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The sheikh (aka 'freefromrats'; Ikka'; 'event horizon') is lately issuing opinions (aka fatwas) on what Islam teaches about women driving. We agree that God does not say that women should not drive in the Quran. Another recurring theme is supposed war crimes by the Prophet, pbuh, and whether God orders Muslims to kill all non-Muslims or not.

However, it raises the interesting question about what God does allow according to earlier scriptures.

Let's start with Numbers 31. Moses apparently orders the destruction of captured villages and the killing of all men and married women (in fact the Bible says that Moses was angry that the women weren't all killed initially). The virgins are to be kept for the Israelites use

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Therefore, I'd expect the sheikh to be quite outspoken and denouce the above war crimes.

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh, and Numbers 31 continues and tells us exactly how many virgins were captured:

The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

32,000!

Which begs the question - how many non-virgin women, men and boys were slaughtered?

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey - God in the Koran is the one who raised numerous cities. Is there any difference between God ordering the Israelites to massacre the inhabitants of cities than if God did it himself?

Perhaps God is just more efficient - he couldn't, after all, entrust such destruction to bumblers like Muhammad and co.

As for your quaint comparison between the verses in the Koran with those in the Bible, the Koran calls for warfare against all disbelievers for all times - the Bible's violent passages are a dead letter.

Yes, oh sheikh, I understand it is important for us to repeat the reverse psychology arguments of the Quran whenever we can (you have taught us this well).

However, won't some people realise that in threads about the Bible and war crimes listed there, perhaps we should address what the Bible says as well?

Cheers,
Shafique

So you deny that the Koran records 'God' destroying numerous cities? At least with the Bible, when God destroyed Sodom and Gemora, he did so only after he reassured Abraham that there were no good people residing there.

As I said sheikh, I am quoting the Biblical accounts of the slaughter of men, women and children and the sparing of only the virgins (well all 32,000 of them).

I didn't refer to the Quran at all - but as I said, it may be a bit too transparent to ask people to read the Quran in this thread - we should rather stick to the Bible's accounts. (We can discuss where God says it is ok to sell one's daughter into slavery another time)

So, care to comment on the Biblical verses quoted?

(You're right about God killing civilians though - God killed the first born boys of the Egyptians at the time of Moses - however here we're talking about Israelites slaughtering women, men, boys and keeping virgins for their own use)

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, many Gnostics would point out that the God of the Hebrew Bible is very similar to the 'God' of the Koran.

Now, can you tell me the difference between God personally killing civilians and God using people as instruments to do the killing?

Are you trying to justify the killing of women, boys, men and the enslavement of 32,000 virgins by the Israelites by saying this is what God ordered?

Either you are condoning the slaughter of non-virgins or you are justifying it.

It appears to me you are trying to justify these massacres. Please clarify.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I'm just pointing out that God slaughters/wipes out entire peoples in the Koran.

It appears to me you are justifying these massacres. Please clarify.

I actually have no hesitation in condemning the slaughter of men, women and boys and the enslavement of 32000 virgins. You will recall I even condemned the massacres you think Muslims carried out (but which turned out to be fanciful interpretations of 'clement punishments').

So, are you condemning the massacres described above (like me) or are you condoning them?

I can't see how you can do both - so either you condemn the Israelite actions or you condone them.

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you condemn the slaughter of men, women and children inflicted by Allah?

Musa was a great Muslim.

I condemn unreservedly the massacre of women, men, boys and the enslavement of 32,000 virgins by the Israelites as described in the Bible above.

Do you condemn it or do you condone the massacre?

Cheers,
Shafique

You didn't answer the question - do you condemn the massacres committed by Allah when he destroyed numerous cities as recorded in the Koran?

If you will note, the title of this thread is about Biblical war crimes.

I unreservedly condemn the massacre of women, men and children carried out by Israelites. Do you?

(I will answer the question about the destructions carried out by God - either in Bible or Quran, but only after we've established whether you join me in condemning the massacres carried out by the Israelites or whether you condone them)

Cheers,
Shafique

It is a simple question.

Do you join me in condemning the war crime committed by Israelites described in the Bible where they massacred women, boys and men and enslaved 32,000 virgins - or not?

Cheers,
Shafique

What's the difference between God massacring civilians (as Allah does in the Koran) and God ordering people to do so?

It's pretty obvious - one is carried out by acts of God, the other is carried out by people massacring women and children (but sparing virgins).

I unreservedly condemn the latter.

The simple question is - do you?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It's pretty obvious - one is carried out by acts of God, the other is carried out by people massacring women and children (but sparing virgins).

I unreservedly condemn the latter.

The simple question is - do you?

Cheers,
Shafique

Really? Do you think the victims of Allah's massacres were thinking that as their families were wiped out?

Where's that moral equivalency quote when you really need it?

No, I don't see a moral equivalency between acts of God and Israelites butchering children, men and women and only sparing 32,000 virgins.

Are you saying that you do?

I condemn the Biblical war crime carried out by the Israelites. It almost appears as if you are saying its ok to massacre children - as long as 'God told us to'!

I'm sure you'll clarify and answer the question whether you join me in condemning the Israelite war crime or whether you think it is ok to have butchered those civilians.

(Just to be clear I'm asking you two questions now:
1. Do you see a moral equivalence between acts of God and the butchering of civilians by the Israelites? and
2. Do you condone the butchering of civilians by the Israelites - as described in the bible?)

Cheers,
Shafique

Really? You don't see a difference between Allah butchering women and children and God having others do it instead?

Could you please clarify what the differences between the two (if any) there are?

No, I don't see any moral equivalence between acts of God and the butchering of children and civilians by Israelites.

I'm not sure how many times I can repeat this simple moral stance I have. I've told you how they are different - one is an act of God - the other is a cold blooded slaughter of civilians.

I'm surprised you need me to tell you the difference. That's quite troubling on a number of levels.

In the mean time, I'll keep asking whether you share my view or whether you condone the massacre of children, men and non-virgin women, and the enslavement of 32,000 virgins by the Israelites or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

I've told you how they are different - one is an act of God - the other is a cold blooded slaughter of civilians.

They were both acts where civilians were slaughtered. What difference does it make if Allah did it (through Angels and other intermediaries) or if the Israelites carried out the killings?

Your responses are a bit baffling to me - which is why I keep asking you the same question over and over again - what is the difference if 'God' wiped out cities (as the Koran records him doing so) or if 'Gd used people to carry out the killings? The result is the same - a lot of dead civilians. 'God' just used brimstone and fire.

If you want to talk about war crimes - we can also discuss the war crimes the Muslims carried out (in the Koran) by taking over the 'Sacred Mosque' and prohibiting (oppressing) the Pagans from worshiping. The Koran, after all, says that oppression is worse than slaughter - so, by prohibiting the Pagans from using their own holy place to worship, the Muslims were committing a grave crime.

I'm surprised you need me to tell you the difference. That's quite troubling on a number of levels

Now you know how I feel when I read quotes comparing a suicide bomber who deliberately targets civilians at a market place to an errant bomb from a stealth bomber that happens to (accidentally) hit a market place. That's quite a bit troubling (seriously) on a number of levels.

In the mean time, I'll keep asking whether you share my view or whether you condone the massacre of children, men and non-virgin women, and the enslavement of 32,000 virgins by the Israelites or not.

I totally condemn the war crime that the Muslims are said to have carried out in the Koran by prohibiting the Pagans from worshiping at their holy site.

Don't you?

I refer you to the 'Hypocrisy Uncovered' thread.

I condemn the massacre of civilians carried out by the Israelites - I invite you to do the same.

Cheers,
Shafique

But do you condemn the massacres 'God' is described in the Koran as carrying out? Or is killing civilians 'ok' depending on who the killer is?

I categorically condemn the war crimes carried out by Israelites described in the Bible.

Why don't you?

(We can start another thread on acts of God and whether you and I condemn them, I personally don't condemn any of God's actions - only acts carried out by men against humanity or even animals)

Cheers,
Shafique

So, we've established that the only defence for the war crime described offered by eh, is that God also kills civilians when he sends down punishment in the form of volcanoes etc.

I presume therefore that eh is one of those who believe that AIDS is a punishment meted out on gays by God.

It is interesting that no attempt has been made to denounce the war crimes carried out by the Israelites - and therefore eh is ok with enslaving of virgins (all 32,000 of them) and the cold-blooded killing of women, boys, men and babies - just because he believes God ordered this to be done.

This stance on the massacre at the time of Moses also shines light on why eh has also refused to condemn the more recent slaughter of innocent worshippers by the Israeli Army Officer Baruch Goldstein (actually an American emigre and doctor) in the 90s.


Someone who believes it is ok to murder and enslave because of Divine instruction is indeed commonly referred to as a religious fanatic.

We have uncovered one here - it seems.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, we've established that the only defence for the war crime described offered by eh, is that God also kills civilians when he sends down punishment in the form of volcanoes etc.

Strawman.

shafique wrote:Someone who believes it is ok to murder and enslave because of Divine instruction is indeed commonly referred to as a religious fanatic.

We have uncovered one here - it seems.

No defence against this conclusion, I see.

I personally think it is highly hypocritical to on the one hand condone the enslavement and probable rape of 32,000 virgins whose families were massacred in cold blood, and then accuse Islam of being anti-women because you think men can expose their genitalia to their slave women!

But I am shocked that you can't bring yourself to condemn the slaughter of civilians and enslavement of virgins by the Israelites - but can condemn acts of God. That does indeed speak volumes - aren't you putting Israelites above God by only condemning the latter and not the former?

Cheers,
Shafique

but can condemn acts of God.

I guess I don't see the difference between "God" sending Angels and other intermediaries down to slaughter civilians and God ordering humans to do so.