80 Year Old Saudi Marries 11 Year Old Girl

Topic locked
  • Reply
80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
News of a Saudi octogenarian marrying an eleven-year-old girl has outraged human rights activists amid calls on the government to regulate the marriage of underage girls, local media reported Saturday.

The Saudi National Human Rights Commission formed a committee to investigate the marriage, which activists consider a flagrant violation of human and children rights, the Saudi newspaper al-Riyadh said.

The father, who took 85,000 riyals (more than $22,000) in dowry, defended his decision to marry off his 11-year-old daughter even though his wife vehemently objected.

"I don't care about her age," he told the paper. "Her health and her body build make her fit for marriage. I also don't care what her mother thinks."

The father added that marriage at such an early age has been a custom in the Saudi society for a very long time and that he saw no reason why it should be a problem now.

"This is a very old custom and there is nothing wrong with it whether religiously or socially."

On the other hand, the groom said that the father, who is also his cousin, was the one who offered him his daughter and that the mother was totally against the marriage.

"He told me 'I have a girl and she will marry no one but you,'" the groom told the paper. "So, we got the witnesses and summoned the registrar. I paid the dowry and we held the ceremony and that was it. "

The groom expressed his surprise at how the media leveled harsh criticism against him and his family for marrying the girl.

"It is very simple. We didn’t do anything wrong. It is a valid contract that meets all the conditions for marriage? What's the point of all this fuss?"

The groom has three other wives, all much younger, and they all have kids.

As for the bride, she just called for help as she burst into tears.

"Save me. I don't want him," she cried.


Love at first oggle.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/01/17/97613.html

event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
The sad legacy of pedophilia.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
All credit is due to the mother and the authorities for looking into this.

Shocking and funny that the 'groom' wonders what all the fuss is about! :shock:


Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
Hemm, I don’t know why this incident reminds by some perverts from Brits and German who travel to Philippine and Thailand yearly, for the purpose to molest poor kids. :shock:
Humbleman
Dubai forums Addict
Posts: 244

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
Humbleman wrote:Hemm, I don’t know why this incident reminds by some perverts from Brits and German who travel to Philippine and Thailand yearly, for the purpose to molest poor kids. :shock:


Pervert is the right word. What the Saudi man did is well within the sharia isn't it? Pedophilia and incest. Those Brits and Germans are presecuted when caught, it is not socially acceptable.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
I can go on and on about hundreds of incest cases in the West, not to mention the rape and sexual abuse of infant etc etc, but I just don’t wanna go down that road, as I believe that some humans are evil and imperfect in many aspects, whether in the West, or East.

I think am quiet familiar about the Arab world than you do, and I can confidently say that this type of case is frown upon and very rare in the Arab world. Having said that, the Arab world ain’t perfect, because they are descendant of imperfect human beings.

Mate, if you wanna educate yourself on what is okay and what isn’t in Islam, I suggest you read the Quran instead of making arbitrary judgment. :)
Humbleman
Dubai forums Addict
Posts: 244

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
Humbleman wrote:I can go on and on about hundreds of incest cases in the West, not to mention the rape and sexual abuse of infant etc etc, but I just don’t wanna go down that road, as I believe that some humans are evil and imperfect in many aspects, whether in the West, or East.


Sure you can, difference is that those cases are against the law. I cannot see anything in the OP that the case in question is against the law. Pedophilia is withing the sharia isn't it?

Humbleman wrote:I think am quiet familiar about the Arab world than you do, and I can confidently say that this type of case is frown upon and very rare in the Arab world.


Glad to see that old men foundling with doll playing little girls is frowned upon

Humbleman wrote:Mate, if you wanna educate yourself on what is okay and what isn’t in Islam, I suggest you read the Quran instead of making arbitrary judgment. :)


Sounds very evasive. AFAIK this according to the sharia.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
Well, given the Saudi authorities are looking into the case, I guess it is not as clear cut as FD thinks.

Also, whilst something may be within the law it may still be wrong - much like the arguments that Israel isn't 'technically' occupying any territory! ;)

Shariah does not specify a minimum age for marriage, but requires that both parties give their informed consent. From the article, I can't see the evidence for the girl consenting to the marriage - and I'm also encouraged that the mother's objections are being reported (as they should).

It is funny at how any perversion by a Muslim is jumped on and an attempt to link it to Islam or the Prophet, pbuh, is made. The Islamophobes must really, really hate Islam. By contrast, critics of Israel are at pains to criticise Israeli crimes and not the religion or all the people of Israel (many of whom also protest against Israeli crimes). Interesting that.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
shafique wrote:Shariah does not specify a minimum age for marriage


Disgusting, isn't it?

shafique wrote:It is funny at how any perversion by a Muslim is jumped on and an attempt to link it to Islam or the Prophet, pbuh, is made.


Muslims see Muhammed as the ultimate examplar and he sat examples of pedophilia and incest still practiced in the Muslim world.

shafique wrote:The Islamophobes must really, really hate Islam.


I wouldn't call people having problems with pedophilia as islamophobes. No surprises that you try to defend pedophilia. Disgusting.

shafique wrote:By contrast, critics of Israel are at pains to criticise Israeli crimes and not the religion or all the people of Israel (many of whom also protest against Israeli crimes).


I am truly shocked that you bring in Israel into this thread. Shocked I tell ya. But hey Humbleman also needs British and German perverts who molest little girls to justify sharia.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
By contrast I wasn't shocked at your thinly veiled attempts to smear Islam and the Prophet, (well, not veiled any more).

It is interesting that you seem to hold Israel with something akin to religious values - jumping to its defence even when it is breaking laws.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 19, 2010
It is funny at how any perversion by a Muslim is jumped on and an attempt to link it to Islam or the Prophet, pbuh, is made. The Islamophobes must really, really hate Islam.


Do you have any evidence that the groom, who linked his marriage to a little girl (probably still playing with dolls) to Islam and the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad and Caliph Umar, is an Islamophobe?

"This is a very old custom and there is nothing wrong with it whether religiously or socially."

I agree with the groom that old men, who are already married with other (young) women, marrying little girls is perfectly acceptable with Islam. Don't you?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 20, 2010
Thanks for confirming that you posted the story to illustrate your Islamophobia (not that it was ever in doubt).

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 20, 2010
Do you see any thing wrong with an old geezer marrying a little girl who is still playing with her dolls?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 20, 2010
This dude - absolutely.

What did I tell you about taking the time and reading what people post!

The Saudi authorities and the mother also have objections, so why do you think that the old guy is a better Muslim than the mother and the authorities that are looking into the matter? If it was clearly something that Islam encouraged - then surely the mother and authorities would not object.

But as I said, thanks for clarifying that your objective was to reinforce your Islamophobia - those not familiar with your posts may not have realised this straight away.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 20, 2010
The Quran bans marriage before puberty and rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.(Does not specify age limit in this case, as puberty and maturity depends on each individuals circumstances and environment for personal development.(Remember in the old days a young man as much as 16/18 could lead an army and run goverment/country etc. Just becouse we don't see it these days, doesn't mean that it cannot ever happen again..)

Therefore for marriage of a young male and female, there should be consensus between the families(community) and sharia law to decide on the eligibility of the young for such marriage and its responsibilities.

What's is the point of denying actual reality when this fact itself is also prevailing even in the west..Despite parents objection, Young teenage adults go out of their way to have secret intimacy and get pregnant etc.

I think everyone should be sensible here rather than putting blame on something. I think though a lot of the rejections come becouse of the mtyhs over the marriage of our prophet in islam..
Here it's explained...

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?
The Ancient Myth Exposed
by T.O. Shanavas

A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.

However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
610 CE: First revelation
610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.

© 2001 Minaret

Extracted 09/06/02 from The Minaret
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=935
Berrin
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1390

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 20, 2010
berrin wrote:The Quran bans marriage before puberty and rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.


I didn't see where the Koran bans marriage to little girls in the article you copy/pasted (in fact, my reading of the Koran allows marriage between Muslim men and pre-pubescent children). But, could you tell me how many wives the Koran allows for a husband to have and how many wives Muhammad had? Let's see if your argument of 'it's not in the Koran' first passes the smell test. I also understand the issue of concubinage is a different story altogether - Ali had four wives but somewhere around 16 concubines at the time of his death.

shafique wrote:The Saudi authorities and the mother also have objections, so why do you think that the old guy is a better Muslim than the mother and the authorities that are looking into the matter? If it was clearly something that Islam encouraged - then surely the mother and authorities would not object.


Well, Abu Bakr had objections that his little girl would be married off to an old man (who already had numerous wives) at such an young age.

That makes for an interesting conversation the two must have had:

Abu Bakr: So, my little girl, Aisha, just turned six today. I bought her a doll for her birthday

Muhammad: Six? Six! I hope you marry her off soon. If she's not married by age seven, she's already over the hill.

Abu Bakr: Oh, Muhammad, are you sure about that?

Muhammad: Oh yeah, the Medinans marry their little girls off at early ages. It's the 'norm' here.

Abu Bakr: But she's only six. I think it would be best to wait until she can learn how to sew or saddle a camel.

Muhammad: Who's the Prophet? Who's the Prophet?

Abu Bakr: You...you are.

Muhammad: Yeah, I so am the Prophet.
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 21, 2010
I see that eh didn't read or understood Berrins post which disputes the one narration of the age of Aisha.

I suspected he might faint when he saw the length and detail of the post.

:albino:

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 21, 2010
I didn't see where the Koran bans marriage to little girls in the article you copy/pasted (in fact, my reading of the Koran allows marriage between Muslim men and pre-pubescent children). But, could you tell me how many wives the Koran allows for a husband to have and how many wives Muhammad had? Let's see if your argument of 'it's not in the Koran' first passes the smell test. I also understand the issue of concubinage is a different story altogether - Ali had four wives but somewhere around 16 concubines at the time of his death.

Eh-oh my brother, Do you believe that God exist? and that his prophets wouldn't commit a single wrong/error on purpose and that they are not allowed to do or teach anything false without God's guidance and permission. Please confirm this and if you believe that God exist?
I am beginning to believe that you're not aware- you are an atheist fighting yourself without a just reason!.
Could you also please explain to me what you undertand from prophethood? i.e. what is the difference between an ordinary person and a chosen prophet? Why was there a need for a prophet? and the religions (law of life)brought through them?

Why don't you yourself ask the uncle google, he is full with answers to your questions...But before that tell me how old you are, so that I can sympathize with you...

Here I saved you some harsh work...

About Concubines:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... boutIslamE

Why Did Muhammad Have So Many Wives? (Q&A)
Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... z0dFNXHxZA

Children must reach ashuddah (full strength and growth) and adulthood:(quran verses)
http://www.answering-christianity.com/m ... rriage.htm

And there are many other web sites for marriage according to Quran and Sunnah...
Berrin
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1390

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 21, 2010
Berrin, do you see something wrong with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) marrying little Ayesha and consummating their marriage when she was only nine years old?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 21, 2010
You still haven't answered my questions!

Guidlines for getting married as young adults are established in quran.. I trust in God and prophethood of all his prophets, I don't distinguish between one or the other,they were all there for the same purpose... If they had to do certain things in certain ways at the time when mankind lived in their jahiliya,then their actions must be right..In today's modern age jahiliya, I just cannot race my pigeon, limited mind and understanding over prophets' when I know that God is the owner of all the souls and minds...So rest in peace my brother, but if you still choose to disbelieve, then you are welcome to do so as long as you can be answerable to God and bear its consequences as a result in the hereafter...
Berrin
Dubai Forums Veteran
User avatar
Posts: 1390

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 22, 2010
Berrin, thank you for your links. I particularly enjoyed reading your last link which confirmed my own reading of the Koran that Muslim men may marry little girls.

Since you have very clearly quoted numerous verses from the Quran, and thus appealed to it as your source for rules about marriage [as I would expect any good Muslim to do], please comment on the following that you may have overlooked before:

65:4 - Hilali-Khan trans. - "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him."

"Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi vol.5 p.620)

Considering all of the above information, Osama, I have one simple question for you and wonder if you will answer: Do you believe it is your right as a Muslim to marry a prepubescent girl?


Yup.

Here is also an entire page addressing the linguistics of the verse and the commentaries (in addition to hadith) regarding the meaning of the passage:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran

Please go through the 'Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic' of that page and also take a look at the commentaries of the verse.

I lost count to how many Muslim scholars were quoted showing that this verse allows men to marry pre-pubescent girls because the Koran lists the rules a husband is to follow when divorcing his wife if she has never menstruated due to her age.

One wonders how the Koran is a 'clear' book when more than a dozen respected scholars from medieval to contemporary times are 'confused' over the meaning of a verse.

I'm also glad that we both agree that Islam allows Muslim husbands to own concubines. I recall shafique claiming on the other forum that Islam does not allow for this - he was not talking about modern interpretation of Islamic law, but that concubinage is not in the Koran.

Regarding rules for having sexual intercourse with Ma malakat aymanukum, a man may not have sexual intercourse with a female slave belonging to his wife.[2] Neither may he have relations with a female slave if she is co-owned. He may have sex with a female captive who was already married prior to captivity.[3]

If the female slave has a child by her master, she then receives the title of "Ummul Walad" (lit. Mother of the child), which is an improvement in her status as she can no longer be sold and is legally freed upon the death of her master. The child, by default, is born free due to the father (i.e., the master) being a free man. Although there is no limit on the number of concubines a master may possess, the general marital laws are to be observed, such as not having sexual relations with the sister of a female slave.[2][4]

People are told that if they do not have the means to marry free-women, they can marry, with the permission of their masters, slave-women who are Muslims and are also kept chaste. In such marriages, they must pay their dowers so that this could bring them gradually equal in status to free-women.[5][6]

Fornication (sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are not married to each other) is regarded as an offence. Muhammad gave exemplary punishment to owners of brothels that were operated using their slave-women for such pleasures.[7] Muhammad also told people that they are all slaves/servants of Allah and so instead of using the words عَبْد (slave-man) and اَمَة (slave-woman), the words used should be فَتَى (boy/man) and فَتَاة (girl/woman) so that the psyche about them should change and a change is brought about in these age-old concepts.[8][6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat ... um_and_sex
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 22, 2010
eh - you like references, so I thought you'd love Berrin's first post giving all the references on the subject of the age of Aisha.

If what Berrin has shown is true - doesn't that blow your argument that the Prophet was a paedophile out of the water? And would that not also undermine the specious arguments about Islam condoning paedophilia?

Just asking, perhaps you're still reading the article and looking up the references to confirm they are correct? (I trust you aren't just looking for contrary selective quotes and ignoring Berrin's post on the age of Aisha) ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 22, 2010
Was it common for eighteen year old girls/women to play with dolls with their girlfriends at that time?

Maybe you can answer the question for Berrin, do you see anything wrong with lying with a nine year old girl when you're a fifty year old man?

As a 'Muslim', have you thought of venerating Muhammad in this way by taking a leaf out of his playbook?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 22, 2010
I thought you liked references and would appreciate the page of references that Berrin produced.

I couldn't see where you addressed any of these references which contradict the reports that Aisha was a doll-playing 6 year old when she was married.

I look forward to your refutation of the numerous references Berrin produced - it should prove interesting. Or perhaps you are not interested in checking out your theories against evidence?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
I'm happy to join you in condemning all instances of old men taking little girls as their wives.

Personally, I think such rapists should be put away as the lowlifes that they are. What do you think?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
Great, I'm happy you are agreeing with me more these days. I, along with the Saudi Authorities and this girl's mum share your views of this particular guy. I think there is a strong case to change the laws there.

However, given that you never cease to try and link present day events with your views of what happened in Arabia over a millenium ago, I'm surprised that you're letting Berrin walk all over your theory with his long list of references which challenge your view that the Prophet, pbuh, was a paedophile.

Have you really surrendered, or was the list too long for you to read?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
Then I'm happy to join you in condemning Muhammad *if* he took a little girl as his wife.

Surely, you don't have a problem condemning that, right?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
I know you are happy with your beliefs. However the question was whether you were going to address all the references Berrin gave you against your belief?

I have to say, I was not aware of most of the refs Berrin gave, so I was looking forward to you looking into them and giving us reasons to doubt the references - but I guess we'll have to take your silence as a sign that you can't dispute them.

Therefore, it appears that your belief that the Holy Prophet, pbuh, was a paedophile does not stand up to scrutiny. There's a pattern emerging.. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
Do you concede that if prophet Muhammad married a little girl who was still clutching her dolls and having 'tea parties' with her girlfriends, that would make him worthy of condemnation?
event horizon
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 5503

  • Reply
Re: 80 year old Saudi marries 11 year old girl Jan 23, 2010
Why do you want me to concede to a point which Berrin's long list of references disputes?

If Muhammad, pbuh, had murdered entire villages - women, children and oxen - like Moses is described in the Bible, then I would condemn that as a clear war crime. But it is a big if.

Would you concede that if you molest little girls, I would condemn you. Would you concede that IF your father slept with your sister as a child, I would condemn him as a paedophile and condemn the incest. If you were born out of that union - I would pity you and your sister. Would you join me in condemning these people if they had done these actions?

I hope you get the point - think about how anyone would feel if asked to concede to the hypotheticals in the previous paragraph?

So, will you or won't you address the references Berrin gives for the age of Aisha?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

posting in Dubai Politics TalkForum Rules

Return to Dubai Politics Talk


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Last post
cron