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I'll keep this short.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm

and

COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

Now

Cartoons against Islam...

Do these governments (plus the EU as a whole) make it illegal to insult the Prophet? No.

Do western government censure poeple that defame the Prophet? No.

Do these governments ban such cartoons? No...

The Message

West can make fun of the Prophet, the most pure of men, the most honorable of men, the most special man. But God forbid we try to deny the holocaust....

Thankyou for your clear message oh Western Governments. We now understand how deep the Zionists have influenced you. You must be very gullable....

It is illogical and highly unintelligent to try and equate the two, especially coming from somebody as educated as yourself. Insults versus genocide.There is no analogy.

So what you say is that a human tragedy is worse than defaming the God's chosen one....

Humans are more important than God....???? I see....

God is First.... Then His Messangers.... Everything else is terciary....

Stupid Zionist influence...

Did you know that more Poles, Ruskis, homos, gypsies than Jews.... But we equate the holocaust with those people.

The West simply doesn't grasp anything other than whats in front of them.

You've lost your ability to read and you are making vast leaps in a non-intelligible way. Read carefully what I wrote. There is no analogy- this means that there is no comparison to be made. I would not, nor would anybody with an ounce of intelligence try to make comparisons. Sometimes you exhibit humour, sometimes you exhibit intelligence and at the moment you are speaking with anger and passion and making assumptions about what I wrote. My opinion on either incident or event is not stated. I did not state that one is worse than the other. They should not be compared. I will reiterate it for you if you wish but I am sure you possess the ability to re-read on your own.
You are also exhibiting ignorance-you never fail to imply that someone with a perceived counter view must be Western- BTW can I have your definition of such, now that would be interesting.

Zionists....

You want my definistion of what I mean by western?[/i]

Zionists....

Name calling really doesn't become you.

You want my definistion of what I mean by western?

Actually I don't care what your definition is-the fact that you bandy it around as an insult is really quite amusing and is a clear indication of your stance on issues like racism and bigotry. Contrary to your beliefs one would think.

GaB, As yuo are playing the wise guy, why don't you enlight us and unfold the blind that you assume is on our eyes.

BTW i don't agree with liban in many points, but the main stream thinking of Taboo of Holocaust (which in my personal opinion not proved fact as people still arguing) while everything else is considered as "Freedom of speach" i do agree with him on the double standard, intolerance of the EU countries and the USA.

Now, Enlight us and unfold our blinds please.

Boiling people in the name of science and using tanned human skin for lampshades and for binding books.....yshimy GAFL!! and get a clue!! Next you'll be telling me agent orange deformities are a myth. Please enlighten me with your theories (this is sarcasm-don't even bother replying it is a rhetorical question.)

If I can reiterate for you-there should be no comparison.
You agree with Liban that one incident is more heinous than the other. You explain to me how?

And so people say.... I know it is exagerated....

Besides other groups suffered in greater numbers than the Jews....

Also GAB, you asked for my definition of western.... Did you forget? The fifth post before this one.

GAB wrote:You agree with Liban that one incident is more heinous than the other. You explain to me how?

Defaming God and His Chosen One is a far worse crime than anything else....

Personally what happened 60 years ago was unfortunate but that was 60 years ago!!!!!, time to get over it.... Because beleive me the vast majority of the world DOESN'T CARE anymore!!!!

WTF?

My single point is....

IF it is "Freedom of Speach", so for EVERYTHING,
NOT everything but holocaust

Side note: This guy is a historian, so that is his work, what about a cartoonist who knows nothing about our religion!!!!!

The first go to trial and sentanced, the second still free, may be laughing now with friends and making a fuss how he changed the world and caused all this hassel and arguments, and being considered by other "stupid" journalists in europe as the Hero and use his "stupid act" to rally for "Freedom of speech" by posting ignorant cartoons.

Remind me what they did when the Zionists pressured for a law to Shut the fu(k out of them when they speak about Holocaust....... They kept their mouth shut or they will loose their jobs as Zionists controlls their media and though their jobs.........!!!

Ture Heros.
Now dare to speak about freedom of speech.

Not that I can actually understand anything you've written but you are barking up the wrong tree. Fact is read what I actually wrote not what you think I wrote. I actually think freedom of speech is great but agree there should be limitations. You'd think any logical, intelligent person would see that there are ethical and moral limits, but apparently not. I agree some things are "out of bounds" so to speak for those reasons. It shows a lack of compassion and empathy to print some things just for the sake of sensationalism, free publicity and just to "see how far we can go". BTW if you read my opinion in other posts you'll see I do NOT condone the act of printing the cartoons.

An example would be a sportsman who recently was photographed as Jesus with a crown of thorns. What do you think of that?

GAB wrote:An example would be a sportsman who recently was photographed as Jesus with a crown of thorns. What do you think of that?

I think that is a horrible thing to do and I hope the sportsman repents for what he did and ask forgiveness of God...

So whats your point?

I think that it is ridiculous to throw people in jail for expressing views on the holocaust. We have historical records that clearly show that the holocaust happened. If we want free speech for the important matters, we need to put up with the bad that comes along with it. Besides, misleading information and outright lies can be handled with solid information and education campaigns - no need to throw people in jail. Inciting hatred and calling people to violence is another matter, but David Irving hasn't been charged with that.

No Comment about the sports man as jesus, as i saw in american movies depication or whatever it is called of jesus in many things, poistions, acts and even people swear and curse his name.

for me, i don't think of jesus as the person being showed in media nowadays nor the photos, i belive in him, like i belive in Muhammed PBUH as an absolute person, no face no body, just a person i love and prophet of god.


GAB, I think we agree on the concept of limitation of freedom.

Thank you

You also have to remember that David Irving made the comments based on his current knowledge at the time. But he changed his view when he gained new knowledge and new evidence which proved to him that the event did inded happen. That's what history is about, theories and ideas based on evidence available at the time, until new evidence proves or disproves one way or the other.

Now the Holocaust happened there's no denying that and the coutries that have these laws in place are the ones that were mainly affected by it, or its citizens.

The situation is not really comparable to the cartoons, as laws governing that only apply to Islmaic states, not everyone is Muslim or believes in Islam, so a lot of people just consider it a lot of fuss over nothing.

You cannot compare the killing of millions to a cartoon scribbling - that's just daft.

tsk tsk tsk.... Millions.... Who says millions? The Jews and the victors.... Whatever...

Anyways, the point here is that Islam is more important than HUMANITY... So billions can die today but the greater injustice lies with blasphemising Islam.

Those of no faith and thus no future after they croak, will never understand that... Well strike that, once they croak off, they will learn the truth and then its too late.

That's where you're wrong. Nothing is more important than humanity and being kind to one another and treating other people as you would like to be treated. Religions will come and go, and our future generations will look back and hang their heads in shame at the stupidity or people fighting and killing one another, and for what? For the promise of what might be?

Purlease, do me a favour! People should live their lives well and treat their one chance as a little bit of heaven, instead of looking and worrying about what might or might not be after they're gone.

And Liban, also worth noting, that the people who've reacted with violence and hatred over the cartoons, have only managed to kill one another - how pathetic is that? Plus while the boycotts are affecting Arla products, it's also jepordising the livelyhoods of over 1000 Muslims in the region, so again well done for thinking of the consequences of rash actions. And are the people who sanctioned such actions going to be willing to put their hand in their own pocket to compensate them? I seriously doubt it!

Chocho,
You still Can't get the point and can't blame you as i can see from your post you are not a beliver of even the concept of after life and though the concept of God, even if you claim you are a beliver, you have doubts (check your upper post)

religions come and go

I'm Struck. in islam it is one religion since Adam till now. but still even people might divide them into 3, 2, or 1, be open minded and say only 3 religions exists the rest are just..... not holly, (to be poliete).

Now the Holocaust happened there's no denying that

Thats your opinion, it is a matter of opinion as if it is a fact, there would be no law against denying it... "protecting the myth"



Welll the rest of your post addressing liban doesn't make any sense so i'll not comment......

Well as far as I was aware Islam is not since Adam, again all myth! Christianity is a far older.

And how can you say other religions are not Holy? They all basically teach the same things and worship the same God, so what's yer beef? Just because they have different names doesn't mean they aren't justifiable.

Anyone who says the Holocaust is amyth is totally blind, and it's shameful that people would deny such suffering and horrific things.

Shame on you.

Islam based on Worshiping of the one and only God with no companion (please correct my translation if not right).

Adam, Ibrahiem, Moses, Jesus and Muhamed, all belived in it and muslim prophets according to our islamic teachings.

"wa kad samakom al muslimon men kabl" "and he called you the muslims from before"

Hope i'm not confusing anyone, but i know it is hard for non muslims to understand. please if someone can clarify better, just do it please.

We belive in Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Torah, Bible and Quran.

I think you can't understand the whole logic except after long discussion on our belif's.

seriously, i don't think choco would be interested. or might be for the sake of figuring where the wrongs are, and she will not find our religions is perfect.

Choc

Give up or you may as well just bang you head against the wall

Salaam,

Recently I came across one Article from leading Magzine In INdia abt Current Controversy. And I would like to heve ur opnion abt it.

Cartoon Crisis

Hard Questions

The Chinese word for "crisis" is brilliant: It combines two characters: danger and opportunity. The crisis over the Danish cartoons on Islam presents many dangers, but also offers some opportunities to address hard questions head on.

KISHORE MAHBUBANI
SINGAPORE

The Chinese word for "crisis" is brilliant: It combines two characters: danger and opportunity. The crisis over the Danish cartoons on Islam presents many dangers, but also offers some opportunities.

The first opportunity the crisis provides is to educate us on how much the world has changed. Before this crisis, the 5.4 million Danes could retain the illusion that they sailed on a different boat from the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims. Now they, like most Europeans, are aware that those Muslims share the same boat.

None of us would board a boat and deliberately rile a large group of fellow passengers. If one group rocks the boat, we would all sink together. The Danish cartoon crisis has demonstrated that the 5.4 million Danes, and 400 million fellow EU citizens, share a common political and emotional space with 1.2 billion Muslims. These Muslims are experiencing a deep existential angst, an angst aggravated by the Danish cartoons. Their anger can rock our boat. The widespread riots and loss of life that followed should now spur us to understand the deep roots of this anger.

The Danes are familiar with the proverbial expression of the straw that broke the camel’s back. The cartoons, perhaps only a straw, reinforce the deep sense of injustice that many Muslims feel. Muslims are convinced that the world, especially the West, shows no moral concern over their plight. The loss of innocent Muslim lives, whether in Iraq and Palestine, Afghanistan or Pakistan, does not stir the world. Nor has the West shown any real interest in supporting the development of Muslim societies. In short, the cartoons hurt the Muslims badly because they add real insult to real injuries.

The second opportunity this crisis provides is for the 1.2 billion Muslims to engage in some deep reflection. If they were strong and powerful, no small European country could afford to anger and alienate them. The ability of a Danish newspaper to publish the cartoons and the subsequent decision of several European papers to republish them demonstrated the weakness of the Muslim world. The Europeans knew that Muslims could not retaliate and hurt Europe. Hence, Muslim sensitivities could be ignored.

Mass demonstrations, including assaults on the Danish embassies in Damascus and Beirut, are not an expression of strength. As Tariq Ramadan said, "The Muslim reaction is far too excessive and not the way forward." The Muslim world has neither hard power nor soft power and lags behind Europe in social and educational indices. As such, the Muslim world needs to understand why it has become so weak relative to Europe.

A thousand years ago, when the Muslim caliphates were shining brightly, while preserving the rich fruits of Greek and Roman civilizations, Europe was emerging from the Dark Ages. In the contest between civilizations, the Muslims had clearly surpassed the Christians by the year 1000. Today, despite its many problems, Europe is far ahead.

Why do so few Muslims ask the obvious question: How did the Muslim world, like much of Asia, lose a thousand years? China too lost many centuries in catching up with the West. So did India. But both civilizations are finally waking up, absorbing the best practices of the West, including a careful delineation of the roles of religion and state in the development of modern societies. If the Muslim world cannot emulate the West, can it emulate China and India? The Prophet Muhammad once said: "Seek knowledge, even into China. That is the duty for every Muslim." If Muslims heeded such advice, Europe may not have drawn offensive cartoons.

The third opportunity from the crisis is for the world to reflect on the vices and virtues of freedom of expression.The Danish prime minister’s defense is that his government could not stop the publication of the cartoons because freedom of expression is an absolute value. Technically, he is right. No Danish law would allow him to stop the cartoons. But societies do have sensitivities. The Danish insensitivity to the Muslim world has clearly come through. As Jonathan Eyal noted in the Singapore Straits Times, "No self-respecting European newspaper would dare to publish a cartoon making fun of the Holocaust, the systematic murder of Jews during World War II." Every society has its taboos. Today every society has to respect its own taboos and those of its neighbors. There is one simple reason why a few Danish cartoons could rock the world. The world is no longer a world. We live in the same neighborhood. Every human is our neighbor. The Muslims are our neighbors, too. We must respect their sentiments.

And yet it would be a great loss for mankind if the virtue of freedom of expression were sacrificed or diminished as a result of this cartoon crisis. Even the Muslim world would suffer. The sad reason for the struggle of many Muslim societies is that they have some dysfunctional aspects. Some of their elites feather their own nests, not that of their populations. The lack of a free press in many parts of the Muslim world prevents critics from exposing the inequities. Hence, the Muslim world should welcome rather than reject a free press. Look, for example, at the brave work done by Tempo, Indonesia’s leading weekly newsmagazine. Only it has the courage to point out both the weaknesses of the Indonesian government and the Muslim extremists who try to stifle debate in Indonesia. The Muslim world needs more Tempos, not fewer.

But the virtues of freedom of expression would be better appreciated in the rest of the world if the Western media, which dominate the world’s airwaves, encouraged a two-way street of ideas instead of the current one-way street. The open bewilderment of the Danes and Europeans at the global Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons only reflects the widespread ignorance of the existential conditions of the Muslim world. It is no great secret that the Muslim world feels trampled upon by the West. They resent the double standards of the Western media on human rights, protesting strongly when non-Muslims are killed, as in East Timor, and protesting mildly when Muslims are killed, as in Palestine and Iraq. The Western media has convinced Western publics that they are paragons of virtue on human rights issues. But the Muslims, together with most of the five billion people who live outside the West, are acutely aware of the double standards.

The Danish cartoon crisis therefore provides the Western media an opportunity for self-reflection: How could they have failed to explain the viewpoint of five-sixths of humanity to their own populations? How can a free press be so irresponsible?

In short, despite the strongly held beliefs by both sides, there are no saints and sinners in this crisis. Both sides should engage in deep reflection on what they have done to allow the emergence of this crisis. When the dust has settled and the demonstrators have gone home, we should begin to work out the long-term future of mankind.

Is it tenable for us to live in the same neighborhood and ignore the sentiments and wisdom of large segments of humanity? Is it wise for us to temper the open debate that the virtues of freedom of expression allow? Is it reasonable to allow the continuation of a one-way street in the passage of ideas from West to East? These are hard questions. The Danish cartoon crisis has provided us an opportunity to address them head on.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kishore Mahbubani is the dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, NUS, and the author of Can Asians Think? and Beyond the Age of Innocence: Rebuilding Trust between America and the World.Rights: © 2006 Yale Center for the Study of Globalization. YaleGlobal Online.

Yshimy, It's obviously far from perfect judging by all the nutters who muder and kill innocents in the name of 'religion' or a re they just stupid for misinterpreting it?

Anyways, the point here is that Islam is more important than HUMANITY... So billions can die today but the greater injustice lies with blasphemising Islam.

This is where you are wrong and it is a misinterpretation of your religion. Islam is about peace and love. It does not condone violence or acts of violence. To think Islam actually thinks nothing of human life is a gross misinterpretation. You know it. What you quite often profess is blasphemy and disrespectful to the ideals of Islam.

yshimy-quite alot of what you type is gobbledegook and really just .

You people that do not understand are pathetic.... You will never understand because of your closed mindedness and for that you shall suffer.... I feel bad for your eventual suffering but you had ample warning.

PITIFUL BUNCH

I am done trying to make a bunch of blind people see the light when they simply cannot....

My valuable contribution to this thread ends now.

A well constructed, thoughtful answer. Well, nice to see you back in true form. Please don't respond as that would make you untrue to your word.

Chocoholic wrote:Well as far as I was aware Islam is not since Adam, again all myth! Christianity is a far older.

And how can you say other religions are not Holy? They all basically teach the same things and worship the same God, so what's yer beef? Just because they have different names doesn't mean they aren't justifiable.

Anyone who says the Holocaust is amyth is totally blind, and it's shameful that people would deny such suffering and horrific things.

Shame on you.

Well again u r contradicting urself here. religions do have stories or accounts saying they are chosen one and being persecuted by bad and same is the case with Holocaust, persecuted by THE EVIL Hitler. Now u and I havent seen a crap, yes we believe it happened cos of certain things that may appear as proofs or reasons and finally trust and have faith on em. Some follow blindly others question. There were and are loads of other persecution far worse than Holocaust yet their persecution were given a specific name cos to save the media of trouble. I agree holocaust did happen but ppl are making very big deal out of it and taking advantage in the name of those dead ppl makes me sick.

Sniper, what do you mean about people making a big deal about it and taking advantage of the dead people?