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shafique wrote:Hey, perhaps I wasn't being clear.

We can go into the 'WHY' of you chose the option of either 'Jews were responsible for killing Jesus, not Pilate' or 'Pilate was responsible for killing Jesus, not the Jews'. I can't see how you could choose 'both were responsible' as there seems to be no overlap.

First you need to tell us which of the two camps you belong to.

Who do YOU believe was responsible for killing Jesus?
a. Jews
b. Pilate

(It appears you are laying the foundations for a flip-flop and will come up with an excuse for why Matthew is wrong to absolve Pilate and put the responsibility only on the Jews - but I don't want to assume anything, you need to tell us first what you believe.)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:No, claiming that Jews killed Jesus is not anti-Semitic. Why would it be?

shafique wrote:Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."

event horizon wrote:Hey, I'm just pointing out that the New Testament lays the blame of Jesus' death squarely on the feet of the authorities/powers of the time.

shafique wrote:Does your copy of the New Testament not have the following verses in it? Does your translation NOT absolve Pilate and put the responsibility on the Jews?

shafique wrote:Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."

Do YOU not believe these verses from Matthew are true? (Wow, that would be a major flip-flop)

I totally agree you have the choice between believing Matthew or blaming Pilate.

Does your copy of the Bible have Matthew NOT saying that Pilate washed his hands and was not responsible for killing Jesus.?

Or do you agree with those who say Matthew was wrong?

Why so coy about your belief about the Bible?

It appears that our friend eh believes that the Biblical account of Jesus' trial is correct and he believes that the Romans were not responsible for killing of Jesus, but rather it was the responsiblity of 'Jews'.

This view is nowadays viewed as anti-semitic, but kudos to eh for having the courage of his convictions and sticking with the Bible. (I'm assuming he would have renounced the anti-semitic literal interpretation if he was one of the 21st century christians who now blame Pilate)


I fully understand why eh maintains his belief - as the Bible is pretty clear on the subject.
Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.


However, 21st century Christians argue that the above is not correct and it is actually Pilate who is responsible.

The Apostle's Creed states:
..He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.


Which notably does not absolve the jews of responsibility for the killing - as it only states that Pilate was the means by which the Jews killed Jesus. Matthew clearly states that Jesus was killed despite the best efforts of Pilate to get him released.


So, whilst I disagree with eh over many points - I can't fault him for sticking to the literal message of the Bible and not blaming Pilate for killing Jesus.

That said, if I've misunderstood eh's non-renunciation of the verse above, I'm sure he will clarify his belief.

Amos 2:6-16 (New International Version)

Judgment on Israel
6 This is what the LORD says:
"For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}.
They sell the righteous for silver,
and the needy for a pair of sandals.

7 They trample on the heads of the poor
as upon the dust of the ground
and deny justice to the oppressed.
Father and son use the same girl
and so profane my holy name.

8 They lie down beside every altar
on garments taken in pledge.
In the house of their god
they drink wine taken as fines.

9 "I destroyed the Amorite before them,
though he was tall as the cedars
and strong as the oaks.
I destroyed his fruit above
and his roots below.

10 "I brought you up out of Egypt,
and I led you forty years in the desert
to give you the land of the Amorites.

11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons
and Nazirites from among your young men.
Is this not true, people of Israel?"
declares the LORD.

12 "But you made the Nazirites drink wine
and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

13 "Now then, I will crush you
as a cart crushes when loaded with grain.

14 The swift will not escape,
the strong will not muster their strength,
and the warrior will not save his life.

15 The archer will not stand his ground,
the fleet-footed soldier will not get away,
and the horseman will not save his life.

16 Even the bravest warriors
will flee naked on that day,"
declares the LORD.

event horizon wrote:The NT is not categorical in saying that the Jews killed Jesus -

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.

The question is simple - do you agree Pilate is not to blame and those responsible are those who take responsibility (the Jews who say this above)?

Do you agree with Matthew that Pilate was not to blame and that the responsibility lies with the Jews who say 'We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death'.

Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."