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47:4-6. These verses were revealed shortly after the verses 22:39-40 given above lifting the ban on armed resistance against the invaders and aggressors.

Another contradiction found in the Koran by Berrin. Thanks berrin!

As I said before, I agree with you on this point - God does indeed contradict your interpretations of the verses in question.

shafique wrote:Hey, I just wonder how much you'd write if I didn't agree with your intial post!

As it is, I'm happy to thank you again for pointing out that your quaint Orientalist views of a militant Islam is contradicted by the verses you quoted in your initial post.

See, it is good to agree!

As for what God says in Berrin's quote - you may want to look up what 'contradiction' means - and then go back and look at what the complimentary verses say.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, you're right, the two passages in the Koran berrin mentions 'abrogate' each other. Perhaps that's not a contradiction....

Anyways, happy to address the contradictions already provided.

Another contradiction!

And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.

Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.

Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.

If any of your women be guilty of whoredom, then bring four witnesses against them from among yourselves; and if they bear witness to the fact, shut them up within their houses till death release them, or God make some way for them.

If any of your women be guilty of whoredom, produce four witnesses from among you against them, and if they bear witness [against them], imprison them in [separate] apartments until death release them, or God affordeth them a way [to escape].

Should these women be lashed, as per another verse, or confined/imprisoned in their father's or husband's home until their death?

Nope, close but no cigar.

Just look at the complimentary verses and you'll see that no verse has been abrogated. If you don't believe, quote the two (or more) verses and show which verse no longer applies. If it still has meaning and hasn't been superseded by the other verse - then it hasn't been abrogated.

Again, look up 'complimentary' and 'contradictory' so you know the difference.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ah, I see you've decided to go on the offensive rather than answer the issue about your belief that Jews killed Jesus because that is what the Bible says (and that this belief is not anti-semitic)

Anyway, the post above from me was in response to your previous post about abrogation.

As to you last post - where's the contradiction? It is not uncommon for just legal systems to have a range of punishments for a particular crime - it's actually just common sense, that there are degrees of a crime and there should be different punishments depending on the severity.

I thought you believed in forgiveness as well as punishment? Is it a contradiction to allow both in a justice system?

(oh, and in future, you should give verse references - otherwise it looks like you don't know what you're talking about and are just copy pasting from your I-spy-book-of-orientalist-Islam)

It appears to me that you've just pasted different translations of the SAME verse - please tell me that this just a joke and you didn't actually think they were different verses? (Or perhaps they are different verses???)

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I'm just using your logic on the other thread that Paul was categorical that the Jews killed Jesus.

Ok, so you are saying the passage to confine/imprison women for life who are guilty of adultery is complimentary to the other passage in the Koran that says to lash them?

that there are degrees of a crime and there should be different punishments depending on the severity.

A degree of adultery? Never heard of that. Where does the Koran say that women who commit adultery must do x to get lashed and if they do y and z, they are confined to their homes?

First let us know what verses you quoted above - are they all the same verse, but different translations?

dear oh dear, you appear to be losing it dear boy.

If you think two verses are contradictory, you should post both verses and show that one contradicts the other. Just ensure that you are not posting two complimentary verses.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nope the passages Berrin cited do not compliment each other - they abrogate each other. One 'lifts' the ban the other placed. That's contradictory, not complimentary.

event horizon wrote:A degree of adultery? Never heard of that.

Don't worry, when you're a bit older you'll understand.

If a lady commits one act and is genuinely repentant and won't do it again - should she not be shown mercy as God allows in the Quran?

Should all adulterers suffer the maximum punishment that is in the Bible? You're a bit hard hearted young man.

I hope you are looking up the references to the quotes you gave above and will clarify what verse(s)? you were quoting.

Cheers,
Shafique

If you think a verse abrogates another, just post the two verses and let us see the evidence. It's not hard.

Now, don't forget to tell us where your quotes came from and what verse(s) they are/is

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I'm just pointing out that two different punishments for the same offense is contradictory.

How are Muslims to know whether they should whip an unmarried women guilty of 'whoredom' or imprison her for the rest of her life?

You have a weird definition of contradictions then. May I suggest you look up the meaning of 'alternative' and 'appropriate' in the context of punishments.

Perhaps you are one of those Christians that believe that all adulterers should be forced to divorce - as the NT allows divorce in the case of adultery (although Catholics don't believe in divorce).

I'm glad that you aren't a judge (or have a remote possibility of becoming a judge) - as it appears you'll only have one punishment for any one crime.

Anyway, I guess you're embarrassed by the fact that your cut and paste from your I-spy-book shows that you don't know what you are talking about - did you think all the quotes you gave were from DIFFERENT verses??

Next time you 'think' you've found a contradiction - just paste the two verses and make your argument. Otherwise it appears you are just 'wishing' there are contradictions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Uhm, the verses last quoted were different translations of the same passage. v4:15 says to imprison a woman for the rest of her life if she is found guilty of fornication. This clearly contradicts another verse in the Koran that says to lash a woman if she is found guilty of fornication.

So you admit that you posted multiple translations of the same verse! Did you think they were different verses when you just cut and pasted this???

Anyway, when you take the trouble to paste the two verses, you will see that they are complimentary verses.

I fully understand that you are delaying looking up and posting the verses, as you don't really want to face the fact that there is no contradiction- only a 'belief' that there must be some contradictions in the Quran to match the contradictions we all agree are in the Bible.

So, we have yet another example of 'all mouth, no trousers'.

Cheers,
Shafique

I have no idea what you're now on about - I posted multiple translations of the same verse and said that it contradicts the verse in the Koran which says that women who are fornicators are to be lashed.

Hint: None of the translations I provided said anything about lashing. I recommend that you go back to the last page and confirm that all the verses I posted were eerily similar to each other and the punishment for the crime was exactly the same. (It should have also dawned on you that I posted five or six verses when I was only talking about two verses that contradict each other - but hey, sometimes I forget who I'm talking to here)

In fact, your last response still boggles my mind - let's just say, no one would ever not believe you if you told them you are a 'Muslim'.

Perhaps you were confused and thought the different translations were different verses and were unable to see the contradiction?

The verses in question are 4:15 and 24:2.

One says whipping, the other says confinement. So, which is it?

a) whipping or b) confinement?

a or b.

24:2 - The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.

4:15 - Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.

Ah, young man, you obviously didn't actually read the verses in context did you?

24.2 covers the crime of 'zina' - adultery or fornication - and I'll give the following verse so you see the full range of punishments/forgiveness that God allows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_(Arabic)

4.15 covers a separate action - which is usually translated as 'lewdness'. The word there is faHish. (This covers lewdness and is less than adultery - eg pornography is referred to as faHish).


So, no contradiction - as 4.15 is not talking about the punishment for 'zina' (adultery/fornication) but 'faHish' (lewd behaviour).

Better luck next time.



As promised, here are the verses in context and the correct translation of 4.15:

Let's look at the first - and see what it says about the punishment for wives who commit adultery in the verses after the one you quoted:

Ch24:
2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
3. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
7. And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
10. If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).

Now, let's look at whether 4.15 contradicts the above punishments for ADULTERY:

4.15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.



Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, don't argue with me - I posted multiple translations of v 4:15 showing that women who are to punished, are to be punished for 'adultery' or 'whoredom' or 'fornication'.

I'm not sure how reading the verse in context would have shown that 4:15 actually means 'lewdness' not 'fornication'.

Perhaps you can explain that one.

In any event, it's interesting that the Koran's punishment for 'lewdness' is arguably harsher than the punishment for fornication.

While both are reactionary and barbaric, I think most people would prefer to be whipped than to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

Anyways, I'm happy to move onto the next contradiction (I guess your claim that the Koran offers two different punishments for the same offense didn't even manage to convince yourself).

Cool, you have no answer.

So, God gives two different punishments for two different crimes. Can't see a contradiction there - can you?

I can't be to blame (nor God for that matter) if you chose to overlook the fact that the more reputable translations don't translate 'lewdness' as adultery - as they are different words in Arabic. I'm not sure what you are going on about in terms of 'context' - the Arabic words are 'zina' for adultery in 24.2 and 'faHish' for lewdness in 4.15. The context is to be found in the dictionary meanings of the words.

Let me know when you have another alleged contradiction you want me to clarify.

Cheers,
Shafique