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and living in Amsterdam.

Introducing: Geert Wilders - a man who believes in the right to free speech, regardless of the subject.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8549155.stm

A party that calls Islam a backward religion, wants a ban on headscarves in public life and has compared the Koran to Hitler's Mein Kampf has made major gains in local elections in the Netherlands.

Geert Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) has become the biggest party in the medium-sized city of Almere, and the second biggest in the political capital of the Netherlands, The Hague.

Mr Wilders was visibly buoyed by the results, but was also combative in his reaction, and called the results the first step in the upcoming campaign for parliamentary elections.

"The national campaign begins today. Today, in Almere and The Hague, tomorrow in all of the Netherlands… On 9 June, we'll conquer the Netherlands," he said.

The question remains whether the party will be able to join local government in those two cities. Dutch politics features a plethora of parties, and compromise is necessary to form coalitions.

Geert Wilders has said his party is ready to find the middle ground, but now he will be tested. Other Dutch parties are loath to work together with the PVV because of its outspoken standpoints.

Controversy fuels popularity

These elections are seen as an important indicator as the country prepares for parliamentary elections in June. The Labour Party's withdrawal from the Dutch cabinet on 20 February, causing the cabinet to fall, is just the opportunity Geert Wilders has been waiting for.

Anti-Wilders protesters have donned headscarves in sympathy with Muslims
Since releasing the anti-Islam film Fitna two years ago, and being refused entry into the UK last year, Mr Wilders has been riding high in the opinion polls. His party has consistently polled as one of the biggest in the country.

The fact that he has been charged with fomenting hatred and discrimination has, if anything, only served to increase his popularity, at home and abroad.

The trial is currently on hold after two preliminary hearings, but will resume in the summer, and ultimately Wilders could face two years in prison if convicted.

But this, too, seems to have worked in the politician's favour, with many seeing him as a champion of the right to free speech.

Mr Wilders is also riding a wave of anti-establishment sentiment. Many Dutch voters are tired of politics-as-usual. That is reflected by the relatively poor showing in these municipal elections by the two major parties that formed the recent governing coalition, the Labour Party and the Christian Democrats.

Other parties which did well were the centre-right D66 and the left-wing Green Left party - the two parties that have been most vocal against Geert Wilders.

The Dutch voters are split, but it is clear the established parties are struggling to stay in touch with them.



Oh yes, RobbyG, I expect to hear from you any moment now.

Hon, we have democratic processes in this country. Geert Wilders has strong and weak points and some extreme points. Given.

People in this country are sick and tired of the old adage in politics here. Our multi-culti approach is costing us millions of euros every year and he pushes for firm reform on immigration to keep the brightest and limit the welfare users. I think you need to know his entire party programme in order to judge him. This Islam point is merely following the French/Swiss/Turkish approach on banning burka in public buildings and Universities.

You are just like the left party people in my country. They are demonizing him and his voters as some Hitler figure, even before he had an opportunity to show what good he can do for the country. I think the people will decide whats best for them. Its called a democracy!

Just wait a while and see what his policies are, if... he wins the general elections in June. The outlook is promising for his party. I must admit, he does have good points although his rhetoric about Islam is a bit populistic, it does limit the integration into our very free society. Learning our language is part of that process and we have issues with neighbourhoods turning to unsafe area's with a majority of foreign immigrants living there. If the Dutch move out of their old neighbourhoods as they are spat upon, insulted, unable to communicate, feel unsafe etc, then something is wrong with immigration policy. The old politicians used the soft approach for decades, didn't work. Now its Wilders turn to get the balance back by strong reform and some identity preservation.

What does Hitler have to do with that?

His support mainly comes from people fed up with Muslim sensitivities. Problems with Moroccian youth also plays he large role IMO. What made a lot op people angry is that when youngers burn cars, you punish them instead of drinking tea with their parents.

He is scary though. He expressed his desire before to change to constitution iot allow discrimination. His idea to collect tax from women with a head scarf goes too far. Although I do share some sentiments with him, I donot trust him one bit.

If stories like this keep coming out I'm certain such so called leftists will gain even more popularity as is currently happenng all over Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8549044.stm

Flying Dutchman wrote:His support mainly comes from people fed up with Muslim sensitivities. Problems with Moroccian youth also plays he large role IMO. What made a lot op people angry is that when youngers burn cars, you punish them instead of drinking tea with their parents.

He is scary though. He expressed his desire before to change to constitution iot allow discrimination. His idea to collect tax from women with a head scarf goes too far. Although I do share some sentiments with him, I donot trust him one bit.

I agree with that view.

Its good that there is another voice, but if things get to radical in his approach, then the people will vote him out again very soon. I'm confident in that.

This election will be a vote of no confidence in 'politics as usual'. People are fed up with lame policies and cuddling foreigners by drinking tea with parents of young criminals. We are way to soft to the respectless attitude of young Marrocans and the sorts who get no punishment here, but 40 hour labour duty instead...

...while the following week they attack another busdriver, medical emergency staff etc and loot the old granny around the corner once again. It gotta stop.

RobbyG wrote: but if things get to radical in his approach, then the people will vote him out again very soon. I'm confident in that.

Are you confident enough that once he is in power, there will be fair elections again?

RobbyG wrote:This election will be a vote of no confidence in 'politics as usual'.

Like the LPF, look what happened then. Well, it's a bit different. What would have happened when Pim Fortuyn wouldn't have been killed by the left? A vote of no confidence can also be channeled through the Party for Animals. Once in power all politicians are the same, nothing will change (much).

RobbyG wrote: People are fed up with lame policies and cuddling foreigners by drinking tea with parents of young criminals. We are way to soft to the respectless attitude of young Marrocans and the sorts who get no punishment here, but 40 hour labour duty instead...

Lot of politicians and judges are a product of the 60s, when everybody needed a group hug. That will change soon no matter what.

RobbyG wrote: ...while the following week they attack another busdriver, medical emergency staff etc and loot the old granny around the corner once again. It gotta stop.

I know, I know, don't get me started about those 'bontkraagjes'.

This kind of people should never get in power, his elaborated views now are like this, what will happen if he got the power?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Are you confident enough that once he is in power, there will be fair elections again?

Don't forget how the latest government fell (third time in a row) after the coalition partner dropped the ball. Also, if a motion of no confidence is passed in parliament, the government is done right?

I'm more affraid of the left ideology than from the right. Don't forget that Hitler merely rose as the communist left proletariat were convinced they needed a leader to obtain their utopia. We don't have much communists anymore, we got 50% socialists in this country, so that would offer some counterforce. One thing is for sure, that the right parties won't obtain 'autocratic' rule over the Netherlands. Way to much opposition.

I'll bet you a penny on that. No Italy situation for us.

Like the LPF, look what happened then. Well, it's a bit different. What would have happened when Pim Fortuyn wouldn't have been killed by the left? A vote of no confidence can also be channeled through the Party for Animals. Once in power all politicians are the same, nothing will change (much).

Too bad Pim wasn't able to lay the immi reform out earlier. We wouldn't have had the growing problems of today with immigration. On the other hand, that gay fella was quite intellectually blessed. And as you probably know, intellectuals with great vocal capabilities as in convincing speeches can be very deluding in politics. (Obama and his 'Change')...

Lot of politicians and judges are a product of the 60s, when everybody needed a group hug. That will change soon no matter what.

I understand you general Dutch viewpoint on politics...

RobbyG wrote: ...while the following week they attack another busdriver, medical emergency staff etc and loot the old granny around the corner once again. It gotta stop.

I know, I know, don't get me started about those 'bontkraagjes'.

Exactly.

melika969 wrote:This kind of people should never get in power, his elaborated views now are like this, what will happen if he got the power?

Its not Iran here honey. The whole dynamic of government in this country is based on consensus. So its not like we have two militias ready to shoot eachother.

edit: well perhaps shooting words to eachother. The cops won't get trigger happy anytime soon. Thats for sure.

RobbyG wrote:

melika969 wrote:This kind of people should never get in power, his elaborated views now are like this, what will happen if he got the power?

Its not Iran here honey. The whole dynamic of government in this country is based on consensus. So its not like we have two militias ready to shoot eachother.

edit: well perhaps shooting words to eachother. The cops won't get trigger happy anytime soon. Thats for sure.

Make sure this is the last time you are laughing at my people! or I will make it the last time for u! u know i m already in my way to Holland!

If it'd based on consensus, and ur people are wise enough to not be fooled by nationalists, then he will never get in power!

p.s. in Iran it's not two militants shooting each other, it is military which shoot PEOPLE!

melika969 wrote:Make sure this is the last time you are laughing at my people! or I will make it the last time for u! u know i m already in my way to Holland!

Oh boy...I'm heading for the shelters already.

If it'd based on consensus, and ur people are wise enough to not be fooled by nationalists, then he will never get in power!

Every country needs an identity and we've thrown ours of the tracks along time ago, so i think its good we let ourselves be heard. After all...I feel I have nationalistic tendencies too. There's nothing wrong with being proud on your country, that is, if its on merits.

We squandered our nationalism for the left utopia of social welfare and multicultural support and development. Its time those wasteful subsidies go back in my pocket instead of some failed politician and his utopian lefty views of distributing wealth to an immigrant who doesn't INVEST his own time and money in HIS or HER integration into OUR society.

That didn't sound too nationalistic now did it?

p.s. in Iran it's not two militants shooting each other, it is military which shoot PEOPLE!

Cops, Militia's...Army....we only have talking heads who spend PEOPLE's money gathered by huge taxes. blehhhh

[quote="RobbyG"]We squandered our nationalism for the left utopia of social welfare and multicultural support and development. Its time those wasteful subsidies go back in my pocket instead of some failed politician and his utopian lefty views of distributing wealth to an immigrant who doesn't INVEST his own time and money in HIS or HER integration into OUR society.

That didn't sound too nationalistic now did it?

[quote]

Wow RobbyG, you are really showing your true colors (bold text above). So, there was no social welfare place in the Netherlands prior to all those ungrateful immigrants showing up.

This nut job was voted into office! He incites hate and uses "freedom of speech" as his platform to do it. In the US there are limitations on speech, especially speech that incites hatred and violence towards religious and ethnic groups. Maybe being too liberal isn't such a good thing. He really doesn't paint a pretty picture for the Dutch and he has his eye on the post of Prime Minister?!?!? He could only think that if he thinks he has the support of like-minded people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ister.html

So, tell me, will you be voting for him in June??

So, if you remove those immigrants from the Netherlands, the Netherlands will be crime free and you can tear down the prisons (I assume you do have them otherwise where would you put all those immigrant criminals) and all that money that was being wasted on them would go back in your pocket??? On the up side also is that the marijuana supply will increase and then the price could come down, being much more affordable so that the "real" Dutch can have more recreational time

Sorry to stir up your slander party, but I was overreacting a bit there. Nothing untrue though.

We are always extremely tolerant to foreigners, whether fortunate or unfortunate. But when the times become tough, you have to make choices.

The incentives for immigrants integration are with our government. Not with the immigrant himself. So if those people want to work and live here, I would like to see some personal investment from that, and fortunately, the right party politics are with me on that one.

Nothing wrong with personal responsibility right? If you do it good here, then you get benefits. That I find fair policy.

I vote for Liberals, notably the VVD, but also for a host of other party guidelines. No, thats not the PVV from Wilders. He's my second option.

RobbyG wrote::lol:

Sorry to stir up your party, but I was overreacting a bit there. Nothing untrue though.

We are always extremely tolerant to foreigners, whether fortunate or unfortunate. But when the times become tough, you have to make choices.

The incentives for immigrants integration are with our government. Not with the immigrant himself. So if those people want to work and live here, I would like to see some personal investment from that, and fortunately, the right party politics are with me on that one.

Nothing wrong with personal responsibility right? If you do it good here, then you get benefits. That I find fair policy.

I vote for Liberals, notably the VVD. No thats not the PVV from Wilders. He's my second option.

So, the Netherlands have become intolerant of Muslims and feels something needs to be done about them. It's time to make a choice. Interesting.

Please elaborate on "when times become tough"??? What is happening that "you have to make choices" and what are those choices in relation to the events?

If your government is at fault, then they need to fix what is wrong, but you don't target one group of people. Are you saying that only Muslims are on the dole?? When you say you want to "see some personal investment" from those working and living there, what exactly is the "personal" return you seek??? What I'm getting from you is that you are in agreement with Wilders, but your first choice thinks the same but is much more subtle about it.

If you talk about immigrants across the board - as you said the Netherlands is multicultural, then you are talking about multiple ethnicities and religions. But to target one group - namely Muslims - is just wrong.

You know my position about immigrants in the US, more so the illegal immigrants. But when a country opens its doors and the government wants to give it away, what are you going to do?? The government needs to be fixed - targeting a certain group because of their religion is just wrong!!!! Reform has to be across the board - to everyone who is a citizen because I find it highly unlikely that the problems your country is experiencing is a result of one religious group. Don't tell me you don't have any blonde haired, blue-eyed natives on the dole, or committing crimes.

So does your first liberal choice seek reform across the board (which would include a milder form of Wilder's thinking)? As opposed to your second choice (getting a clearer picture of you RobbyG) that seeks change by targeting Muslims.

I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

I'm reading with interest the discussion - and I have to say I have sympathy for views expressed by both FD and RobbyG - they make their points well.

For Wilders - I only know him from the 'Fitna' episode - and there I actually supported his right to make his point. I thnk it is always better to have views out in the open where the counter argument can also be heard and people can make up their minds. It's only an issue if the views expressed in Fitna were given disproportionate importance or airing.

On the immigrant issue in the Netherlands - I can't speak with any authority, as I've only visited Amsterdam once just over a year ago. It struck me as being no more (or less) diverse than London. But then again, I'd imagine that Amsterdam is not representative of the Netherlands generally - any more than New York or London are for the US and UK.

But may I ask a pertinent question? In the UK, the biggest segment of illegal immigrants (primarily over-stayers for economic reasons) are the Australians and South Africans, but the popular media and outcry is actually over either the 'brown skinned' or lately the 'Polish' immigrants. In many cases it is just the 'politically acceptable' way to be racist/xenophobic - the arguments about benefit cheats etc just don't hold water (immigrants in the UK are less likely to be on benefits, for example - with the growing feral underclass being the real issue there).

Is this a feature in Holland? Are the Morrocan youths being used as an excuse for Islamophobia? Also, history has taught us that when times are good, economically, these issues aren't high profile - but in downturns convenient scapegoats are found for people to vent their frustrations on - and typically the scapegoating has been unfair. (Again, I'm speaking generally and don't know whether this is applicable to Holland). What do you guys think?

(Just a question, I don't know - from the sound of it, stronger punishments of offenders sounds like a good idea

Bora Bora wrote:So, if you remove those immigrants from the Netherlands, the Netherlands will be crime free and you can tear down the prisons.

It's absolutely true but hardly plausible scenario in such a decadent democracy as Holland. I have always wondered why Rob emphasized on financial aspect only as he has received no unemloyment benefits and don't pay any taxes. In my view, the main issue is a criminal component of the immigrants from the Third World.

In Russia it's the fact, not assumption, that most violent crimes (90%) are commited by honorable members of nomadic tribes from Caucasus Mountains. Mr. Shafique, there is no reason to be nervous, as a half of them are kind "Christians".

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. :) However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model. :)

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Bora Bora wrote:Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. Shame on you.

It looks lake the main intension for writing the OP. Nothing new, the same Bronx cheer.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. Shame on you.

It looks lake the main intension for writing the OP. Nothing new, the same Bronx cheer.

Your post is as irrelevant as you are. Either get with the program or go back to hibernating in your cave.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:So, if you remove those immigrants from the Netherlands, the Netherlands will be crime free and you can tear down the prisons.

It's absolutely true but hardly plausible scenario in such a decadent democracy as Holland. I have always wondered why Rob emphasized on financial aspect only as he has received no unemloyment benefits and don't pay any taxes. In my view, the main issue is a criminal component of the immigrants from the Third World.

First of all, welcome back Chiefert.

Second, you are free to wonder whatever you like. Call it a sabbatical if you like. I enrich my mind instead of government coffers, for now that is.

I agree with the criminal component. No decadence here. Too much Calvinistic roots.

RobbyG wrote: Too many Calvinistic roots.

Max Weber? I like this guy too. Good reply to Marx. Anyway it's good to hear such an optimism. I'm not sure that our Mooslim friends share it.

shafique wrote:But may I ask a pertinent question? In the UK, the biggest segment of illegal immigrants (primarily over-stayers for economic reasons) are the Australians and South Africans, but the popular media and outcry is actually over either the 'brown skinned' or lately the 'Polish' immigrants. In many cases it is just the 'politically acceptable' way to be racist/xenophobic - the arguments about benefit cheats etc just don't hold water (immigrants in the UK are less likely to be on benefits, for example - with the growing feral underclass being the real issue there).

Is this a feature in Holland? Are the Morrocan youths being used as an excuse for Islamophobia? Also, history has taught us that when times are good, economically, these issues aren't high profile - but in downturns convenient scapegoats are found for people to vent their frustrations on - and typically the scapegoating has been unfair. (Again, I'm speaking generally and don't know whether this is applicable to Holland). What do you guys think?

(Just a question, I don't know - from the sound of it, stronger punishments of offenders sounds like a good idea

I'm not aware of the fact that Islamophobia plays are big role in our societal problems. The Dutch people aren't exactly intolerant. Rather the opposite, though private. You can do whatever you like, if you respect others people's privacy and rights.

This can result in some (young) groups of immigrants that feel bored, perhaps unappreciated, looked down upon by strange habits, all depending on their roots and cultural differences with eachother. So certain groups of immigrants flock together and create language barriers, cultural barriers instead of integrating into the native population. What I see among young Moroccan boys, is that they need to show absolute restraint and respect at home with their fathers, but have the freedom of Holland as they get outside on the streets, while knowing their rights all to well. So to avoid the hard hand at home, they foster outside, in groups, showing rude behaviour, smoking pot and pissing in peoples alleys and doorways. The young Moroccan problem is just one example, but they are the most notable and fierceful in disrespect to other groups of people. And the weird part is that they feel scapegoated by us!

I don't get that mentality. So it fostered for a long time and now people want tougher laws. Harder punishments etc. To me it seems as if some foreigners just don't feel home here, low participation in society while resting on (partial) unemployment benefits, some dealing drugs or robbing the grannies. There's a growing feeling of unsafety, but reaching the point where people just had enough.

Prisons are 50% empty in this country, but politicians are just too soft on revolving criminals. This goes for all types of criminals. But its in part an integration problem that has to be taken up at the root of the problem, which is immigration. The incentives are totally wrong. Costs are skyrocketing. Some cities have integration programs that costs 200.000 euro's for an immigrant to get a job. Are you kidding me!?

Islamophobia is just populism used by some politicians like Wilders. Not really of direct issue to me when considering his entire party program, but terrorism in Europe does make people wary and scared. Some Dutch perhaps respond to that if they look at some of the immigrant groups who are overly represented in criminal statistics. Perhaps some are wary of the growing number of Islamic worshipping places on top locations funded by foreign interests.

What struck me about the latest regional elections, is that there were muslim voters who helped their peers in voting cabins (fraud), just so they select the candidate that was recommended by some religious body in a foreign country. Can you believe that crap?

Anyway, because of these kind of developments, people anticipate and act accordingly before its becoming widespread.

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model.

Hahahaha, true! and welcome back RC!

Bora Bora wrote:

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Well said, As much as i have no problem with raising hate against Islam, but u have right points there Bora.

Thanks for the insights Robby - makes interesting reading.

Being hard on youth is a tactic tried in the UK - with the 'ASBOs' - anti-social behaviour orders. The perverse thing is that became a badge of honour amongst these 'feral' youth - a whole section of society that seems to fit your description of what the Morrocan youths are exemplifying in Holland. This underclass in the Uk is actually more defined by class - poor who survive on benefit and generally come from single parent families, usually generations of single parents. Many of these kids don't know anyone who has held a job! (Well, that is what the media have us believe).

So, if being soft on crime doesn't work in Holland, I'd agree with you that being a bit harder is the logical alternative. (But, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to thinking that moral and family values start with a marriage and stable home relationship of a nuclear family - call me old-fashioned.. - but that may not explain the Morrocan kids in Holland though, just the underclass in the UK)

Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Well said, As much as i have no problem with raising hate against Islam, but u have right points there Bora.

Well, I tried to indicate to you how I think about some OTHER partylines in his program. You constantly make it sound as if I like him as my second choice just because of his Islam standpoint. I don't. And its just ONE fraction of his plans/program for my country. Besides I don't even vote on him. So again, why are you after me on this one?!?

I merely explained the dynamics of immigration in my country and my viewpoint around it. If you want to know what Wilders thinks, give him an email. I merely told you my viewpoints.

I'm not going to defend that guy. I only look at the solutions he offers to the problem IN my country and I like the VVD better. Hope that clarifies.

shafique wrote:Thanks for the insights Robby - makes interesting reading.

Being hard on youth is a tactic tried in the UK - with the 'ASBOs' - anti-social behaviour orders. The perverse thing is that became a badge of honour amongst these 'feral' youth - a whole section of society that seems to fit your description of what the Morrocan youths are exemplifying in Holland. This underclass in the Uk is actually more defined by class - poor who survive on benefit and generally come from single parent families, usually generations of single parents. Many of these kids don't know anyone who has held a job! (Well, that is what the media have us believe).

So, if being soft on crime doesn't work in Holland, I'd agree with you that being a bit harder is the logical alternative. (But, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to thinking that moral and family values start with a marriage and stable home relationship of a nuclear family - call me old-fashioned.. - but that may not explain the Morrocan kids in Holland though, just the underclass in the UK)

Cheers,
Shafique

Indeed, a stronger rule should be applied. I gave the example of the Morrocan youth, but that goes for native Dutch sleezeballs also.

The only hardline rule I would incline to support is that when immigrants come here, and I assume thats because they hope to gain a better life. If some cases are showing criminal behaviour or don't obey the (soft) laws of this land, then I would say, repeal the visa or passport and move out. Go back to your own country and go make that place unsafe. Problem is that in some of those countries, when stealing, your arm will be chopped off. So the mentality of some fooks just needs to change a bit. We need a somewhat stronger arm of the law (police) in my opinion.

I haven't mentioned the immigrants from all over the world who do integrate well and bring diversity here. They deserve the credit for showing how its done. So I want to express that here also. Those people are most welcome. Logically.

melika969 wrote:

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model.

Hahahaha, true! and welcome back RC!

LOL From that perspective....A good kick below the buttocks might do some good indeed.

I think we can all agree on the problems that countries are faced with immigration.

But the thread has been taken totally off track: the point I was making is that this man is inciting hatred directly towards Muslims - not towards immigrants - and that he is using "freedom of speech" as his right to incite that hatred. Those are two separate issues. Immigrants come in all faiths.