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event horizon · Dec 17, 2009

On another thread, shafique seems to hold the quaint belief that mainstream Islam does not call for perpetual warfare against unbelievers based, in part, on verse 9:29 in the Koran, otherwise known as the infamous sword verse:

Koran 9:29 - Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.

The verse seems pretty clear to me, the Koran says to attack people who are not of the 'religion of truth' and explicitly says to attack the 'people of the Book'. I also believe this is the first passage in the Koran calling for warfare against Jews and Christians, but I could be wrong on that.

It's also interesting that a verse prior to 9:29 speaks of the battle of Hunayn so, it is clear from the historical context that 9:29 could not possibly be linked to the first 28 verses in the ninth chapter - which describes relations between the Muslims and Meccan pagans before and during the conquest of Mecca.

But now, let's look to see what Muslim scholars actually have to say about this passage:

The Reliance of the Traveler, which an online description says the following of the legal manual, 'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and Tools of the Worshipper, also commonly known by its shorter title Reliance of the Traveller) is a classical manual of fiqh for the Shafi'i school of Islamic jurisprudence' and 'The book was translated by the American Muslim scholar Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller in 1991 and became the first translation of a standard Islamic legal reference in a European language to be certified by Al-Azhar.'

That sounds pretty scholarly to me, but maybe I'm just easily impressed. However, I'll go ahead and quote the contents of this Sunni Muslim legal manual to verify that mainstream Muslims interpret the 'sword verse' in the Koran to mean warfare against unbelievers:

@O9.8: The Objectives of Jihad

The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29)

http://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Islam/Reliance.html

I will also quote from a Saudi scholar of Islam and what he writes on the rulings of Jihad. To me, it looks like he says quite clearly that there is a consensus among Muslim scholars that Jihad warfare against unbelievers is an obligation for the community of Muslims (Ummah). But perhaps shafique has another interpretation of what the good sheik writes (or he'll simply dismiss the Muslim interpretation of 9:29 and label the Muslim perspective 'Orientalist' once more):

Some of the reasons why jihad for the sake of Allaah is prescribed in Islam are as follows:

1 – The main goal of jihad is to make the people worship Allaah alone and to bring them forth from servitude to people to servitude to the Lord of people. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zaalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)”

[al-Baqarah 2:193]

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

Ibn Jareer said:

So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else.

Ibn Katheer said: Allaah commands us to fight the kuffaar so that there will be no fitnah, i.e., shirk, and the religion will all be for Allaah alone, i.e., the religion of Allaah will prevail over all other religions.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Narrated by al-Bukhaari (24), Muslim (33).

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent just before the Hour with the sword, so that Allaah will be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.”

Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.

This purpose of jihad was present in the minds of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) during their battles with the enemies of Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (2925) narrated that Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked, “Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs. We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, sucking on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.”

This is the truth that the Sahaabah and leaders of the Muslims proclaimed in their military campaigns.

Rab’i ibn ‘Aamir said, when Rustam the commander of the Persian armies asked him, “Why have you come?”: “Allaah has sent us to bring forth whomsoever He wills from the worship of man to the worship of Allaah.

When ‘Uqbah ibn Naafi’ reached Tangiers, he rode his horse into the water until the water was up to its chest, then he said: “O Allaah, bear witness that I have done my utmost, and were it not for this sea I would have travelled throughout the land fighting those who disbelieve in You, until none is worshipped except You.”

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34647/jihaad

Again, it is noteworthy that not only does the Saudi scholar provide his views on Jihad, but he also quotes several Muslim scholar who are giants in the field of Islamic theology and law.

Anyways, I'll wait for shafique's refutation of these quotes and for him to provide the mainstream Muslim perspective of Jihad warfare.

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

So, do you agree with the Muslim interpretation that the whole Quran is the literal word of God?

If so, then do you object to Muslims who literally follow all the verses of the Quran which say we need to act justly, not fight unjust wars etc?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

Sorry, I could find a response that was relevant to the topic at hand. Can you provide the mainstream Muslim position of offensive warfare and the interpretation of verse 9:29 of the Koran, the infamous 'sword verse'?

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

Your memory is playing tricks on you again eh.

9.29 and its meaning have been explained to you many times now - but you seem to think that given time re-posting selective quotes may convince others that you know what you are talking about.

May I refer you to the 'contradictions in the Quran' thread where you showed that God contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 in other verses of the Quran. I agreed with your analysis there, but just maintain that your Orientalist spin on this verse (that it is universal) belongs in the 18th century with other quaint views on Islamic teachings.

I note that you are refusing to answer the simple question about whether you believe the Bible to be correct when it blames Jews for the killing of Christ - this is another 18th century view, so it would be logical that you also believe that.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 18, 2009

Ahh, is this my dear brother EH?...

I'm also trying to see if I can help further but nah..not a avail...

Once upon a time a man of wisdom told me that an intelligent person is the one who is only told once to understand matters so that the right can be distinguished out of falsehood.

Now, I am really wondering if this is my brother EH asking the same questions over and over again despite being answered many times...

If it is not, we apologise.. and would not like to mix him with people of those prescribed infamous nature..

However, we will continue to be patient and respect while adhering strictly to all the verses of quran!....

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

Your memory is playing tricks on you again eh.

9.29 and its meaning have been explained to you many times now - but you seem to think that given time re-posting selective quotes may convince others that you know what you are talking about.

I'm afraid not. This thread was started to address the orthodox understanding of verse 9:29. Now, you can copy and paste from Qadiani dot com websites all you want, but that does not show how Muslims actually understand this passage.

The quotes and links I've provided (along with the tafseer rudeboy previously linked to) all provide the traditional, mainstream understanding of this passage - which you have claimed, unconvincingly, that Muslims do not interpret 9:29 as a command to wage war against unbelievers, for all times.

but just maintain that your Orientalist spin on this verse (that it is universal) belongs in the 18th century with other quaint views on Islamic teachings.

Sorry, what of mainstream contemporary Muslim scholars or Islamic legal texts, endorsed by Al-Azhar university, gave you the impression that these were, in fact, 18th century Orientalists?

It speaks volumes that you can not even address the passages in the OP and the unchallenged consensus of how Muslims interpret this particular Koranic passage. It's also interesting that my prediction in the OP also was spot on:

or he'll simply dismiss the Muslim interpretation of 9:29 and label the Muslim perspective 'Orientalist' once more

Now, you will have to a) refute the quotes and sources provided as not sufficiently Islamic and/or non-scholarly and b) provide alternative views from the same places (al Azhar university, universally recognized Muslim scholars) to show that Muslims do not indeed interpret passage 9:29 of the Koran as a verse ordering Muslims to engage unbelievers in offensive warfare for all times.

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

Berrin wrote:Ahh, is this my dear brother EH?...

I'm also trying to see if I can help further but nah..not a avail...

Once upon a time a man of wisdom told me that an intelligent person is the one who is only told once to understand matters so that the right can be distinguished out of falsehood.

Now, I am really wondering if this is my brother EH asking the same questions over and over again despite being answered many times...

If it is not, we apologise.. and would not like to mix him with people of those prescribed infamous nature..

However, we will continue to be patient and respect while adhering strictly to all the verses of quran!....

Hi berrin, could you please address the OP? Shafique seems to be having some trouble with basic facts. You have posted from the same tafsir website that rudeboy has, do you believe 9:29 is a perpetual command to wage war against unbelievers?

Since you are not a Qadiani, unlike shafique (who rejects the rulings of the 'mad' mullahs), could you tell me how Muslim scholars have historically interpreted this passage?

shafique · Dec 19, 2009

Berrin - try not to be too frustrated by the young man.

I suggest you just direct him to your previous threads where you explained what Islam teaches about warfare etc. I don't think he would have read your posts (they were long extracts) - but perhaps if you remind him of what was posted he may eventually read them.

eh has already shot himself in the foot by arguing that God contradicts his view of Islam in other verses of the Quran which talk about what conditions Muslims can go to war, how they should protect churches/synagogues etc, and how they should live with Jews and Christians. I totally agreed with him that God does indeed contradict the 'wage perpetual war' interpretation that he has about 9.29.

The funny thing is that he perhaps thinks that re-posting the same old selective quotes will convince anyone that his interpretation is correct!

It is just another 18th century belief - just like the one about blaming the Jews for killing of Jesus, just because the Bible says so. 20th Century Christians decided the Bible was incorrect and that it was actually the Romans who killed Jesus.

eh - if he is consistent - still blames the Jews, as he is loathe to admit the Bible is incorrect. By the same logic he also believes in Rapture (given he hasn't denied this yet).

It appears that when we ask him about his beliefs about the Bible etc - he recedes and goes on the attack.

Seems like the young man has an inferioritity complex - or is ashamed of his beliefs about the Bible?

I've had no problems affirming my total belief in God's words in the Quran or quoting from Quran/Hadith etc to back up the Muslim view of fighting.

Yet his silence over whether he believes Jesus was killed by Jews (according to the Bible) or Rapture - or many other questions - speaks volumes.
:bigsmurf:

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 19, 2009

I totally agreed with him that God does indeed contradict the 'wage perpetual war' interpretation that he has about 9.29.

Uh oh. Looks like another epic fail at understanding the written word on shafique's part.

Although I see that shafique has taken the opportunity to write another unnecessarily long post. I'm sure it has nothing to do with shafique's own ego or how much he just loves reading what he has written.

This thread is about shafique's claim that interpreting verse 9:29 of the Koran to mean perpetual warfare is an Orientalist belief not rooted in Islamic tradition and doctrine.

However, quotes from Muslim scholars have been given showing that Muslims interpret the passage as a perpetual command to wage war against unbelievers.

Unfortunately, it seems, shafique isn't actually interested in debate or dialogue. He would rather ignore the evidence presented and go on the offensive. I call this trolling, to shafique, it appears to be his standard tactic of posting when he can't address issues.

In the meantime, shafique will have to address the quotes provided in the OP if he wants an actual response. To me, they clearly refute shafique's assertion that perpetual warfare in Islam is an Orientalist invention. Otherwise, why would Islamic legal manuals instruct Muslims to wage war against unbelievers?

I can only imagine that shafique will eventually claim that most Muslims actually accept Qadianism and any Muslim rejection of Mirza Ghulam is actually Orientalist spin.

shafique · Dec 19, 2009

I understand you believe that your 18th century Orientalist views represent what Muslims believe.

However, the Muslims on this forum have put you right and given you many quotes/links etc to correct your view. Taking selective quotes and ignoring the overall message seems to be the only way that Orientalist islamophobia can make any logical sense.

You were right to point out that God contradicts this view that Muslims must wage perpetual war against all Christians and Jews. You are right to have pointed out that the media no longer reports this is what Islam teaches (if you recall you objected to Brit Muslims taking ads out in Pakistan to explain that there isn't rampant Islamophobia in the West).

I've asked whether you still harbour other 18th Century views - such as believing the Bible is correct when it blames the Jews for killing Jesus?

In the 20th Century, Christians have come round to the Muslim point of view - which is to believe God when he says in the Quran that the Jews did not kill Jesus (God makes the point emphatically).

I merely asked whether you are stuck in the 18th century on this point or not.

Your silence indicates that perhaps you may be - and perhaps you do share the Lutheran view of Jews that Hitler so admired.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 20, 2009

However, the Muslims on this forum have put you right and given you many quotes/links etc to correct your view. Taking selective quotes and ignoring the overall message seems to be the only way that Orientalist islamophobia can make any logical sense.

Indeed, I still thank rudeboy for the tafseer he has provided that agreed with my previous assertion that 9:29 calls for perpetual warfare against unbelievers.

It's odd that you continue to claim that offensive Jihad is only an Orientalist invention despite the numerous Muslim scholars who have been quoted.

I'm also curious how exactly is posting an article in full taking it 'out of context'?

Did you not read the article by the Saudi scholar or are you still planning to ignore his article in addition to the quote provided from a legal manual of Islamic Law endorsed by al-Azhar university?

Hey, your obfuscation is doing me a favor. Now anyone can witness your manner of posting that drove off the members of the forum you were a moderator of.

In the 20th Century, Christians have come round to the Muslim point of view - which is to believe God when he says in the Quran that the Jews did not kill Jesus (God makes the point emphatically).

That's news to me. Historians tend to reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead. But this is nothing new,the Koran contains so many historical and scientific mistakes that any one who took the Koran literally would be viewed as foolish by any enlightened Westerner.

BTW, still reject modern science in regards to humans sharing an ancestral link with lower primates?

shafique · Dec 20, 2009

You really must do at least a bit of your homework eh-oh - really, the other boys and girls in your classes must be so frustrated with you!

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

Chapter 4
156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,for of a surety they killed him not

Can't get more emphatic than that.

Now, it is interesting that in the 20th century - Christians have come round to this same conclusion - that it is wrong to blame the Jews for killing Jesus.

The question is though - does eh-oh believe in the 18th century view that the Bible is correct, or does he now agree with the Quranic and modern Christian view that the Jews did not kill Jesus?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 20, 2009

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

Oh dear, I see that my post saying that Jesus was *not* crucified but replaced by another Jew according to the Koran surely must have confused you:

Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead.

There - I color coded and enlarged the text for you. If you have further problems at reading and understanding the written word, please ask one of your 'co-workers' or family member to read my post out-loud to you.

You should try reading. It could help in your 'debates' with others when you can actually and/or accurately respond to what a poster has written.

What was unclear about my post? Or did you happen to see the words 'crucifixion', 'jesus', and 'koran' when you did not bother to read my post?

event horizon · Dec 20, 2009

Anyways, back on topic - do you have any tafseer/Islamic legal manual to show the alternative view of 9:29 or do you concede that not only is the interpretation of 9:29 to attack unbelievers for all times a genuine Muslim belief but that it is the *prevailing* view of mainstream Muslim scholars?

And by an 'alternative' view, I don't mean pasting from dot com websites.

shafique · Dec 21, 2009

Thanks for quoting part of the Quranic verse about Jesus.

The part I highlighted was pretty clear:

..
for of a surety they killed him not

So, the question still remains - do you believe the Bible when it says the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus, or do you agree with 21st century Christians that the Quran is right that the Jews did not kill Jesus?

Note I'm quoting the Quran directly, and not giving my interpretation of what the Quran 'claims' - as you did.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 22, 2009

What was unclear about my post? Or did you happen to see the words 'crucifixion', 'jesus', and 'koran' when you did not bother to read my post?

^^^

event horizon · Dec 22, 2009

event horizon wrote:Anyways, back on topic - do you have any tafseer/Islamic legal manual to show the alternative view of 9:29 or do you concede that not only is the interpretation of 9:29 to attack unbelievers for all times a genuine Muslim belief but that it is the *prevailing* view of mainstream Muslim scholars?

And by an 'alternative' view, I don't mean pasting from dot com websites.

please stay on topic.

shafique · Dec 22, 2009

eh - you were the one that quoted what the Quran claims about Jesus. I clarified that you hadn't addressed the main point God makes - that the Jews surely did not kill Jesus:

shafique wrote:Thanks for quoting part of the Quranic verse about Jesus.

The part I highlighted was pretty clear:
..
for of a surety they killed him not

So, the question still remains - do you believe the Bible when it says the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus, or do you agree with 21st century Christians that the Quran is right that the Jews did not kill Jesus?

Note I'm quoting the Quran directly, and not giving my interpretation of what the Quran 'claims' - as you did.

So, do you believe in the 18th century view that the Jews killed Jesus or are you now in the 21st century?

(Let me see if you've answered this in the other thread).

As for 9.29 - given that you obviously didn't read all the previous posts on the topic - what guarantee do we have that you will read them if we re-post? Can you please go back and read the previous threads and then tell us what confused you about them.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

So, do you believe in the 18th century view that the Jews killed Jesus or are you now in the 21st century?

I'm sorry, I couldn't see a response in your last post. Maybe I'll look again.

Did you comment on your original claim that I had said that Jesus was crucified according to the Koran?

Could you go back and check my post that you misread and confirm for me that you were mistaken?

For convenience, I'll re-post my post and your reaction to what I wrote. Emphasis is mine:

event horizon wrote:That's news to me. Historians tend to reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead. But this is nothing new,the Koran contains so many historical and scientific mistakes that any one who took the Koran literally would be viewed as foolish by any enlightened Westerner.

shafique wrote:You really must do at least a bit of your homework eh-oh - really, the other boys and girls in your classes must be so frustrated with you!

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

Shafique, could you confirm these posts are accurately quoted from page one of this thread? Could you also explain to me if you still believe I claimed that the Koran says Jesus was crucified or if you now concede you were mistaken when attributing that belief to me?

shafique · Dec 23, 2009

You really must stop this habit of not reading what is posted!

I simply asked whether you continued to believe in the 18th Century Biblical view that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus or whether you agreed with 21st century Christians and all Muslims who both all agree (for different reasons, I grant you) that Jews did not kill Jesus.

Its really quite simple.

Either:
A: the 18th century Christians were right to blame Jews for killing Jesus because that is what the bible told them (and the Bible says that the Romans weren't to blame - Pilate washed his hands of the act)

or

B: the 21st Century Christians are right to reject the claim that Jews killed Jesus. Muslims also agree that Jews did not kill Jesus - but for different reasons from the Christians (Christians believe, now, that it was the Romans that killed Jesus and that the Bible was corrupted or misinterpreted)

So, is it A or B?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

event horizon wrote:
So, do you believe in the 18th century view that the Jews killed Jesus or are you now in the 21st century?

I'm sorry, I couldn't see a response in your last post. Maybe I'll look again.

Did you comment on your original claim that I had said that Jesus was crucified according to the Koran?

Could you go back and check my post that you misread and confirm for me that you were mistaken?

For convenience, I'll re-post my post and your reaction to what I wrote. Emphasis is mine:

event horizon wrote:That's news to me. Historians tend to reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead. But this is nothing new,the Koran contains so many historical and scientific mistakes that any one who took the Koran literally would be viewed as foolish by any enlightened Westerner.

shafique wrote:You really must do at least a bit of your homework eh-oh - really, the other boys and girls in your classes must be so frustrated with you!

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

Shafique, could you confirm these posts are accurately quoted from page one of this thread? Could you also explain to me if you still believe I claimed that the Koran says Jesus was crucified or if you now concede you were mistaken when attributing that belief to me?

Sorry, was the question above difficult for you to answer?

shafique · Dec 23, 2009

shafique wrote:You really must stop this habit of not reading what is posted!

I simply asked whether you continued to believe in the 18th Century Biblical view that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus or whether you agreed with 21st century Christians and all Muslims who both all agree (for different reasons, I grant you) that Jews did not kill Jesus.

Its really quite simple.

Either:
A: the 18th century Christians were right to blame Jews for killing Jesus because that is what the bible told them (and the Bible says that the Romans weren't to blame - Pilate washed his hands of the act)

or

B: the 21st Century Christians are right to reject the claim that Jews killed Jesus. Muslims also agree that Jews did not kill Jesus - but for different reasons from the Christians (Christians believe, now, that it was the Romans that killed Jesus and that the Bible was corrupted or misinterpreted)

So, is it A or B?

A or B.

If you read my post, you'll see that I have indeed answered your question about what I was asking about.

Let me know if you are still confused.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

I've read your post. No where did you address your previous post where you claimed I stated that the Koran says that Jesus was crucified according to the Koran.

event horizon wrote:That's news to me. Historians tend to reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead. But this is nothing new,the Koran contains so many historical and scientific mistakes that any one who took the Koran literally would be viewed as foolish by any enlightened Westerner.

shafique wrote:You really must do at least a bit of your homework eh-oh - really, the other boys and girls in your classes must be so frustrated with you!

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

Either a) you have poor reading abilities or b) you are a master troller.

So which is it, a or b?

shafique · Dec 23, 2009

So you refuse to answer the question.

But let me play with you a bit longer - where did I say you believed in the Quran's description of the crucifixion rather than the Quran's conclusion that the Jews didn't kill Jesus? (one is the 'result' - the 'what' = 'Jews didn't kill Jesus' the other is the 'how' - 'Christians in 21st century say Pilate was responsible for the killing, Muslims believe Jesus wasn't killed')

Do you agree with the 'result' - i.e. that Jesus wasn't killed by the Jews?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

where did I say you believed in the Quran's description of the crucifixion

Uhmm, you said the exact opposite when you claimed I had stated that the Koran says Jesus was crucified.

It helps to read.

Maybe I'll send you hooked on phonics for Christmas.

shafique · Dec 23, 2009

Thanks for the Christmas present offer.

My present to you is still the on-going help I'm prepared to give you to find the 5th convert terrorist over the 9 year period we've been examining.

:bigsmurf:

Ok, I'll bite - [sigh] - where did I say that you believed the Quran says that Jesus was crucified?

My question to you (remains):

I simply asked whether you continued to believe in the 18th Century Biblical view that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus or whether you agreed with 21st century Christians and all Muslims who both all agree (for different reasons, I grant you) that Jews did not kill Jesus.

Its really quite simple.

Either:
A: the 18th century Christians were right to blame Jews for killing Jesus because that is what the bible told them (and the Bible says that the Romans weren't to blame - Pilate washed his hands of the act)

or

B: the 21st Century Christians are right to reject the claim that Jews killed Jesus. Muslims also agree that Jews did not kill Jesus - but for different reasons from the Christians (Christians believe, now, that it was the Romans that killed Jesus and that the Bible was corrupted or misinterpreted)

So, is it A or B?

A or B?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 23, 2009

where did I say that you believed the Quran says that Jesus was crucified?

Ok, I'll help you out. I said that historians reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and replaced with another Jew.

You respond by saying I should do my homework and that the Koran clearly says that Jesus was not crucified.

I think that's pretty self explanatory, don't you think?

shafique · Dec 24, 2009

event horizon wrote:
where did I say that you believed the Quran says that Jesus was crucified?

Ok, I'll help you out. I said that historians reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and replaced with another Jew.

Sorry, you must not have read my question that you quoted above.

I asked, 'where did I say you believed the Quran says that Jesus was crucified'?

This was in response to an allegation (with a funny insult thrown in - credit where credit is due):

event horizon wrote:Uhmm, you said the exact opposite when you claimed I had stated that the Koran says Jesus was crucified.

It helps to read.

Maybe I'll send you hooked on phonics for Christmas.

Simple request - where did I claim what you say I claimed?

(Surely not another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment coming up??)

Cheers,
Shafique
You respond by saying I should do my homework and that the Koran clearly says that Jesus was not crucified.

I think that's pretty self explanatory, don't you think?[/quote]

event horizon · Dec 24, 2009

(Surely not another 'all mouth, no trousers' moment coming up??)

Of course not. My post and your response to my post is absolutely clear that you misread my post and thought I had said that Jesus was crucified in the Koran.

I'll post again and perhaps this time you can comment on your off the wall response (assuming you are correct, then your response makes no sense whatsoever):

I wrote:

event horizon wrote:That's news to me. Historians tend to reject the Koran's claim that Jesus was not crucified and the Jews crucified someone else instead. But this is nothing new,the Koran contains so many historical and scientific mistakes that any one who took the Koran literally would be viewed as foolish by any enlightened Westerner.

Then you responded:

shafique wrote:You really must do at least a bit of your homework eh-oh - really, the other boys and girls in your classes must be so frustrated with you!

God is emphatic in the Quran that Jesus was not killed by the Jews. You yourself have quoted the verse before .. but let me repeat it for you.

A bit of a strange response if you did not think I had said that Jesus was crucified according to the Koran.

What exactly am I to do my homework on and why would you follow that statement up by telling me that the Koran does not say that Jesus was crucified when I had already said that in the previous post?

C'mon. You don't really expect anyone to believe you now anymore than your non-answer in regards to whether the shafique I quoted from a yahoo message board was you, do you?

Berrin · Dec 24, 2009

My dear brother Eh-of chev the chav, haven't you come across this web site...
http://www.answering-christianity.com/crucified.htm

Eh watch out, your passion for Shafique is becoming very painfull..., make sure he doesn't come to the stage of darabah, you know what comes next! I shall be so sad to see your departure..just incase...don't say you were not warned... :shock:

....

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