Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible With Western Law

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Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Please watch this short (2 min.) excerpt from ForaTV:


Wafa Sultan, author of A God Who Hates, argues that with respect to the United States Constitution, Islam doesn't qualify as a religion. She explains that Islam is both a religion and a state, which is incompatible with a non-Muslim government. "It is impossible for someone to be a true Muslim and a true American at the same time," she argues.

I'm curious as to how people think of this as being true or false and what considerations you have towards this opinion.

Lets make this an interesting debate... :wink:

RobbyG
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
wrong place mate ;)

and isnt wafa that anti islam woman ;)
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
This belongs in Religion. Needs to be moved.
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
This thread has troll magnet written all over it !
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Bora Bora wrote:This belongs in Religion. Needs to be moved.


+ 1 let shaf have the honours
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
I'm sorry fella's. Wrong forum indeed, although its hypocrite to say that general affairs and religion need to separated on a Dubai forum, don't you think?

Its not a secular society here, so this islam/law debate should suit fine in General forums. :wink:

Nevertheless, can we keep this a bit serious and spin off a decent debate whether or not her statements make sense?

I don't have an opinion about this lady yet. The subject is an interesting one though. Please reply if you have something useful to contribute...just this once...manageable right?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
RobbyG wrote:I'm sorry fella's. Wrong forum indeed, although its hypocrite to say that general affairs and religion need to separated on a Dubai forum, don't you think?


NO ! so off to the forum down below.

SAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!! where you at man.
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
rudeboy wrote:wrong place mate ;)

and isnt wafa that anti islam woman ;)


desertdude wrote:NO ! so off to the forum down below.

SAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!! where you at man.


Wrong place? Why then?

Since when is Dubai a secular society where state matters (law) are separated from religious matters?

This is not about religion. Its about the statement that Islam is incompatible with Western law.
So, the topic of religion is inconceivable related to state laws in Dubai, and cannot simply be shoved to the religion section, or a decent debate would be thrown out of the General context.

Do you get my point?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Ok dude looks like you have some kind of bone to pick or something to say, so why not dispense with the fluff and come out with it, straight up !

Besides this topic has been done to death everywhere, use your google skills
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
I can not watch youtube! It's blocked! give me some help here!
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:Ok dude looks like you have some kind of bone to pick or something to say, so why not dispense with the fluff and come out with it, straight up !

Besides this topic has been done to death everywhere, use your google skills


Oh my, here you go again. Assumptions...

No mate, If you read properly you see clearly that I intend to spur off some serious debate and get to the bottom of things, without preconditions. I rather listen to people and respond with some intellect, rather than spouting my emotions. I don't do that. I like facts and experience more.

Why always respond on the wrong footing?

Try and make a topic work for once. Are you able to do that with me?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
melika969 wrote:I can not watch youtube! It's blocked! give me some help here!


Hi Melika,

Here is the original discussion on Foratv: http://fora.tv/2009/12/01/Moderate_Isla ... ullprogram

The excerpt I found at YouTube is part 18 on this website.

Hope you can start the debate with me more seriously than others so far...
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
No even going to bother on clicking that link. Nothing new that any Islamophobe hasn't said before. We have our own resident phobes here and even thay have brought it up ( I think, don't really pay attention to their blabberings )

And also as said before this topic has been done to death ( outside of DF ) so really no point in beating a dead horse.

So as the majority says --------------------------> MOVE IT. Maybe down in the sub forums someone will entertain your thoughts. Or will I have to say the magic word and have it moved to FC ?

You say you like facts and since this intrigues you so much, so why not go to the source. Read the Quran plus the sunnah and man made western law instead of second hand and in most cases flawed interpretations and come to your opinion wheter the two are compatible or not, instead of "listening" to baised views.

Fair enough ?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:No even going to bother on clicking that link. Nothing new that any Islamophobe hasn't said before. We have our own resident phobes here and even thay have brought it up ( I think, don't really pay attention to their blabberings )


If you don't like to debate, thats fine. You don't have to respond. :idea:

And also as said before this topic has been done to death ( outside of DF ) so really no point in beating a dead horse.


Then why is this debate very prominent and current in the world beyond your closed surroundings?
My link to Fora.tv is a debate done on 1st of December 2009. Also very current... think again.

So as the majority says --------------------------> MOVE IT. Maybe down in the sub forums someone will entertain your thoughts. Or will I have to say the magic word and have it moved to FC ?


What majority? DD and BB? 8) Get outta here.
Are you threatening to ruin the debate by foul speak? So you are denying other people their opinions and expressions about this subject?

Drop your ignorant ego mate. Join or be quiet and leave this topic for the ones that do like to discuss our social problems, so we can one day live in greater understanding.

You say you like facts and since this intrigues you so much, so why not go to the source. Read the Quran plus the sunnah and man made western law instead of second hand and in most cases flawed interpretations and come to your opinion wheter the two are compatible or not, instead of "listening" to baised views.

Fair enough ?


The source is the people, DD. A book doesn't satisfy me. Its about the people and experiences that matter. A book might deliver an insight, never will it tell the entire truth.

Its the people that matter. Not a book.
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Well sorry bud, you cannot tell me whether I should or should not post in this thread. This is a public forum after all What goes around comes arounds I guess ? If you remember that is !

Anywho, Just because it took place this month doesnt means it hasn't been covered before. Look it up !

I could put my twist on it as say that you cannot be a true chirstian and a true american at the same time or put any religon in there and it will work. Judaism, Budduist, Hinduism..Flying spaghetti monster ! or an atheist, just like you.

So one really cannot be a "true" american and believe in any religon ( or none )at the same time. The two just don't gel. So why highlight only Islam.

You could also subsitute any other nationality in there and the equasion still wouldn't work

Hell 99% americans arn't "true" americans. So what is your point ?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Allright, we are getting somewhere pointing to a discussion. Good.

First of all. Lets stick to the facts:
I said you 'don't have to' respond. That means that if you don't want to join a sincere debate, you can skip this topic. I do want a sincere debate and no threatening or other type of foulmouthing derailments like you insinuated.

That should be clear. I never said you were not accepted in this debate, because EVERYONE can join! Freedom of participation. Just keep it serious and be contructive in your argumentation or please move onwards to other topics that suit your interest.

Second, you are allowed to discuss any form of religion related to Western Law. Or other variations, but my topic is about Islam and Western Law. Why?

Because thats what caught my interest on Fora TV. Its called Critical Thinking:


You are free to start your own topic about such relations. You have my blessing. (pun intended)
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:Hell 99% americans arn't "true" americans. So what is your point ?


Just out of curiosity, and being american, could you please define what a "true" american is. I'm wondering if I'm in the 99% bracket or the 1% bracket. :?

Sorry RobbyG for highjacking, but a statement was made that I would like clarified. I feel like puppypup: I'm questioning my identity. :)
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Bora Bora wrote:
desertdudeshj wrote:Hell 99% americans arn't "true" americans. So what is your point ?


Just out of curiosity, and being american, could you please define what a "true" american is. I'm wondering if I'm in the 99% bracket or the 1% bracket. :?

Sorry RobbyG for highjacking, but a statement was made that I would like clarified. I feel like puppypup: I'm questioning my identity. :)


Well, I probably was too optimistic about the chances of pursuing a decent discussion on DF.

How wrong could I be :lol:

Continue BB. :wink:
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Well not being american I can only speak from what I know, hear and see. to summarise it I "guess" it would be someone who believes 100% in the constitution, its laws, its govt, its policies and what its doing to be the right thing as it is representative of and elected by the people.

Well thats my defenition, whats yours ? being American and all that.
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:Well not being american I can only speak from what I know, hear and see. to summarise it I "guess" it would be someone who believes 100% in the constitution, its laws, its govt, its policies and what its doing to be the right thing as it is representative of and elected by the people.

Well thats my defenition, whats yours ? being American and all that.


HA, how wrong could you be, DD.

If American's policymakers/voters were 100% constitutional leaning, they were all supporting Ron Paul, the only Libertarian that fully defends the bill of rights from the Founding Fathers. He has been pushing for constitutional legislation for over 30 years now (Dr. Ron Paul went to government to fight against unconstitutional policies from ~1970 onwards)

http://www.house.gov/paul/bio.shtml

See this fella's record. Since that time, every American president, whether democratic or republican have increasingly stepped away from the Constitution. The Patriot act is one of those Bush propaganda bills, which really should be named the unpatriotic Act.

I sincerely hope that the American people will shrink its pork spending bureacracy and return to small government and other constitutional guidelines. It will solve the terror situation also, as American interventionist foreign policy will also be limited to domestic defence, instead of nation building worldwide.

I could go on and on and on....but I will stop here. 8)
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
RobbyG wrote:Wafa Sultan, author of A God Who Hates, argues that with respect to the United States Constitution, Islam doesn't qualify as a religion. She explains that Islam is both a religion and a state, which is incompatible with a non-Muslim government. "It is impossible for someone to be a true Muslim and a true American at the same time," she argues.

I'm curious as to how people think of this as being true or false and what considerations you have towards this opinion.

Lets make this an interesting debate... :wink:


Fine I'll bite abd provide cannon fodder, nothing intresting on telly to watch and an hour to kill so why not.

Islam does not qualify as a religon ? Says who ? Over 1 billion followers and its still doesn't ?

Islam is not a state it just has guideline as how a Islamic state should be like. Point to be noted there isn't even one single proper muslim state at this point in time on this planet. Muslims are allowed to live and practice in non muslim countries, Although it is prefered to live in a muslim state. Islam does not forbid it, but as you see technically speaking there are no proper muslim countries in this world that cannot apply today. Today we only have countries that the majority population is muslim and the law might have some touches of sharia law but not full fledged muslim states

Only if a muslim is ordered to do somthing that goes against Islamic teaching he has a right to object and not do it. If your living and going about your bussinesss in the US I don't see how. I have a few good very religious practising muslim friends some of them now US citizens living there. Some have been there for over 15 yrs now and quite proud to be american too.

So like I said this whole subject from this islamophobe who is on this stupid crusade for almost 20 years now is totally skewered and feeding to the anti islamic media machine, hence the rejection of the thread. Does not serve any real purpose to really discuss such a baised persons views me thinks. How can you give credence to someone who calls herself a muslim and then in the very same sentence goes on to say Islam is the problem ?

From wiki

"In the Time interview, Sultan described herself as a Muslim who does not adhere to Islam: "I even don't believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim."However, in a recent conference associated with conservative writer and activist David Horowitz, Sultan said:
“ I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed"

Now just subsituite Muslim and Islam with Jews and Judaism and you feel your reading hitlers diary ! And yet you want to "discuss" this persons views ? If there isn't a hidden agenda in your loaded thread then you must be very naive or too slick and try to give it the guise of critical thinking

A little example I have a few friends some who were even born and brought up here and now US citizens who now totally think the US and the west rocks and the east ( i.e what they think is a proper representation of islam ) sucks. These were usually the kids who have super strict parents, would let them watch TV or go out or play LOL so when they went to the US to presue higher studies and first time out of the clutches of their mommys and daddys saw whatthey thought was a free world and gladly embraced it, head on. getting their girls friends pregnant, blowing tutuion money of sports cars, geting tossed out of their minds etc etc.

So I can see how someone who grew up in Syria and later went to the US in the late 90's can have such as shaf would say orientalist views !

Sorry mate as far as I'm concerened ....case closed
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:Well thats my defenition, whats yours ? being American and all that.



I asked an American. Iz you Iz an American :roll:
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
desertdudeshj wrote:I asked an American. Iz you Iz an American :roll:

Fine I'll bite abd provide cannon fodder, nothing intresting on telly to watch and an hour to kill so why not.
.....
Sorry mate as far as I'm concerened ....case closed



Iz you being ignorant again? ...Denying knowledge where knowledge is due :wink:
Or critical thinking for that matter...

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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
Who is being ignorant here ?

1st my reply was to bora AN AMERICAN and expecting a reply from an American. Like I said your not American, simple ! I could be grossly wrong, but I'm not intrested in your view

2nd Wafa Sultan crediblity = 0. A well know islamophobe and anti islam mouth piece who is basking in her 5 mins of fame who will regurtitate what ever the anti islamic brigade will listen to. And you bring this persons view to the table for discussion here ? What were you expecting. If this isn't a loaded question/thread then i don't know what is ? And as rightly pointed out should have been moved to the sub forum where shaf my man likes to hunt trolls or troll-esque behaviour.


Any by usuing this " :wink: " at the end of your every post does not make you any smarter, coy or right for that matter...Get it ;)
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 29, 2009
What you think of me is less of importance to me.

Its about the things you say that make no sense to an educated mind.
The ones that read the above, and see the video about critical thinking, that I added for your convenience, will surely grasp my argumentation.

TaTa Mr. Ignorant :lol:
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 30, 2009
All I read in all your posts here was blah blah blah critical thinking blah blah blah my video blah blah critical thinking blah blah blah my video.

You surely are obsessed with that video and the phrase criticical thinking ? Now displaying true symptoms of trollish behaviour by avoiding to address the question why give any thought or importance to any views to the likes of a person like wafa in the first place ? Why discuss something which is flawed from the word get go. So much for your critical thinking and educated mind !

To the proper "educated mind" listening to her is like listening to Hitler on why the jews should be eradicated from the face of the planet.

This is starting to sound like an exchange between shaf and eh ! so yes later mr so called "educated mind" or should I say delusional state of mind !
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 30, 2009
Finally DD, you picked up 'the hint': Critical thinking...which you clearly lack as shown in above conversation.
I wouldn't want to call it a two-way discussion. Would you? :D

Anyway...I'll let you have the last word ok? There's no talking with you once your mind is focussed on the closed loop you so love, as convenient as this is to ignorant minds.

And remember...you don't always have to agree, but try to keep your chin up will ya. Or try not to bother in the first place.
Winning the intellectual debate isn't exactly your kind of cake. Better stick to the gazz guzzlers right? :blackeye:

Enjoying your carbon footprint still? Good boy.
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 30, 2009
Wafa is being controversial - but controversy is good if people actually listen to the arguments on both sides and look for the truth.

Unfortunately, there are some Muslims who do actually share the 'Islam means we need to be ruled by Sharia' and 'we need to fight to establish Muslim rule' philosophy. There are religious nutters in all religions, we have our fair share (and, arguably, an unfair share of media attention paid on these fringe nutters).

However, the question still remains - is Islam, the religion, incompatible with Western Law.

Well, in what way could Islam (the religion) be incompatible? Islam requires a Muslim believe in God, believe Muhamad, pbuh, is His Messenger, pray five times a day, give alms/charity, fast during Ramadhan and perform the pilgrimage to Mecca if he can afford to do so. It says that one should obey the 10 commandments - specifically to not murder, lie, fornicate, commit adultery... etc etc

So, I would submit, on the religious side - there is nothing incompatible with 'Western Law' - which typically enshrines a 'freedom of worship'.

Similarly the social interactions in Islam (for 'ordinary' Muslims - those not in power) - Islam teaches that of the three levels of 'virtue' - the lowest is to be fair to all people (treat them with justice), the next level is to be kind (do more for them then you get in return) and the highest is kinship (treat others like you would treat family - do good for them even if they are ungrateful or would do you harm).

Islam also teaches how Muslims should behave as citizens of any state. God says:
4:59, O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and the
Last Day; that is best and more suitable to the end


'Those in authority' can be taken to be those in power. We have concrete examples of this from the time of the Prophet, pbuh - where the Muslims who emigrated to Ethiopia were instructed to be obedient to and be good citizens of that Christian Kingdom. That country was always on good terms with the Muslim empire and was never invaded by the Muslims.


So lastly we come to the instructions for Muslims who are in power.

Again, Islam gives clear guidelines on how to rule. It advocates consultation with people, but doesn't proscribe democracy (it doesn't actually proscribe any form of government, just stipulates how those in power should behave). Therefore Islam is not incompatible with democracy, monarchy etc.

Of course, we shouldn't forget the Orientalist notions that Islam teaches that all non-Muslims should be engaged in warfare, or that Muslims need to conquer and rule etc. These Quaint Beliefs have been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere.


Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. From early examples of Muslims living in peace in Ethiopia to todays Muslims living in 'Western' countries - Islam is clearly compatible with 'Western Laws'. The only way that Islam is made to be incompatible is when we construct a strawman of a militant, bloodthirsty creed that won't accept Kafir rule - a view that rightly belongs in the 18th and prior centuries (and I conced that there are examples of both Muslims - the 'mad mullahs' - and quaint Orientalists who still cherish these views).

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 30, 2009
It is impossible for someone to be a true Muslim and a true American at the same time


Would it not be the ultimate aim of islam to make America" a muslim state?
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Re: Your Opinion - Islam Is Incompatible with Western Law Dec 30, 2009
smoggie wrote:It is impossible for someone to be a true Muslim and a true American at the same time


Would it not be the ultimate aim of islam to make America" a muslim state?


Nope.

Islam's ultimate goal is that a believer reaches spiritual union with God - a state where one's soul is at rest, God is pleased with it and it is pleased with God.

As the American Constitution enshrines freedom of religion - there is nothing in the constitution that prevents Muslims practicing Islam.

It is a people's democratic right to influence the laws that govern them, and Waha says that the Muslims in America may wish to eventually have the whole of America embrace Islam (even if takes millions of years) - but hey, the Bible-bashing south also have fantastical wishes too (and have a lot more influence on laws than the American Muslims do).

Waha makes the sweeping point that 'Islam is not a religion', but she isn't serious on this narrow point - she is arguing that Islam encompasses a political system as well and that Muslims cannot live under non-Muslim rule. This factually untrue and the earliest example of this untruth is the instructions to the earliest Muslims who lived under the rule of the Christian King of Ethiopia - the instructions came from the Prophet, pbuh, himself.

Cheers,
Shafique
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