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If religion was reduced e.g not allowed to form any part of the law, no buildings, only study on your own allowed.

Would the world be more peaceful?

No, I don't believe the world would be more peaceful without religion.

Shouldn't the question be whether there is any need for any laws or guidance about behaviour at all?

Religion, after all, is only a guidance for how we should live - and encompasses guidance on how to behave unto others.

If everyone abided by the central tenets of all religions, the world would be a better place. Eh-oh's quaint beliefs about Islam, not with standing, no religion advocates violence against others - and therefore I argue that religions do more good than harm (as they give spiritual as well as temporal guidance) - and where religion is misused, it is nothing more than another 'badge' of separateness and therefore is not any different from other badges - such as nationalism or language/culture/race which have all been used to justify attacking others.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:No, I don't believe the world would be more peaceful without religion.

Shouldn't the question be whether there is any need for any laws or guidance about behaviour at all?

Religion, after all, is only a guidance for how we should live - and encompasses guidance on how to behave unto others.

If everyone abided by the central tenets of all religions, the world would be a better place. Eh-oh's quaint beliefs about Islam, not with standing, no religion advocates violence against others - and therefore I argue that religions do more good than harm (as they give spiritual as well as temporal guidance) - and where religion is misused, it is nothing more than another 'badge' of separateness and therefore is not any different from other badges - such as nationalism or language/culture/race which have all been used to justify attacking others.

Cheers,
Shafique

This is not getting at islam as it applies equally to all religions, they have all been twisted by man to hide or justify other desires. Stripping this away surely would show the truth?

I agree - stripping away all the man-made additions to all religions would certainly make the world more peaceful. In my experience there is a strong correlation between man-made additions/interpretations and illogical teachings.

One just needs to look at some of the more funky beliefs - such as Rapture (what eh may or may not believe in) or Occultation (in Shia theology) - and of course those who use religion as an excuse to oppress or kill.

Cheers,
Shafique

One just needs to look at some of the more funky beliefs - such as Rapture (what eh may or may not believe in) or Occultation (in Shia theology) - and of course those who use religion as an excuse to oppress or kill.

and this is how the war between muslims start, Occultation is the most important concept in Shia! If we had Shia people in this forum, There would be some terrors attacking you Shaf, for calling it FUNKY belief!

You're right - occultation is a strongly held belief, but I do indeed find it 'funky' - and it is similar to Rapture in that the Christians who believe this think they will 'vanish' from earth and go into a state similar to the occultation of Shia beliefs.

I've had discussions with some distinguished Shia alims (in person) and the encounters were always courteous and respectful, even though we disagreed on some fundamental points. Occultation and the illogicality of it did come up - but to be fair, I didn't call it 'funky'! That said, I'm sure they would have smiled knowingly and not have been too upset.

I also find some Hindu beliefs 'funky' - eg. the gods couldn't restore a person's head when it was cut off, but instead put an elephant's head on the body, and let's not even get into trinity and transubstatiation of Catholic theology! As Dan Brown puts it - it's a religion that engages in ritual canibalism and praying in front of a Roman instrument of torture!!

However, I will apologise if I've offended anyone - it's meant in jest.

Cheers,
Shafique

i'll rumble a few things...

If religion was reduced e.g not allowed to form any part of the law, no buildings, only study on your own allowed.

What about people who aren’t as much capable/ intelligent enough to study and understand it all- on their own? We have people who say they understand what they read but when you see them in practise the picture is totally diferrent? Why and What do you suggest?

Can we graduate from primary school to universities without any guidance from any teachers at all?

I think what you say would sort of work if we each were programmed to do certain things like animals. i.e. bees are programmed to produce honey, caws for meat and milk, or an apple tree for apples etc.

Some questions are; why God didn’t end his creation after plants, trees and animals but moved onto creating another being called human? Would the creation of universe and earth be meaningful or worth to create without any intellectual existence living in it?

Here is what another muslims said on similar issue..
What is the purpose of Islam? (take it as religion)
A: Islam, is purely and simply the implementation of the Qur’an. And by doing so, you will have guidance. Islam gives purpose and meaning to life. It gives the Muslim an identity and an awareness of his or her position in this vast universe. To know that everything you think, do, and say is serving a purpose, fulfilling an obligation, and pleasing your Creator.

I do not to harm anyone and to try to be a good person, so why do I need to follow a religion, like Islam?
A: "God provides us with the purpose of our existence and if we seek to do good it is the same as seeking to do the will of God. Your belief in God only has value in so far as you live your life according to His purpose for you.
How then do we know what is the will of God? That is where religion comes in. Allah has revealed His will through prophets. To find out what this is you need to study the revelation.
In Islam the core source of that revelation is the Qur'an - I recommend you read it." - Lamaan Ball
Lamaan Ball's website gives answers to several tricky questions at Investigating Islam.

Four main reasons for the revelation of scriptures:
(1) The scripture revealed to a prophet is a point of reference to learn the religion and obligations towards God and fellow human beings. God reveals Himself and explains the purpose of human creation through revealed scriptures.
(2) By referring to it, 'disputes and differences between its followers in matter of religious belief and practice or in matters of social practice could be settled.
(3) The scriptures are meant to keep the religion safe from corruption and deterioration, at least for some time after the death of the prophet. At the present time, the Quran revealed to our Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, is the only scripture to remain safe from corruption.
(4) It is God’s proof against human beings. They are not allowed to oppose or overstep it.
A Muslim firmly believes that divinely revealed books were actually revealed by the Compassionate God to His prophets to guide mankind. The Quran is not the only spoken Word of God, but God also spoke to prophets before Prophet Muhammad.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/36/

Would world be peaceful without a religion?
No. no matter how hard people try, sometimes in their life- you would see them in dispute of each other over certain things, making matters and life worse for themselves.. This is what we saw in the history of mankind when they fell into darkness of humanity, only then prophets and religion reached to their rescue out of their ignorance. When religion is not in the centre of human life we still see the same thing happening today.
Today we undermine religion because of the prosperity and advancement brought by tech and science.. However what we still see is that religion is still in strong hold and plays important role in people’s life, especially amongst the poor, or people under persecution or amongst people not able to benefit from the fruits of tech and science etc.

So who can establish unconditional peace and happiness?
My answer is true believers with knowledge and wisdom. Not wishy-washy ones..

An example on extreme ends..
Two models of humans…
1) We have one strict disbeliever(never believes in God and eternal life)for him life is all about what he has and holds here, once his life is finished, its all finished..
2) The other one is strict believer (who doesn’t as much care about what he has and holds here.. believes in God and his religion, and follows orders of God , prepares himself for his place in the eternal life accordingly..
3) A gangster with a gun in his hand, ready to shoot behind the 1 and 2
4) 2 unknown innocent man standing before 1 and 2

1 and 2 only able to kill 4..
3, only kills 1 or 2 or both..

The scenario is something like this…
None of them knows anything about each other, but all knows that the gangster is serious, he means to kill instantly upon his order.
The gangster has a problem with 4 but wants 1 and 2 do the job instead…

Which one would never ever do the killing and why?

If you can see the fine line between belief and disbelief and trust in God here, then you would also see why we need true believers and religion and therefore the reason why God makes himself known to us and the importance of belief religion brings into human life…

"Would world be peaceful without a religion?
No. no matter how hard people try, sometimes in their life- you would see them in dispute of each other over certain things, making matters and life worse for themselves.. This is what we saw in the history of mankind when they fell into darkness of humanity, only then prophets and religion reached to their rescue out of their ignorance. When religion is not in the centre of human life we still see the same thing happening today."

This is not strictly true as pretty much all (even communism was being used almost as a religion e.g pol pot) the great massacres and wars in the world have been religiously motivated.

Im not saying remove religion completly, just reduce its influence to personal only.

Why does god need buildings/land?

Why does he need people to fight for something he created?

I have a problem with the teachers Berrin as supposadly the torah/quaran/bible all written clearly there seem to be SO much and very different interpretation.

Roadtester wrote:Im not saying remove religion completly, just reduce its influence to personal only.

I have a lot of sympathy for this view.

Clerics (history shows us) don't make the best polticians, and politicians make lousy clerics. The Islamic principle is that the best person for any job should be chosen to do it - and traditionally this is how the leaders were chosen. The ones to lead the prayers etc are the most righteous from among the congregation - not the most powerful - and as originally formulated, there is no clergy as such in Islam.

I still argue that shariah is as good a basis to base a state's law as any other system of values, but then this is where church and state can over-lap. But a legistlative or judicial body is still made up of humans with differing opinions on subjects - which is no different from all shariah boards around the world.

One day, I may come off this fence ..

Cheers,
Shafique

This is not strictly true as pretty much all (even communism was being used almost as a religion e.g pol pot)

As far as I am concerned nothing can be called a religion unless it is from divine source.ie.God..So it leaves us with three monotheistic religion…,the burden to search and find the right path and to decide on the number of Gods is up to the each individual.

the great massacres and wars in the world have been religiously motivated.

None of the monotheistic religions gives right to kill or wipe out anyone or any nation without acceptable and justified reason as outlined and ordained by God, but when religion is used for political and economic interests then that’s where the corruption and destruction starts, equally anyone uses religion to justify these interests will inevitably loose control and be erased from power and influence from earth in time…

A muslim who is born to muslim parents is muslim literally by label but being a true master believer is another issue all together..

Im not saying remove religion completely; just reduce its influence to personal only.

My belief is that if you reduce it to personal level, most people will eventually loose interest in religion as prosperity leads to some sort of vain desires, something rather in opposite direction of what religion expects people to behave. i.e desire to get rich quicker therefore exploiting etc. (So there must be a way to balance life and progression in between but how?)
I believe if an islamic state bans sharia law then as the time goes by what you will see is that new generations with wealth will get bias and against practising pious muslims, if these bias, disbelieving Muslims reach to majority or in deciding positions,then they will start to ban the rights of believing and practising muslims...i.e. dress code of Muslim women at work, praying during work hours etc.

One should try to be a muslim woman amongst the elites in France and especially in Turkey, I am not even talking about discrimination against practising muslim men amongst them….., then you will see how they demonise you, preventing and striping all of your titles and status of being a good productive citizen.

Whereas you’re not meant to see this on administrative levels in sharia countries, a sharia ruled country would ban explicit dress codes and manners in public in order to create crime and assault free environment as ordained by God to protect the life and honour of other individuals.

Why does god need buildings/land?

You should expand on this for better judgement…

Why does he need people to fight for something he created?

Who says that he wants people to fight for something he created? Check out on that person if he is a true knowledged believer..the deceptive perception is due to ignorant muslim people that don’t know what God actually says or listens to what his prophets practised and thought to mankind, that’s why I am saying we need true wise believers increased in numbers all around the world..

I have a problem with the teachers Berrin as supposedly the torah/quaran/bible all written clearly there seem to be SO much and very different interpretation.

Why don’t you make your own comparable study first…,if you get stuck reading from one source than jump into another to see how they look at the same issue from another perspective, then you can try to establish truth as far as your wisdom allows you.., if still not sure then share your toughts and ask questions to experts until your mind is clear of doubts..

Any yes, teachers differentiate amongst themselves regarding their teaching methods and interpretations. The winners are always the ones get it right at first. But this doesn’t always come easy, often takes a few trials and errors, as in all other areas of expertise. i.e medicine, engineering etc.