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Yes, it is a known argument that Israel is not allowed to defend itself. Israel is an example for the region when it comes to human rights, democracy and FoS. It is no utopia, but compared to the vile nature of neighboring dictatorships, Israel should be an example. Still people like to be obsessed with Israel and try to delegitimize it wherever and still wonder why there is no peace yet.

I thought we agreed that Israel shouldn't be above the law.

Excuses for Israel acting like a rogue state, doesn't change the fact it is acting like a rogue state. Iran has signed up to international conventions on non-proliferation (NPT), for example - but Israel isn't and has WMD and has invaded its neighbours. Isn't there a logical argument to be made that Israel is a rogue state and a threat to its neighbours?

We agree that Israel is breaking international law by seeking to annex East Jerusalem and Golan, don't we?

That said, I applaud the diplomats who are seeking a negotiated end to the Palestinian conflict and as we are on a new page, here's my list of facts again:

1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

Cheers,
Shafique

Why would Israel be a threat to its neighbours? If its neigbours don't attack, they have nothing to fear. Its the world upside down saying that Israel is not allowed to defend itself and when it does to call it acts of agression.

I am not saying Israel should be above the law. But only focusing on Israel in this matter is sheer hypocricy. Syria and Lebanon are breaking binding resolutions or boldly denounce them. Hezbollah and Hamas break international humantarian law by the day. Syria has a true apartheid regime with a policy of Arabization with Kurds as the victims. Torture in Arab prisons is dayly practice, as is executions of political opponents. Of course you can critizise Israel, but only focusing on Israel while ignoring the rest is hypocricy. Those obsessed with Israel, donot critizise Israel for the right reasons.

Why would Israel be a threat?

It shouldn't . It should abide by international laws and be treated as any other country.

However, it has WMD and has refused to sign NPT. It flaunts international law by annexing land that doesn't belong to it. It has invaded it's neighbours. It currently occupies land belonging to its neighbours (Lebanon and Syria). It is in violation of numerous UN resolutions.

I also note that you are still using the argument that the Arabs are just as bad or worse. I'm not sure there's any court of law or moral opinion that gives this argument any weight.

Israel has its fair share of terrorists - even relgiously motivated terrorists. Just look at those who still venerate Baruch Goldstein's massacre of worshippers at a Holy site. Israel also tells blatant lies when it launches attacks against Palestinians (fact 2).

Therefore, Israel shares all the characteristics of other so-called rogue states, and is in greater violation of international laws than most of them. Iran, for example, hasn't invaded any country in the past few centuries and has signed up to NPT - and is (I guess) violating fewer UN resolutions than Israel.

But as I said, let's not get too side-tracked by Israels crimes. The peace process will be resolved politically (eventually) and we should keep in mind the facts regarding the peace process and not get too distracted by Israeli spin about how they are the victims and the occupied are the aggressors.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It has invaded it's neighbours.

After it has been attacked. I have no problem with a country defending itself against agressors.

shafique wrote:I also note that you are still using the argument that the Arabs are just as bad or worse. I'm not sure there's any court of law or moral opinion that gives this argument any weight.

It is just to show your hypocricy. And in general those who are obesssed with Israel donot care about human rights or international law.

shafique wrote:Israel has its fair share of terrorists - even relgiously motivated terrorists. Just look at those who still venerate Baruch Goldstein's massacre of worshippers at a Holy site.

Those who venerate Goldstein are on the fringe of Israeli society, an extremely small minorty. Palestinians, including its leaders however do consider terrorists, child slayers etc. as hero's. Recently Abbas honoured Dalal. Recently a poll showed the majority of Palestinians think massacring jewish religious students is a good thing....

Excuses, excuses.

You don't disagree that you're trying the argument that Israel's neighbours are also breaking the law etc.

I totally agree that religious terrorists like Baruch Goldstein are a minority in Israel, the point was that Israel has all the characteristics of rogue states it points fingers at, and is actually a worse threat. You are silent on the big issue of WMD - Iraq was invaded over non-existent WMDs, yet Israel actually has them and unjustly imprisons people who bring to the worlds attention the crimes of Israel (I'm thinking of Vanunu).

What must be extremely frustrating for you FD is that the decades of people blindly believing the Israeli spin is over - most now realise that Israel has been lying. Some recognise that Israel is breaking the law and try and excuse it, others take the moral high ground and call a spade a spade.

It is extremely instructive that the facts I keep repeating are causing you so much heart ache - and yet you can't bring yourself to actually provide evidence for some of your objections (notably fact number 2 below which has a separate thread with evidence to back up this claim).

1. Israel has made no concessions in the peace negotiations - it has been all the Palestinians
2. Israel broke the truce and lied about why it was bombing Gaza and killing civilians (by saying Hamas broke the truce)
3. Israel have 78% of the land and Palestinians are settling for 22% - but Israel is reluctant to settle for this and seems to want more - specfically building more illegal colonies in the 22% that is not Israel.
4. Israel is unequivocably breaking international law in East Jerusalem by annexing it.
5. B'tselem say Israel in East Jerusalem is discriminating against the non-Israeli residents.

Cheers,
Shafique

I posted this at the time, but in Jan 09, when analysing the Israeli bombing of Gaza, Avi Shlaim concluded:

This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

• Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

The cap fits.

Cheers,
Shafique

I really fail to see how Israel can be threat, as all it does it defend itself against agressive neighbors seeking its destruction. I also didn't know not signing the NPT is breaking international law.

I have reacted already to your points (more than once), so you can keep on repeating them as many times as you want, my answers can be seen in previous posts. With most I disagree.

Flying Dutchman wrote:So, under the new Netanyahu government only one terrorist master mind was killed during a raid, during which Israeli's tried to capture him alive, but due to resistance it turned out in a gun fight. I fail to see how this contitutes a continuous policy targetted killings and is a obstacle to peace.

(From this thread, January 7th 2010)

If it is shown that Israel did murder the Hamas guy in Dubai - won't this, now, be an obstacle to peace?

When you wrote the above, you were arguing that Israel did not now have a policy of murdering people in other countries any more - and were questioning how this could be an obstacle to peace.

It seems that Avi Shlaim has more evidence now of Israel being a rogue state!

Cheers,
Shafique