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Hey, you asked what discrimination Israel was carrying out in East Jerusalem, I just quoted to you the first page of the whole section B'tselem devotes to the topic.

I even highlighted the bit where they clearly state Israel is discriminating.

Therefore, my logic seems to be sound:

shafique wrote:1. Is Israel breaking international law by treating East Jerusalem as part of Israel? Categorically, yes.
2. Is it a crime to discriminate by nationality in occupied territory (such as East Jerusalem) - categorically, yes.
3. Is Israel discriminating against non-Israeli citizens in East Jerusalem - FD says yes and that this is 'normal' - however, given 1 and 2, this 'normal' practice for FD is categorically illegal under international law.

Or am I missing something?

Cheers,
Shafique

You are missing the fact that all Israeli citizens are treated the same. East Jerusalem is outside the green line and most are not Israeli citizens (although it is offered to them) and therefore they cannot lease land inside Israel (the green ine). I worry about the fact the PA put the death penalty on selling lands to Jews, Thats racisme for you! I worry about the blatant antisemtism of Hamas. I worry about people saying they want peace, but actually want war, like he phased desctruction of Israel.

Flying Dutchman wrote:You are missing the fact that all Israeli citizens are treated the same.

I would not expect otherwise.

All British Citizens are treated the same as well.

However, if the Brits tried to discriminate between Brits and non-Brits in a piece of territory it just occupies - then that too would be illegal.

I could not see where my logic was faulty though - East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, Israel is discriminating, the discrimination is illegal - simple.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I could not see where my logic was faulty though - East Jerusalem is not part of Israel, Israel is discriminating, the discrimination is illegal - simple.

Yes, discrimination in Israel is illegal by law. Do you agree that discrimination in the Palestinian areas is legal though? Do you agree both the PA and Hamas donot care about human rights? Do you agree that 90% of the people in Palestinians prisons are there without a trial? Do you agree a death sentence for selling land to a Jew to inhuman? Do agree it is the PA that refuses to join the peace negotiations?

I totally condemn all criminal acts and don't make a distinction who carries them out. The hostages in Israeli jails are no different from hostages held by PA et al - both are illegal and should indeed be condemned. I have already agreed that I disagree with the characterisation of selling East Jerusalem land as treason which carries the death penalty, I similarly denounce all the murders carried out by Israel in what is euphemistically called 'targetted killings'.

See - where injustice occurs, one denouces them - we shouldn't use one set of injustices to excuse another.

However, I don't agree that it is the Palestinians who are holding up the peace process - they have clearly stated that they want to negotiate and have merely said that Israel must stop all illegal building of colonies/settlements in occupied territories. It is Israel that is not agreeing to this pre-requisite.

I particularly abhor the attempts to blame the victims - it is not Palestinians who are the occupiers and who are breaking international law by building colonies etc.

This thread was initially about Palestinian peaceful diplomatic moves to get the peace process moving - by shaming the Israelis to come back to the negotiating table. Since the post was made, Israel has announced even more illegal building in East Jerusalem. I find it hard to blame the Palestinians for holding up the peace process.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I totally condemn all criminal acts and don't make a distinction who carries them out. The hostages in Israeli jails are no different from hostages held by PA et al - both are illegal and should indeed be condemned.

Israeli jails are under constant international scrutiny...and everything is within international law. Contrary to the Hamas thugs for example who refuse access to prisoners by the red cross. It is the PA and Hamas who need to be condemned in this case, not Israel. It is the PA and Hamas who are breaking international law, not Israel.

shafique wrote:However, I don't agree that it is the Palestinians who are holding up the peace process - they have clearly stated that they want to negotiate and have merely said that Israel must stop all illegal building of colonies/settlements in occupied territories. It is Israel that is not agreeing to this pre-requisite.

Israel also has preequisites that are not met by the PA, still it doesn't refuse to negiotatie, like the PA does.

shafique wrote:I particularly abhor the attempts to blame the victims - it is not Palestinians who are the occupiers and who are breaking international law by building colonies etc. .

They are however breaking international law every day, as we have established. They have no regards to human rights.

shafique wrote:This thread was initially about Palestinian peaceful diplomatic moves to get the peace process moving - by shaming the Israelis to come back to the negotiating table.

Israel is present at the negotiating table, PA is absent.

As I said, we have to choose who to condemn and who to condone.

I am with B'tselem etc in condemning the hostage-taking and murders carried out by Israel. Calling kidnapping and hostage taking 'administrative detention' or murders as 'targetted killings' does not fool too many people.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I am with B'tselem etc in condemning the hostage-taking and murders carried out by Israel. Calling kidnapping and hostage taking 'administrative detention' or murders as 'targetted killings' does not fool too many people.

Btselem only accusses Hamas of hostage taking, not Israel. Even Btselem doesnot follow your propaganda slogans and recognizes administrative detention is within international law. Its both Hamas and the PA who donot have any respect for human rights, as shown in their prisons, lynch parties and torture practices.
I would say they first have to get their act together before declaring their own state.

Oh dear, I see that once again I have to quote what B'tselem actually states on the hostage taking by Israel:

Israel's use of administrative detention blatantly violates these restrictions. Over the years, Israel has held Palestinians in prolonged detention without trying them and without informing them of the suspicions against them. While detainees may appeal the detention, neither they nor their attorneys are allowed to see the evidence. Israel has therefore made a charade out of the entire system of procedural safeguards in both domestic and international law regarding the right to liberty and due process.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Administ ... Detention/

However you dress up the action, taking and holding people without trial or due process is hostage taking.

Cheers,
Shafique

Israel's administrative detention is within all the provisions of the Geneva convention. If this is not the case, prisoners are released.
Before the PA declares its own state, it must first show it at least has some respect for human rights, because at the moment it doesn't. 90% of the prisoners are held without trial and people are executed at will. Hardly a solid base for a own state.

You say that Israel is holding hostages legally, I disagree and refer you to the B'tselem statement above.

Israel also murders Palestinians, and calls this 'targeted killings' - this is no different from Palestinians killing Israelis without due process. As I said, I don't distinguish between who is carrying out crimes before I condemn - nor do I try and hide behind weasly descriptions of the actions. But that's just me.

Cheers,
Shafique

Btselem refers to Hamas and the likes when it speaks of hostages. You might disagree with admin. detention, which is another issue. The red cross and other organisations have full access to each prisoner in Israeli jails. Hamas doesn't allow the red cross the visit, which make them an outlaw. Their is rule of law in Israel, not in areas controlled by Hamas and the PA, which is more gangsta rule.

shafique wrote: As I said, I don't distinguish between who is carrying out crimes before I condemn - nor do I try and hide behind weasly descriptions of the actions.

Still waiting for you to condemn the Muslim only roads in Saudi then...Mr. double standards.

I'm just agreeing with the South African government - you dispute their conclusions that Israel's forcible eviction of Arabs from their homes in East Jerusalem is reminiscent of apartheid. I agree with their views about this illegal act.

I also agree with B'tselem about Israel's hostage taking - that it should stop and it makes a mockery of the laws governing legal 'administrative detention'. I also join B'tselem and all other countries and orgainsations who condemn Israel's murder policy - where they kill people without due process.

Now, instead of addressing the actions of Israel, you instead want to divert attention to discrimination that is occuring in Saudi Arabia - and want me to agree with you that having 'Muslim only areas' should be condemned. I've already agreed, that if Saudi Arabia (or any other state for that matter) commits any crimes similar to Israel, then they too are subject to the same condemnation. No double standards there - no excusing of their crimes because some other country is imagined to be worse.


So, I come back to the same point (again) - Israel's illegal eviction of Arab residents from their homes in East Jerusalem is both illegal (by international law) and has been likened to apartheid-era forced evictions of blacks. The ones making this connection are none other than the South African Government.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I also agree with B'tselem about Israel's hostage taking

Israel doesn't hold administrative prisoners as a bargaining chip. Something Btselem also seem to realize, since these prisoners are not referred to as hostages. Unlike Hamas, who does take people hostage, and are even proud of it and a whole nation is even making fun of mothers agony.

shafique wrote:Now, instead of addressing the actions of Israel, you instead want to divert attention to discrimination that is occuring in Saudi Arabia - and want me to agree with you that having 'Muslim only areas' should be condemned. I've already agreed, that if Saudi Arabia (or any other state for that matter) commits any crimes similar to Israel, then they too are subject to the same condemnation.

Thats a very cryptic way of saying you agree with the Muslim only roads in Saudi.

If Arabs think that peace negotiations can only start once all their demands are met, they should really reconsider, because that is not gonna happen. A party who has launched several aggresive wars of annihilation and loose terrible every time cannot expect to be the demanding party. Concessions will have to be made. Arabs and Palestinians specifically never missed an opportunity to miss a good opportunity in this conflict throughout history.

Kidnapping civilians and holding them hostage is just how I'm describing the kidnapping and holding of civilians who aren't accused of any crime. What motivates Israel to kidnap these guys isn't really the issue - if they commited crimes, all good and well - charge them. Holding them hostage without charge is where I agree with B'tselem's conclusion above.

However, the murders committed by Israel are almost unanimously condemned - and I am pleased that you haven't tried to justify these murders (which Israel calls 'targeted killings').

As I said about Saudi - I'll happily condemn ANY crimes that constitute apartheid/racism etc -but you will excuse me if I don't necessarily agree with you and ask for at least one judicial body to confirm that a crime is being committed.

We just have to agree to disagree on who is holding up the peace process -whether it is Israel who insists on defying the US and international community and continue building illegal colonial houses, or whether it is the Palestinians who say Israel should at least stop this building before negotiations can continue.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Kidnapping civilians and holding them hostage is just how I'm describing the kidnapping and holding of civilians who aren't accused of any crime. What motivates Israel to kidnap these guys isn't really the issue

Ah, OK, that explains it all...people in jail who are not trialed yet are hostages according to you. Motivation is a key element of the definition of hotages. This definition clearly apllies to Hamas, not Israel.

shafique wrote:We just have to agree to disagree on who is holding up the peace process -whether it is Israel who insists on defying the US and international community and continue building illegal colonial houses, or whether it is the Palestinians who say Israel should at least stop this building before negotiations can continue.

It didn't stop the PLO or the PA before to negotiate with Israel, and now all a sudden it is a blocking issue. The PA seems to overplay their hand. Being the aggressor in this conflict, Palestinians shouldn't expect to make pre-negotiation demands.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Ah, OK, that explains it all...people in jail who are not trialed yet are hostages according to you.

Not quite - those held hostage without charge - i.e. held without even being accused of committing a crime.

It's a denial of a basic human right.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Not quite - those held hostage without charge - i.e. held without even being accused of committing a crime.

Administrative detainees are accused of planning terrorist attacks. Eventually those prisoners will be freed or go to court. Although this is allowed under international law, I do believe this a very slippery slope. Ideally suspects will be trialed immediately of crimes committed. On the other side I donot think governments should wait until terrorists commit their crimes if it would safe civilian lives.

Hamas however, has a hostage taking policy with the sole purpose of trying to compel the opposite side to agree with their demands (freeing hundreds of Arab prisnoers in Israeli jails, many of which are convicted terrorists). The Red Cross is not allowed to visit and Hamas even threatens to harm a person when demands are not met.

As I've said before, I will side with the Israeli Human Rights Organisation and others who denounce the hostage taking by Israel. If your logic was true, they would not then later release the hostages without charge or exchange some of them for hostages held by Palestinian groups.

I also denounce Hamas' policy of holding hostages - but note that they hold far fewer hostages than Israel does (perhaps as low as 1% of the hostages held by Israel).

We also denounce Israel policy of extra-judicial murder (well, all murder is extra-judicial).

Thanks for giving us the Israeli view - Israeli law condoned torture, but then they changed the law, and I hope that in future they will stop taking hostages (including women and children).

But let me quote what B'tselem says about Israel taking Lebanese as hostages:

Between December 1999 and January 2004, Israel held Lebanese prisoners in administrative detention as hostages for potential exchanges for Israelis taken prisoner or missing from the Lebanon War. Over the years Israel released these hostages, and the last of them were released in a prisoner exchange in January 2004.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Administ ... istics.asp

Similarly, HRW also called on the UN to get Israel to stop torture and hostage taking (torture was later made illegal, as in most civilised nations, but was legal in 1998):
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1998/07/14/un-should-condemn-israeli-torture-and-hostage-taking

Cheers,
Shafique

The Israeli Court ruled against the policy of holding people as bargaining chips as is very keen this doesn´t happen anymore. Currently Israeli doesn´t hold any hostages, contrary to Hamas. Seems like Israel is making serious process with human rights, although her enemies donot care at all for human rights. Religious fanatics like Hamas and Hezbollah, take hostages, torture and execute opponents at will. They bring themselves and the population back to the stone ages. Very hard to make peace with these groups, as they announced themselves that they will never support a permanent peace agreement.

I also applaud Israel's judiciary for trying to stop inhuman practices. They did it with torture, now they have to go all the way and stop holding people hostage - either charge them for crimes or release them.

Now, I guess you may even agree with me that the Israeli crimes of murder are also violations of human rights - or do you have an excuse for the murders/'targetted killings' ?


I'm also reminded of the labelling of those fighting oppression as 'terrorists', 'fanatics' etc - this was done to Mandela, George Washington etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

I also think we are in danger of forgetting what the thread was initally about - it was about Palestinian diplomatic efforts to make progress in the Peace Process - by exposing the fact that Israel is refusing to abide by the reasonable precondition that it should stop illegal colonies being built in the occupyied territories.

Yesterday we had another example of more building work approved:

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat said the Israeli government was "talking about peace and negotiations in a way that is totally opposed to the reality on the ground where settlement activity is continuing".

"We condemn this decision in the strongest language and we condemn the Israeli government's continuing construction of settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank," he told the AFP news agency.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8442209.stm

And today we have news that Israel has launched an airstrike in Gaza which has killed one Palestininian and injured 3 others!

Cheers,
Shafique

This "reasonable precondition" never stopped the PA or PLO before from negotiating with Israel. The PLO has declared a Palestinian state before, which failed. Also unilateral actions taken by Israel, th retreat from Lebanon and Gaza, turned out to be a disaster. Unilatreal actions just to not work. The final status should be negotiated, which the PA refuses to do at the moment. The PA thinks that they can sit back while Obama will deliver them what they want. A grave mistake. Let alone Hamas, who in the eyes of many is the legal representation of the Palestinians, who still actively wants to destruct Israel. Donot expect peace with thugs like that.

Israel made pre-conditions before it joined the Madrid peace talks (it required the UN to reverse a UN resolution) - and the world complied.

The issue is now that the Palestinians are quite reasonably asking Israel to stop trying to change 'facts on the ground' by building colonial settlements in occupied territory.

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree as to who is actually holding up the peace process and who is the agressor and who is the victim here.

But do you agree with me that Israel's continuing policy of 'targetted killings'/murder is not helpful either?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Israel made pre-conditions before it joined the Madrid peace talks (it required the UN to reverse a UN resolution) - and the world complied.

So?

shafique wrote:The issue is now that the Palestinians are quite reasonably asking Israel to stop trying to change 'facts on the ground' by building colonial settlements in occupied territory.

It never stopped before from negotiating. Seems they are just looking for excuses.

shafique wrote:As I said, we will have to agree to disagree as to who is actually holding up the peace process and who is the agressor and who is the victim here.

The agressors are the Arab leaders, who choose to not to be willing to live in peace and started several genocidal wars. The victims of those Arab leaders are the Palestinians.

shafique wrote:But do you agree with me that Israel's continuing policy of 'targetted killings'/murder is not helpful either?

Continuing, why continuing? Unless you mean targetting armed groups who are about to lauch rockets in Israeli civilian centres. I think those attacks by Israel, against people shooting rockets at playgrounds, are very helpfull to take out the agressors.

So, it is ok for Israel to ask for the UN to change a resolution before it will attend a peace conference, but not ok for Palestinians to ask Israel to stop breaking international laws!

Fair enough - that's your opinion.

I also note that you are trying to justify Israel's policy of murder/assassination/'targetted killings'. I'm not referring to the killing of militants who are about to fire on Israel - that's legitimate self defence - but rather to the acts of murder where troops or bombs are used to kill Palestinians who don't pose an immediate threat.

As I said, we must agree to disagree as to who the aggressors and who the victims are here.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, it is ok for Israel to ask for the UN to change a resolution before it will attend a peace conference, but not ok for Palestinians to ask Israel to stop breaking international laws!

As I mentioned before, which is something you haven't addressed, is why this has in the past not been a blocking issue for the PLO/PA and now all of a sudden it is?

shafique wrote: but rather to the acts of murder where troops or bombs are used to kill Palestinians who don't pose an immediate threat.

And when did that last happened according to you?

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:So, it is ok for Israel to ask for the UN to change a resolution before it will attend a peace conference, but not ok for Palestinians to ask Israel to stop breaking international laws!

As I mentioned before, which is something you haven't addressed, is why this has in the past not been a blocking issue for the PLO/PA and now all of a sudden it is?

The scale of the building and sheer cynicism of Israel to continue building when the US etc all have told it to stop. According to President Carter, in his book Palestine Peace not Apartheid, he says that Israel promised at Camp David to honour UN resolution 242 and not seek to retain occupied land.

Similarly, when George Bush (senior) threatened to withold US aid because of a particular big project on occupied land (East Jerusalem, IIRC), the work on that particular development halted. Then after he wasn't in power, the project continued and was finished.

It is particularly cynical at the moment, because Israel is trying to change the facts on the ground in a land grab. I'm sure you are familiar with the quotes by Ariel Sharon on the subject.

Let me quote Carter from a speech to Israelis in 2006 -

The United States and almost all other nations recognize that Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of international law and the primary incitement to violence among Palestinians. Our most intense arguments at Camp David were about their existence and potential expansion. During the administration of George Bush, Sr., Secretary of State James Baker said, "I don't think there is any greater obstacle to peace than settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an advanced pace," and the president threatened to withhold American financial aid in order to discourage Israeli settlement expansion.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote: but rather to the acts of murder where troops or bombs are used to kill Palestinians who don't pose an immediate threat.

And when did that last happened according to you?

Here's a handy list of the Israeli assassinations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Is ... ssinations

Cheers,
Shafique

Just a bunch of foreigners from a unimportant, Third World country. Why are you getting so worked up about it?

Probably terrorists anyway.