Muslim Women To Mosque: Tear Down This Wall

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Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 19, 2010
I don't understand why these women have to be so special. As devout Muslim women, they should be content with following the precedent set for Muhammad's wives by having them live behind curtains and segregated from the male Muslim population:

Koran 33:53 - O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behoove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.

Curtains are the answer.

(RNS) The walls that segregate Muslim men from women inside many American mosques took a long time to go up, and it could be a long time before they come down.

On Saturday (Feb. 20), Fatima Thompson will find out just how firm those walls are.

Thompson, 44, is planning for about 30 like-minded Muslims to help her stage a "stand-in" at the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C., in a bid to persuade mosque leaders to remove a seven-foot partition behind which women pray -- or at least allow women the option of praying in front of it.

"Every woman should be able to stand with the congregation. That's the correct way," said Thompson, who converted to Islam 18 years ago.

Thompson's protest at the stately mosque along Embassy Row is the latest effort by Muslim activists to reform conditions in American mosques that they say are discriminatory and degrading to women.

Muslim prayers are typically led by male imams. Behind them are rows of men, and behind them rows of women and children. But according to a 2001 report by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, in nearly two-thirds of American mosques, female worshippers pray behind a partition, or in balconies or rooms that are separate from the main congregation hall.

Some women say the separate spaces -- sometimes filthy, often crowded with children -- make it impossible to see and hard to hear the imam. The whole experience has led many women to stay home altogether, activists say.

Despite calls by CAIR and other major Muslim-American organizations to allow women access to the main prayer halls, or at least decent prayer spaces for women, few mosques seem to have reformed.

It's been a contentious issue within American Islam for several years, as disputes erupted inside -- and sometimes outside -- mosques in Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Charlotte, N.C., and Morgantown, W.V.

Some Muslims have left to form more egalitarian congregations. A smaller minority of U.S. Muslims have openly advocated for mixed-gender prayers, or even allowing women to lead prayers, as long as they are qualified.

Ani Zonneveld of Los Angeles said she and about 20 other Muslims have formed their own congregation, using rented space inside a church in West Hollywood. There, space is available for "unsegregated prayer," where men and women can pray side by side, as well as space for worshippers who prefer gender segregation.

"This is a lot more family-friendly. With us, fathers can pray with their daughters," said Zonneveld.

Islam's sacred text, the Quran, mentions nothing about partitions or separate female prayer spaces. But a hadith -- one of the collected stories of the Prophet Muhammad that are a source of guidance -- describes Muhammad organizing a prayer: "He put the men in the row closest to him, the children in a row behind the men, and the women in a row behind the children."

Opponents say the lack of a mention within the Quran, and no reference to a barrier in the hadith, suggests that women should be praying in the main hall. In fact, women prayed alongside men for centuries, they say, and physical barriers were developed by South Asian and Arab cultures seeking to distinguish themselves from Western promiscuity.

"They think this somehow proves they're more pious," said Pamela Taylor, a board member of Muslims for Progressive Values, a grassroots group.

Some women say their second-class status isn't confined to the mosque. The same mindset also allows or overlooks domestic violence and limits women's access to education and jobs.

"As long as we segregate ourselves in the mosques, we will never be free in the world," said Asra Nomani, a journalist who has tried, with mixed results, to improve conditions for women in her hometown mosque in Morgantown, W.V.

Before deciding to pursue her stand-in, Thompson said she tried to meet with the mosque's director, Abdullah M. Khouj. She said she called several times and hand-delivered a grievance letter to a mosque employee on Feb. 5, a Friday, when Muslims hold congregational prayers.

She also handed out fliers to congregants, piquing interest from a few younger women and criticism from some older women who frowned on change. At least one man threatened to call the police, Thompson said.

Khouj did not respond to a request for comment, but Fatima Goodwin, a mosque employee who also worships there, said Thompson is acting alone.

"Not a single woman that prays here has expressed disagreement with the partition," said Goodwin. "On the contrary, all of the women that pray here want the partition because it gives us privacy."

Indeed, female activists say some of their strongest resistance comes from women themselves, who say the separation protects them from male ogling or distraction. Pro-inclusion activists say those women should have access to separate space if they want it, but the choice should also be offered to women who want to be in the main prayer hall.

While Zonneveld, from Los Angeles, applauded Thompson's effort, she wondered if building new walls isn't easier than tearing down old ones.

"This mosque is not going to budge," she said. "Maybe it would be better if they concentrated on building their own congregation."


http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2010/02/ ... to-mix.php

An interesting article overall, I would say. It's also important to realize that in Islam, if a woman walks in front of a man praying, his prayer is nullified.

So, for practical reasons, it makes sense to have women worship/prostrate in separate rooms so they do not contaminate the prayers and imaan of Muslim men (Muslim men can't control themselves and resort to cat calls and groping around the presence of women - that's why women need to cover up, otherwise they're like exposed meat waiting to be devoured by a hungry animal, dont'cha know).

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."


Volume 1, Book 9, Number 493:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annual prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet."


Volume 1, Book 9, Number 498:

Narrated 'Aisha:

It is not good that you people have made us (women) equal to dogs and donkeys. No doubt I saw Allah's Apostle praying while I used to lie between him and the Qibla and when he wanted to prostrate, he pushed my legs and I withdrew them.


What is also interesting is that the prophet's wives were not allowed to marry after the prophet's death - he was already an old man when he became a statutory rapist and took two or three girls as his wives. Too bad for them that they were not allowed to marry again seeing as how young they were (especially Aisha, who was only eighteen at the time of the prophet's death) and had to live the rest of their lives behind curtains.

On a lighter note, you could say a woman marrying the prophet literally meant 'curtains' for her!

event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
Good work eh - keep it up.

It is very encouraging to hear about Muslim women challenging some of the views held by current day Mullahs.

You could also have pointed out that the Prophet's , pbuh, first wife was a successful businesswoman and much richer than him. His youngest wife Aisha actually led an army into war against the Khalifa of the time - so much for staying behind a curtain (and so much for the Saudi law that women shouldn't drive!)

The women shouldn't give up fighting for their rights as they see it - certainly they should take courage from some Christian churches who allow women to preach, for example, even though the biggest grouping - the catholics - still maintain that the Bible doesn't allow this. So perhaps over time, things will change.

What is great though, is that these debates are taking place within Islam.

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Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
- so much for staying behind a curtain (and so much for the Saudi law that women shouldn't drive!)


So much for your knowledge of history. Aisha traveled in a cloth/curtain covered howdah during the battle of the camel (as well as everywhere else she traveled in fact). During the battle, an errant arrow from Ali's forces managed to pierce the curtains separating her from the outside world and strike her in the arm. Her brother, I believe, was the one to pull the arrow out - although he died, so we can rejoice at his death as the Koran instructs us to. :bounce:

So, no, Aisha was not 'driving' any camels herself and she was always accompanied by male companions just as it is in Saudi Arabia today. Further, Aisha was indeed behind curtains even when she traveled as discussed already. That's how her entourage was able to take off without her, triggering the event where rumors began that she had an affair with a Muslim soldier (which could very well have been true).

Now what else are you pontificating about? Something about a woman walking in front of a Muslim man and annulling his prayer?
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
As I said, I'm glad you're raising the points that are being debated within Islam.

I didn't say that Aisha did not travel in a litter on a camel - but that she headed up an army into battle. So much for not participating in society or being separated from men - she headed up an army and did this whilst maintaining a level of modesty befitting a queen of the time.

'Staying behind a curtain' is usually taken to mean keeping oneself away from society - Aisha leading an army and giving verbal directions during the battle is hardly a sign that Muslim women should isolate themselves from society. However, it does illustrate that women can and should contribute - and can do so without compromising modesty in dress.

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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
I didn't say that Aisha did not travel in a litter on a camel


Cool - so you agree with me that there is nothing unIslamic about Saudi Arabia's ban on female drivers - in fact, Saudi Arabia is totally in line with the tradition of the early Muslims by requiring that women who venture outside the home must always be accompanied by a mahram.

There really is no denying this, as far as I know. But hopefully you'll respond with facts rather than the usual substanceless paragraphs.

As for your other point, I'm not sure if I'm convinced that literally leading a life behind a sheet is healthy participation in society. It's interesting that you would characterize such an extreme and, quite frankly, backwards lifestyle as 'staying modest'. Is that your definition of modesty (and you wonder why I think you have a few screws loose)???

But hey, I can totally understand the need for you to use these types of terms (such as claiming massacres are 'clement punishment' for the mass execution of hundreds of unarmed villagers - both young and old) to soften the reality of the situation. Admittedly, it does not require much thought, but it's a good 'spin' tactic that politicians/lawyers often use. Perhaps you were in law school but flunked out cuz of your reading comprehension issues?
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
Eh, why should muslim woman tear down the wall?
I know we are all used to free s.e.x., seduction, mingling etc. in the beaches, streets, offices, pubs, magazines, TV's. i mean just about everywhere in non-islamic countries...If you ask me which way is less of an animal than I would definitly say the islamic way.. far less heart break, let down feeling, betrayel, jealousy, divorce, desire, adultery, show off and sex appeal , dangerous and evil thoughts.


The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

If we look at every verse of the Qur’ân in search of a direct statement prohibiting a child from beating his parents, we will never find it. It is not there. However, the Qur’ân says: “Do not even say to them ‘uff’.” Can any rational person, after hearing this verse, claim that it is permissible for a son to beat up his mother and father?

Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments. Can anyone, after considering these and so many other rulings, assume that women and men are allowed to freely mingle and mix with one another?

The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. This would leave countless matters of life without an Islamic legal ruling. This would strip Islamic Law of one of its greatest qualities, which is its relevance to all times and circumstances.

It is absolutely clear from the texts that Islam does not allow men and women to meet each other whenever and however they like. It has placed clear regulations and restrictions upon such behavior and has defined the limits of interaction between men and women. Moreover, Islam has closed all doors that lead to temptation and promiscuity.

When we consider all of the laws governing the relationship between men and women in Islam, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Islam forbids any mixing between the sexes that might provide even the remotest possibility of temptation. Scholars of Islam throughout history have fully appreciated this fact. We can see it evidenced in the writings of the great jurists:

Al-Sarakhsî writes: “The judge should try women separately from men since people tend to crowd together in the courtroom. It is quite obvious that the mixing together of men and women under such crowded conditions is conducive to temptation and other distasteful consequences.” [al-Mabsût (16/80)]

Al-Nawawî writes: “Ibn al-Mundhir and others maintain that it is a matter of unanimous agreement that women are not obligated to attend the Jumu`ah prayers. However, his argument that this is because it brings about the mixing of women and men is not correct. The attendance of women at the Jumu`ah prayers does not necessarily bring about such mixing since the women stay behind the men.” [al-Majmû` (4/350)]

Al-Nawawî also writes: “One of the vilest innovations, that some ignorant people today are involved in, is the habit of lighting candles on Mount `Arafah on the ninth night. This behavior is gravely misguided and is full of improper goings-on such as the mixing of men and women.” [al-Majmû`: (8/140)]

In the law book entitled al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî, there is a discussion of when it is permissible to refuse an invitation to a wedding party. It says: “An invitation may be refused if there is any clear wrongdoing at the party, like the mixing of men and women.” [al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî (2/322)]

When scholars warn against the free mixing of men and women, they are not talking about the mere presence of men and women together in the same place. This is something that is definitely not prohibited by Islamic Law. Men and women gathered in the same place at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the mosque and in the marketplace. They walked down the same roads and public thoroughfares.

The mere presence of men and women in the same area is not a great cause for temptation. It would be wrong to treat this as unlawful mixing, since the reason for prohibiting free mixing does not exist in such circumstances. If someone were to prohibit men and women from frequenting the same public places under the pretext of preventing temptation, this would be taking matters to an extreme and imposing a restriction that is unduly severe. Such a policy is, moreover, unnatural and would impose great hardships on people’s lives.

At the same time, some circumstances are indisputably cases of unlawful mixing. This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact. Equally unlawful would be any occasion where unrelated women and men are seated next to one another. Under these circumstances, desires are kindled and temptations are greater and regrettable things happen, as is seen time and again in co-ed schools and mixed social events.

The same can be said for any repeated acquaintance between men and women. Repeated meetings break down the barriers between men and women and allow a relationship to develop between them.

We cannot compare situations like these to the general presence of men and women at shops and other open public places, especially when women are accompanied by their family. In such cases, there is no intimacy, no crowding, and no reason for suspicion. Preventing women from public places frequented by men in order to prevent temptation would be taking things to an extreme.

A woman is commanded in Islam not to come too close to men. She is not, however, prohibited from going to places where men are present as long as she does not approach them or place herself in a position where she is alone with them.

There can be no doubt that preventative legislation is an important part of Islamic Law. There are numerous rulings in Islam that are preventative in nature. However, this does not mean that we can legislate against every remote possibility of wrongdoing that we can think of. Doing so would be a violation of Islam’s tolerance and magnanimity and its ease of application. It would place too great a burden upon the believers.

People might differ as to the degree of mixing that is prohibited. We can, nonetheless, get a good approximation of proper limits by reviewing the laws of Islam that govern the relationship between men and women. The sacred texts provides ample evidence about how and when men and women can meet, how women should dress and conduct themselves when they go outside, and many other pertinent matters. It is impossible for free mixing between men and women to occur if Islamic Law is properly observed.

The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”
A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”
The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

Ibn Daqîq al-`Îd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy. Al-Albânî classifies it as a good hadîth in Ghâyah al-Marâm (no. 403).]

4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `Îd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission. Al-Albânî says: “This hadîth is authentic according to the conditions set down by Bukhârî and Muslim.”]

Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `Â’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `Â’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

One of `Âishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

`Âishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

There are two things that this shows us. First, `Â’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

Source: http://www.islamtoday.com/


Don't forget to read this link either...
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/ ... adawi.html
Berrin
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
Seems that Islam considers men as animals who cannot control themselves when they see a woman. I guess it takes one to know one, like:

Berrin wrote: The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”
A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”
The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
Isn't that so true by science...I cannot see how else we can multiply so much in numbers...
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 20, 2010
I just found out who is on the hit list of Iran's bombs! :mrgreen:
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:Seems that Islam considers men as animals who cannot control themselves when they see a woman.


I thought that was how all advertisers thought of men - hence why Pirelli calendars seem to feature more women rather than tyres! ;)

I understand your misconception though FD, it probably stems from not reading the Quran but believing eh-oh's favourite web sites.

Had you read the Quranic commands you would have found that God commands men and women to guard their chastity and to guard their gazes. Therefore the onus is on men also not to look, not just on the women to cover up when they go out into society and participate fully.

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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
event horizon wrote:
Cool - so you agree with me that there is nothing unIslamic about Saudi Arabia's ban on female drivers


Thanks for including me in your delusions yet again.

Perhaps you can explain to the Saudis that they are wrong to consider lifting this ban then - as it is clearly 'Islamic' according to sheik eh-oh. :mrgreen:

But let's be clear, no I don't agree with you - I agree with the scholars and women etc who all say it is not Islamic. It's just a weird law the Wahabbis in Saudi dreamt up all by themselves. Hence why they have said they would lift it (but I guess this news eluded you).

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Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
Thanks for including me in your delusions yet again.


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Perhaps you can explain to the Saudis that they are wrong to consider lifting this ban then - as it is clearly 'Islamic' according to sheik eh-oh.


No problem - I'll simply refer them to the fact that women would not travel alone without a mahram during Muhammad's time.

I agree with the scholars and women etc who all say it is not Islamic.


Really, it's not Islamic to have male relatives follow women around wherever they go? Thanks for the clarification, sheik.
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
Oh, and even though I've posted this before, I encourage the wannabe sheiks of this thread to read Berrin's article. There is definitely strong evidence that it is better if women and men do not worship in the same room - but my argument against it was more pragmatic.

Why should women be allowed to worship in the same room if a) wearing perfume is considered adultery, b) talking softly is seduction and c) walking in front of men praying annuls their prayers?
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
Why should women be allowed to worship in the same room if a) wearing perfume is considered adultery, b) talking softly is seduction and c) walking in front of men praying annuls their prayers?


Event Horizon, note these are commands of a man who was married to a woman much older than him for many years because of her wealth! afther her death he started marrying all kinds of women, like a hungry who just found some food, so what do u expect?
melika969
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 21, 2010
Really, it's not Islamic to have male relatives follow women around wherever they go?

No,primarily it's the job of the wall not the male..i.e as in shopping centres

wearing perfume is considered adultery..
Ja if only it didn't send signals to male brain..(I would dread to think of poor woman stay in male dreams at night, or male blaming his own wife being not as attractive and seductive as the purfumed one)...

talking softly is seduction

Absolutely..you wanna know how it starts and ends, well then ask your girlfriend for performance.
Infact just reading the romance section of DF will teach you how..

walking in front of men praying annuls their prayers?

walking in front of women praying annuls their prayers?

Don't ask me how and why..remember what the author says.."relevance to all times and circumstances".
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 22, 2010
No,primarily it's the job of the wall not the male..i.e as in shopping centres


I don't know, I've never been to Saudi Arabia. I guess with exceptions where men are not permitted - such as female bathrooms, schools, shops, eating areas, etc, I was under the impression that women must be accompanied by a mahram.

Shafique seemed to disagree with what I previously said, and I asked him how having mahrams was unIslamic.

wearing perfume is considered adultery..


Only if men smell it - I'm assuming. That would also be a benefit to having segregated worship rooms. There's also the practical reason that many women would probably not enjoy sitting in the very back of a room (after the men and children) to hear the sermon/prostrate/pray than attending their own room where they could choose to sit up front.

Shafique seems to have a problem with this. Go figure.

walking in front of women praying annuls their prayers?


No, sorry if you misunderstood me. I said that women walking in front of a man praying annuls his prayer. That's why I think it makes sense to segregate worship in Mosques between men and women (among the other reasons listed).
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Perhaps shafique can answer my question on how having mahrams is unIslamic.

(He can also get around to answering my other questions - such as his opinion of Mirza Ahmad, find some articles written on the oppression Kurds face by non-Kurdish Muslim authors, etc., etc.)
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Simple, God does not say anywhere in the Quran that women can't drive and the fact Aisha led an army into war demolishes your view that the Saudi laws are Islamic.

The very fact the Saudis have said they would consider reformation and abolishing said law (and the fact no other Islamic country in history has enacted such a law) shows it isn't Islamic.

QED.

Now - I wonder if we'll ever get an answer to Rapture, who killed Jesus according to the Bible, etc. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Simple, God does not say anywhere in the Quran that women can't drive and the fact Aisha led an army into war demolishes your view that the Saudi laws are Islamic.


God doesn't say a lot of things (if anything at all) in the Koran - so Muslims must refer to sources outside of the Koran to properly implement *most* of Islamic law.

It's a fact that Muslim women during and after the time of Muhammad were not permitted to travel by themselves without the escort of a male relative/husband (you haven't commented on this fact, so I'll assume you agree with it).

In my view, therefore, women should be able to drive - but only if they are accompanied by a mahram.

Do you disagree? If you do, could you base it on past precedent?

Also, let me know if you've read Berrin's article. I agree that women should not worship in the same room as men. To me, the reasons are obvious, but what do you think?
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
I agree that you share some strange ideas with some of the fringes of Islamic thinking - but as I stated in my previous reply, the injunction stopping women driving is not Islamic. If it was, then the Saudis would not consider changing the law.

Ergo, not all Saudi laws are based on Islamic shariah - some are just misogynistic power plays. Pretty much like European laws before the 20th century were anti-women - the medieval minded mullahs have a lot in common with medieval Europeans who used scripture to control people and stay in power.

It was wrong then, and the Europeans eventually saw the light and reformed - the Saudis may yet allow women to drive etc. Therefore, it is encouraging to see women from within Islam having their voices heard.

Thanks again for highlighting the subject - but it is bizare that you're arguing that the Mullahs are correct. Perhaps that is why Berrin thinks you're an undercover Muslim! ;)

As for women worshipping in the same room as men - they did exactly this during the time of the prophet - they just were behind the men. This is common sense - when one takes into account that worshippers prostrate and women would not like to present the view of their bottoms sticking up in the air to all and sundry!

(To this day, women do pray in the same room as men where there aren't facilities for a separation via a curtain or wall or another room/hall)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Hey - I'm agreeing with you. I said that women should be able to drive if they have a male companion escorting them around, but otherwise, they should not be permitted to drive by themselves or without a mahram.

Don't you agree?
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Nope, I think women should be able to drive without a Mahram - my family seem to be able to do this without any problems!

Are you sure you're not an undercover Wahabi? :shock:

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Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 23, 2010
Hey, I think Muslims should take the Koran seriously when it says to follow the Sunnah of Muhammad - that includes everything Muhammad approved (expressed either verbally to others or through his actions) or did not approve of himself if he was present at the time.

To me, there is no argument that women during the prophet's time, and after, were required to travel along with a mahram. It stands to reason then, that in Islam, women are to be chauffeured around because they are too weak/delicate to function in society on their own (for instance, a woman is too dumb to give testimony on her own, so she needs another woman to verify what she says in court).

But hey, I'm glad you backed up your quaint belief with ahadith, views from scholars, etc.
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 24, 2010
Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible for a woman to travel without a mahram, whether she is travelling to do an act of worship such as Hajj or visiting her parents in order to honour them and be kind to them, or travelling for permissible purposes such as going on vacation etc. The evidence for that is as follows:

1 – The general meaning of the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “No woman should travel unless she has a mahram with her, and no man should enter upon her unless her mahram is present.” A man stood up and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, my wife has gone out for Hajj, and I want to go out with such and such an army.” He said: “Go and do Hajj with your wife.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1862.

Muslim (1339) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible for a woman who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel one day’s distance without a mahram.” There are many ahaadeeth which forbid a woman to travel without a mahram; they are general in meaning and apply to all kinds of travel.

2 – It is well known that travel involves exhaustion and difficulty. Because of her weakness, a woman needs someone to help her and look after her. Things may happen to her that make her panic and act out of character if there is no mahram present. This is well known nowadays when there are so many car accidents and other kinds of transportation accidents. Moreover, travelling alone exposes her to temptation, especially since there is so much corruption. Men who do not fear Allaah may sit neat her, and haraam actions may become attractive to her. Similarly if she is travelling alone in her car, she is exposed to other kinds of danger, if the car breaks down or if evil people conspire against her, and so on. It is perfectly wise that she should be accompanied by a mahram when travelling, because the purpose behind the mahram’s presence is to protect her and look after her, especially if something bad happens. Travel exposes her to such things regardless of how long it takes.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The point is that whatever is known as travelling, women are forbidden to travel without a husband or a mahram.

The Standing Committee was asked whether it is permissible for a woman to travel to Hajj without a mahram. They replied as follows: It is not permissible for a woman to travel for Hajj or for any other purpose without a mahram.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 11/97

Thus it should be clear that Islam is the foremost system when it comes to protecting women and taking care of them, and respecting and honoring them, and regarding them as precious jewels that must be guarded against evil.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/47029
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 24, 2010
Sheikh eh-oh has given his fatwa!

Interesting how he chooses to ignore what God says in the Quran when it suits him! I guess that comes from the practice of denying what the Bible says on many subjects.

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Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 24, 2010
Why don't you follow the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad and require that your wife travel around with a mahram?
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 24, 2010
Eh what's it like being a novice muslim? :wink:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503546726
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 24, 2010
Perhaps he's just confused Berrin - on the one hand fantasising about Afghan boys and on the other fantasising about women in harems! ;)

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Shafique
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 25, 2010
Hey, I'm simply agreeing with Muhammad that women are too dumb to travel on their own and need their husband's permission to travel somewhere (mind you, a wife does *not* need to ask her husband if she can go to middle school *every* time she leaves, but he still must originally authorize it). Similarly, if his wife travels to somewhere close by that she has not gone before, she must first obtain his permission.
event horizon
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Re: Muslim Women to Mosque: Tear Down this Wall Feb 25, 2010
We are all aware of your various fantasies - however it is funny that you are now pronoucing fatwas - perhaps we should call you Sheikh eh-oh from now on?

I'll stick to the fact that God doesn't say in the Quran that women shouldn't drive and that the Saudis are talking about repealing this law. I guess you'll advise them that they will be contravening God's law if they do that. Good luck with that - let us know how you get along dear ShEikH.

Cheers,
Shafique
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