelis followed through. 'God' commands his followers to wipe out cities in the Koran, and his followers follow through with it.

Hey, if it looks like a duck, quacks like and swims like a duck, it's a duck.

The difference is that non-fanatics will denounce cold-blooded acts of murder and enslavement and rapes.

Another difference is that I'm unaware of any act of God where virgins are spared and then kept for the use of those who killed the families of the virgins.

But the biggest difference is that I condemn the massacre by Israelite and you excuse them - comparing the Israelites to angels.

You are therefore more extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden.

Cheers,
Shafique

The difference is that non-fanatics will denounce cold-blooded acts of murder and enslavement and rapes.

Ok - do you denounce the cold-blooded acts of murder as recorded in the Koran? Or are you saying that you're a fanatic?

But the biggest difference is that I condemn the massacre by Israelite and you excuse them - comparing the Israelites to angels.

Hey, I'm of the opinion that the person who ordered something should receive most of the blame/condemnation if what they ordered was unjust/wrong.

I mean, that seems logical to me. So, do you condemn 'God' for ordering his followers to slay the peace-loving inhabitants of cities, as recorded in the Koran?

Interesting tactic - you are desperate for me to join you in condoning acts of massacres and enslavement by Israelites.

And yet you think I'M the one who is a religious fanatic?

So, in summary eh condones the war crime and uses the excuse that 'god told them to do it'

Therefore he is no different from other religous fanatics who justify the cold blooded killing of civilians by men who use god as an excuse. He goes further by also condoning the enslavement of virgins (as opposed to imagined virgins in heaven)

I totally condemn the atrocities Allah ordered in the Koran and that his followers carried out.

Do you join me in condemning the slaughter of innocent civilians murdered by Allah's intermediaries?

I have a hard time imagining that you really believe in that quote from Tony Benn that compares an errant American rocket to a suicide bomber who deliberately explodes himself in a crowd of civilians.

Or perhaps you do, you just don't agree with it in all scenarios.

I totally condemn the atrocities Allah ordered in the Koran and that his followers carried out.

Eh do you also condemn God when he sends angel Azrael to take the spirits of people away when its their turn to departure from earth?... Do you also condemn God that he takes the life off of a baby in his mothers womb or maybe just shortly after he was born, or else when he is a perfectly healty child i.e at 10 year old that he was not let to live longer just like some others into 100 years of old age.
Do you condemn God that he is not making your life eternal here on earth and that ends your life at any time he pleases which is what we call our predetermined destiny? Do you?

What I am trying to say is that we are all God's property, just like your belongings in your house are your property..
He can do anything he wants with mankind whom behave against his will..God has no problem to communicate his will to his messengers and that his messengers are in no way allowed to mischief or misbehave against God's will..
Do you have diffuculties to understand this issue?....

Oh by the way..didn't you earlier say that you recognize there is God and that you believe/trust in him?

Those are false analogies. Babies dying due to natural causes is not comparable to Allah going out of his way to order the deaths of innocent civilians and having his angels or intermediaries do the actual killings.

Those are false analogies. Babies dying due to natural causes is not comparable to Allah going out of his way to order the deaths of innocent civilians and having his angels or intermediaries do the actual killings.

what is natural causes?
I know quite a lot of cancer patients whom I think should have been dead by now but still living, and I know similar patience whom I think should have lived longer but were dead within few months..
I've heard of a lot of what we call miracles in life, totally unexpected but happened to suprise all of us..haven't you heard any?

Your and my creator can go out of his way when it concerns justice and his will..His will is that you don't behave against his laws. If you do he wages war against you as he wishes..In his case he has never punished anyone, unless he set the rules and informed them through his messengers..Anyone transgressed his law were punished be it by himself or through the hands of his messengers or something else as a cause..Don't you read the stories in Quran....i.e the case of pagans,tribes, certain groups of jews and christians refusing to recognise the reestablishment of God's pure religion.

Eh - are you happy with the fact that both you and Al Qaeda want to persuade people that you are right yo condone the massacres of people as long as 'god orders it' is an excuse?

I can only repeat that I do not condemn acts of God and cannot join you in condoning the enslavement and rape of 32000 virgins by the Israelites, after they slaughtered the non-vigins and males.

Do you think you will persuade me you and Al Qaeda are correct? Sorry, I don't subscribe to your moral values and condemn the war crime commited by Israelites.

Cheers
Shafique

.i.e the case of pagans,tribes, certain groups of jews and christians refusing to recognise the reestablishment of God's pure religion.

Yes, I'm aware that 'God' in the Koran has sent intermediaries to punish disbelievers in times past. The Koran records a number of cities where the civilians were all massacred by Allah's followers - men, women and children.

It speaks volumes that shafique sides with al Qaeda on the issue of massacring disbelievers. I do not condone what Allah orders in the Koran and I join any Muslim who denounces the massacres of the peace loving civilians who were killed because Allah told his followers to clean house.

I also would imagine, logically speaking, that Ibrahim should be considered to be a religious fanatic because he was willing to kill his own son because Allah told him so. Strangely, shafique has decided to skirt around my question if he also considers Ibrahim to be a religious fanatic.

Apparently, because Ibrahim was stopped at the last minute from sacrificing his son (because Allah told him to sacrifice a ram or something), that makes the whole episode of Ibrahim's attempted sacrifice perfectly acceptable. One has to wonder if that type of logic would wash if that story was found in non-sacred literature.

Nice attempt at diverting attention away from the topic in the thread titile and the fact you are the ONLY person who is condoning the enslavement of virgins by the Israelites.

You don't challenge the fact that this makes you MORE extreme a religious fanatic than Bin Laden - he just agrees with you that it is ok to kill civilians in the name of God.

I am glad you also are failing miserably to convince me to join your gang who think Israelites slaughtering civilians is an act of God.