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event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

Some food for thought:

Mirza Insults the Family of Jesus(pbuh)

"Jesus's three paternal and maternal grandmothers were fornicators and prostitutes, from whose blood Jesus came into existence." (Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda; Anjam-i-Atham, P. 9, appendix)

"You may have tried to find a solution to my claims about the Messiah's parental and maternal grandmothers. I am tired of thinking. Up to now, no nice solution has occurred to me. What a glorious god is he whose paternal and maternal grandmothers are of such repute?"
(Nur-ul-Quran, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 9, P. 394; Nur-ul-Quran, Vol. 2, P. 45)

"Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach us that God was born of a woman - and was fed by sucking blood from the womb of his mother for nine months - the blood which had the qualities of prostitutes like the daughters of Saba, Tamar, and Rabah."
(Anjam-e-Athum, P. 41)

"Jesus had an inclination for prostitutes perhaps due to his ancestral relationship with them..."
(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda)

Mirza Insults Mary(RA)

* "Mary's eminence is such that she put off her marriage for a long time, but after constant pressure of the community leaders, and due to her pregnancy, she accepted to get married. However, people raise objection about how she could have been married while pregnant, that being against the teachings of the Torah. People also object to Mary breaching the oath of celibacy. People also question why Mary set the foundation of polygamy. In other words, why did Mary agree to marry Joseph the carpenter, despite his being already married." (Kasthi-i-Nuh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 18; Kasthi-i-Nuh, P. 26)

"Mary's hanging out with her fiancee Joseph before wedlock is a strong testimony of an Israelite custom.... Going out with fiancees among people in some frontier tribes had exceeded the limits to such an extent that sometimes pregnancy comes before wedlock, yet it is not looked down upon."
(Ayyam-ul-Sulh, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 14, P. 300)

"... Because the Messiah, son of Mary, had worked as a carpenter with his father Joseph for twenty two years, we know that he was able to invent different sorts of machines and instruments."
(Azalah-i-Auham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 3, P. 254)

"Jesus's three paternal and maternal grandmothers were fornicators and prostitutes, from whose blood Jesus came into existence." [See: Mirza Insults the family of Jesus(pbuh)]
(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda)

Jesus(pbuh) accused of Promiscuity

* "Jesus had an inclination for prostitutes perhaps due to his ancestral relationship with them, otherwise no pious man could allow a young prostitute to touch his head with her filthy hands, and massage his head with the unclean perfume purchased with the earnings of adultery, and rub his feet with her hair. Let the intelligent judge what sort of character such a person must possess."

Jesus(pbuh) called an Impostor

* "A cunning and wicked (person) who had the soul of Messiah from head to toe."
(Zamimah Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 289)
* He (Jesus) had nothing to his credit except cunning and deceit."
(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 291, addenda)
* "A most shameful thing is that the sermon on the mount, which is the essence of the Bible, Jesus plagiarized from Talmud."
(Anjam-i-Atham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 290, footnote)

Jesus(pbuh) called Immoral

* "Then surprisingly hazrat Eisa (Jesus), peace be upon him, did not practice the moral teachings himself."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 20, P. 346)

http://irshad.org/exposed/tirade2.php

There are more quotes from Mirza's foul mouth about Prophet Jesus in the link provided. However, I think this selection of rantings shows what kind of degenerate Mirza was.

What amazes me is that some Muslims do not seem the least bit bothered by the teachings of the founder of Qadianism. Indeed, many Muslims would take the opportunity to side with Qadianis even as Qadianis denigrate the scholars of Islam as 'mad mullahs' and the like.

One should be informed of some of the deviant sects in 'Islam' - and I use that term loosely because Ahmadis are clearly out of the fold of Islam.

event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

Some more quotes:

Mirza Suggests Jesus(pbuh) is Dead

* "God has revealed to me in his special inspiration that Maseeh ibne Maryam (Jesus) is dead."
(Tauzeeh-e-Maram, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 3, P.402)
* "I have been informed about the grave of Jesus (in Kashmir). And I have been informed by Holy Quran and God's Revelation to me about the Death of Jesus."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P.358, 361)
* "It is unjustly said about the person (Jesus) who is buried in the locality of Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, that he is sitting in the Heavens. How great an injustice is this! God, in keeping to his promise has power over everything. But, he can never send a person to this world the second time, whose first coming caused so much harm."
(Dafi'-ul-Bala, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 235)
* "...But Jesus's dead body could not revive the thieves crucified along with him despite their bodies being in contact with Jesus's body."
(Azalah-i-Auham, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 3, P. 255)
* "There is no doubt that I am the Messiah. I walk and flow with truth. Jesus died and is no more like you among living ones."
(Tuhfat-un-Nadwah, P. 1)

Berrin · Dec 15, 2009

EH have you read the signs of the last hour- as were in one of the links I gave on the other thread. There, it's said that the number of people who claim themselves to be mehdi and prophet (false of course) will increase towards the end times..
That is how I take it in terms of his stand or claims of himself. But ofcourse this doesn’t make them to be completely wrong when they interpreate the quran..To me it’s sort of obvious that they don’t always follow the path of sunnies. (The word Sunni comes from the word Sunnah which means the words and actions of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad).

Now if someone doesn’t have thorough knowledge of islam or is a beginner, can be quite mistaken by their claims but someone who research islam from all sources and is the follower of sunni islam, (referred to as Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jama’ah, people of the tradition of prophet Muhammad and his community – companions (sahaba)) can easy tell the right path/interpretation from wrong one.

As I said their false interpretation of verses, don’t always stop them from quoting correct interpretation from quran. That is why I sometimes read them and if agree to their work according to the sunni islam than i quote from them..
It’s like what safiques says… even the broken clock shows the right time twice a day..
If you can differentiate the right from the false than you can quote from them also…
You do not necessarily be one of them or believer of qadianism…
It’s like if a christians says something correct as stated in islam, would you refuse and reject his claim?..No, of course not… becouse being Christian has nothing to do with what he says in that case. I often use Islamic quotes from Christians as well, that’s because i can defferenciate, if what they say is compatible with islam…

Now you are right about their alleged belief about prophet jesus and his death..
There are number of articles on the net explaining their differences or let say their fallicies..
Here is another one…

By: Magdy Abd Al-Sahfy

The Ahamdyya has chosen some of the Holy Quran verses and explaineded them setting the ancient and unanimously agreed upon explanation at naught , their basic aim is to prove that Jesus is dead and dead people can not come back again to the earth and all the Quranic verses about Jesus and the hadiths abouth Mahedi -when talking about the second advent -are nothing but a refrence to another person other than Jesus and Mahedi ; this person is Gulam Ahamed

Kadyani , who founded this movement . This sect are neither Moslem nor christians . In this short article we will refute their claims ; we will mention every fallacy they say and we will give each a rebuttal .
Fallacy(1) They claim that God's law is that people live (in body) on earth so how can Jesus be an exception and lives in heavens .

Rebuttal(1):God, who has made this law is able to exclude whomever He wants ; moreover Jesus birth is more miraculous than raising him alive .

Fallacy(2) ) they misinterpret the following verse "Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him.( AL-imran:144) .They claim that the Holy Quran states that all the messengers had died before Mohummed …so Jesus must have died and those who died can't come to life .

Rebuttal (2):Among the sciences of the Quran what could be translated exclusion and the generalization . the Arabic words " messengers " doesn't imply generalization …the same fact was stressed elsewhere in the Holy Quran.

Fallacy(3) :They misrepresent the following holy verse and depend on it to prove their invalid claim.

"Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them, which Indeed return not unto them" According to their false claim , this verse annuls the doctrine of the coming back to life of the dead .

Rebuttal (3): The verse is talking to the heathens regarding their counterparts through history , it exhorts them to get the lesson from their previous counterparts and how they were tortured till death – the assured death .

The verse is talking about nations that were perished completely , while the problem is about Jesus, whom we ,as Moslem , believe that he was raised to heaven in his flesh and soul .Moreover , God , if He wants something , nothing could be out of His control .Jesus himself could bring the dead to life by God's leave .So God could make exception to the law he made for life and gave this exception (miracle ) to Jesus .

Also there is the story of the man who was killed ; God ordered the Jews to hit the dead by a piece of a slaughtered cow and the dead came to life – a dead hit by a dead and the result coming to life.

Also this verse implies the possibility of coming to life " And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty, Wise." ( Al-Baqra :196)

So God makes exception to the law He set for life.

Fallacy(4): If the coming back to life is possible , prophet Mohammed should be the first who can come back to life because of his superiority over all the prophets but this did not happen .

Rebuttal (4) :The question here is not about the coming back of a prophet after his death , it is about the ascending of a prophet to the heavens .

The superiority of the prophet doesn't necessitate having all the miracles of all his prophet brothers …Jesus had many miracles that were not among prophet Mohummed's miracles : these are fashioning out of clay the likeness of a bird and breathing into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave . Also , Moses has a miracle that was not among the miracles of prophet Mohummed . Moreover raising Jesus is the best rebuttal to the claims if the Jews ,who say that they slew Jesus and when he comes back they will be silenced .

Fallacy(5):The word "raised " is not peculiar to Jesus , it is used when talking about the other prophets when they died , God says about Idris "And We raised him to high station.( Mariam :57) ……the same words were said when talking about Jesus (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me( Al-imran:55) , so as Idris was raised ( dead) , the word " raised doesn't imply raising alive

Rebuttal (5): (first ) The exegetes have different opinions which rebuts this paralogism ; the first say that God raised him to the heavens where he died and this rebuts their calumniation .

Second : the other team says that God raised him to the paradise where he lives in flesh and soul.

The two verses concerning Jesus and Idris are different , if the verse concerning Idris implies the high rank and position , the verse of Jesus doesn't imply this because it means openly raising by soul and flesh .

The verse "causing thee to ascend unto Me " means raising to where God is while that of Idris implies just rank and position .

The Hadiths concerning Jesus are so many and all of them means openly that Jesus was raised in flesh and soul .

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gift).

The following verse is decisive and silencing :

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain,

If he died on the cross , God would have said " They slew him not nor crucified, but he died . This verse is in conformity with what the Moslem believe regarding Jesus .

Fallacy(6):Prophet Mohummed saw him in his famous ascension among the dead with Yahia

Rebuttal (6)

What is wrong with this ?

Nothing here or there against God's will

The world of the unseen has its law and logic that is behind the human behind .

One more point how could they accept the ascension of the prophet in soul and flesh to heaven and then deny that on the part of Jesus

Fallacy(7)::Jesus was not raised alive neither did he clothe anyone his features …he was just put on the Cross for few hours and he was taken down, he was in complete tiredness and they thought that he was dead and after this incident he emigrated from Palestine to the eastern countries of Iraq , Iran , Afghanistan , Kashmir and India where he lived for 120 years.

Rebuttal (3)

Where did they get this story from ?

Did they attend this incident ?

Or someone who attended this incident wrote to them from his grave ?

They should bring all the sunna Islamic books and search for this story ---it is not there .

Fallacy(8):The Holy Quran states that no one is allowed to heaven in his material body and then comes back again and the proof is that when the idolaters asked the prophet to ascend and bring with him a book that they could read , he answered saying " My Lord be glorified! Am I naught save a mortal messenger " Israa :93" , so if it is possible for any one to ascend to heaven by his body , prophet mohummed would have the priority to do ….if itis not possible on the part of prophet Mohummed , it is also impossible on the part of prophet Jesus

Rebuttal (8)The basis of those people on which they build and reinforce their belief can be anything , be strong or weak , logic or illogic and this is strong evidence to their astray and deviating from the true path of the truth ; to show this I will just mention few of these shaky bases :

They claim that the Holy Quran verses implies the impossibility of raising into heavens and the question we would like to ask them is what is their opinion of the famous ascension of the prophet on which all the Moslem scholars with one accord agree ?

Wasn't that an ascension and coming down to the earth both in flesh and soul ?

If they are of the same opinion as the other Moslems , their claim will be invalid and if they held a different opinion their goal and doctrine will be debunked .

The prophet was asked to raise himself to the heaven and bring them a book from there ….

The prophet objected because they asked him to do that by himself so he said " I am naught but a human being and a prophet " It is only to God if He willth that .

If the verse they just mentioned is their evidence goes as they think, so all the postulations that the heathens set are impossible , the whole of the verse says" And they say: We will not put faith in thee till thou cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us; Or thou have a garden of date palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth therein abundantly; Or thou cause the heaven to fall upon us piecemeal, as thou hast pretended, or bring Allah and the angels as a warrant; Thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be glorified! Am I naught save a mortal messenger? "

So according to the Holy verse , the idolaters stipulated many things to believe in him .

thou have a garden of date palms and grapes and cause rivers to gush forth therein abundantly

thou cause the heaven to fall upon us piecemeal

bring Allah and the angels as a warrant; Thou have a house of gold.

thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read

And if prophet Mohummed says " Am I naught save a mortal messenger? "

Will this imply the impossibility of having a garden and making water gush through it ?!!!!!

Didn't Moses make the land gush with water when he stroke it with his stick ?!!!

Didn't water gush out from between the fingers of the prophets ?!!!

If these are possible on the part of the prophets , why isn't the ascending into the heavens possible ?!!!

Fallacy(9): The concept of the death of Jesus is the belief of the pious scholars of the Moslem nations .

Rebuttal (9):They just mention some names and ignored the multitude of the opinions concerning raising Jesus the body and the soul.

And remember) when Allah said: "O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me."

Though they attach great importance to this holy verse in proving their unsubstantiated concept , the myriads of the exegetes are of the opinion that this verse is talking about Jesus at the end of time after the second Advent .The Arabic word "waand "doesn't imply time succession .They even mentioned the opinions of some explainer in an attempt to prove their opinions though , after close search for what they said , nothing as they said is anywhere in the books they mentioned . Moreover they misrepresent some of the opinions of some scholars' opinions ; they distorted what they said .

Fallacy(10):Most of the Hadiths that the prophet said were just clairvoyance and vision that should not be understood on its ostensible meanings and most of them needs to be deeply explained ; the words "the son of Mary " is nothing but a name of a pious man and the words (the wife of the pharaohs and Mary of the daughter of Imran are just a description of every believer .

Rebuttal (10) The visions of the prophets are revelations and if the multitude of the Hadiths concerning this point are many what about the rest of these Hadiths , both support each other to state one truth which is Jesus was raised into heaven in flesh and spirit .

Moreover , if the son of Imran is just a reference to every true believer , we can say that every word in the Holy Quran can mean something else .

So the final decision here is that what is meant by the second advent of Jesus is that some one else from among the nation of Mohummed who will ascend and Jesus himself , this man will have the qualities and the deeds of Jesus , this expected person had appeared in Kadyan and his name is Golam Ahamed …God had made him like Jesus …so he is the expected Jesus and the Mahedi of the Moslems

So if Ahamed Qudiani is Jesus.

Do all what the prophet mention about the second Advent of Jesus match Ahamed Qudian ?!!

Did he appear in the white bacon in the east of Damascus

Did every infidel die ?

Did he kill the Dajjal

Did he break the Cross

Was he a just leader

Did he make all the people Moslems ?

Was money abundant in his time ?

Did he do pilgrimage ?

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

Berrin, you do realise that eh probably won't read such a long post!

However, I did - it was an interesting read. Some of the logic I didn't follow - but such is the flexibility within Islam that allows different views on these issues.

The translation (I'm assuming it was written in another language initially) has produced some unintended humour though:

The world of the unseen has its law and logic that is behind the human behind .

and

Did he appear in the white bacon in the east of Damascus

I personally don't think Islam needs to resort to answers which say 'God can do it, so don't worry about logic' or 'God can break His own laws' - but as I've said before, these issues are at the periphery of Islamic theology and don't affect how we need to pray, live together etc. The Quranic instructions on these core issues are crystal clear.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 15, 2009

I am aware shafique , the articles come from the following site prepared by the Egyptians..
It's such a shame that the site is under attack, I wonder if they are aware of it?
Have a look!....
http://www.55a.net/firas/en1/index.php? ... &Itemid=53
If you have powers and feel like correcting on DF than please do so..

shafique · Dec 16, 2009

Berrin,

I'm not sure what you mean the the site is under attack - if you mean it is being criticised for its content -then this is normal for stuff put on the internet.

As for the spelling/translation 'mistakes' these are minor and the message is being put across fine.

'Bacon' in the quote I gave above should be 'minaret' (I think they meant to write 'beacon' - but the English translation is 'minaret' and referring to the Hadith that Isa Ibn Mariam will descend to a white minaret to the East of Damascus)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 17, 2009

Berrin, I totally agree with you that Qadianism is a false religion and Mirza Ghulam has a one way ticket to h. e. double hockey sticks.

Qadianis should consider this fact and convert to Islam if they want to be saved from eternal damnation - which Mirza Ghulam will certainly end up (I'm not sure if he's being tortured in the grave currently or if he already is there). No doubt, he is being punished for corrupting the teachings of Islam and its prophet and denigrating one of the greatest prophets in Islam.

It should speak volumes that Qadianis relish the fact that their deviant sect is growing and there are Qadianis who even take pride in the conversions of unbelievers - Muslims included, to the perverse teachings of Qadianism.

I only hope that Qadianis revert to Islam before it is too late for them.

What do you think?

shafique · Dec 17, 2009

Excellent - so for a change eh is agreeing with the majority Muslim interpretation of the Quran.

I presume that this excellent trait will continue and that he now agrees that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Orientalist interpretations of 9.29 etc are indeed 18th (and prior) century un-informed views, and that the majority Muslim interpretation that Islam mean 'religion of peace' and that Islam does not teach that Muslims should fight all Jews and Christians etc.

Excellent progress eh - I'm sure Berrin will join me in congratulating you on joining us in our belief that the Quran is God's literal word - which is the unanimous Muslim interpretation of the Quran. (It couldn't be otherwise, for that is what God says in the Quran itself!)

Now, repeat after me - Alhamdolillah!

:mrgreen:

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 17, 2009

Yes, I agree with Muslims that Mirza Ghulam is being tortured in the grave as we speak and he awaits his final abode of an eternity of hellfire when the world ends - according to the Muslim belief of the afterlife and endtimes.

It's interesting that you are repeating your refuted claim that I quoted from Orientalists on the Muslim interpretation of verse 9:29 in the Koran.

You don't really want me to cite the Islamic legal manuals that call for the Caliph to wage wars of aggression against unbelievers based on the Muslim understanding of perpetual warfare based on the Koran's passages, do you?

In any event, I'll await for you to show how mainstream Islam actually does interpret the sword verse in the Koran and whether Islam has a concept of offensive jihad warfare.

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

So, I asked whether you believe in the majority Muslim view about the Quran that it is indeed the literal revelation of God almighty.

You started your post with 'yes I agree' - but I guess you were really only trying to be sarcastic. A good attempt - but no cigar (this time at least).

So, come on - do you or do you not agree with Berrin that the Quran is the literal word of God? (As opposed to the Bible which contains forgeries - or as you like to say 'interpolations')

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

Not sure how you could have come to that conclusion. Especially since the 'yes - I agree' part was followed up by what I agreed with Berrin on.

Perhaps you are once more having difficulty with reading???

BTW, could you tell me if you believe Mirza Ghulam was a charlatan? Surely, you must have a view on the man by now.

shafique · Dec 18, 2009

So you don't agree with the majority Muslim view on the Quran when it comes to it being the literal word of God.

Ok - I thought perhaps you had had a change of heart.

I'm a bit confused as to why you want Berrin's approval of your views then? You presumably think that the Quran isn't the word of God - do you wish him to verify this belief of yours as well?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 18, 2009

I'm not sure which post of mine you're specifically addressing, but what I agreed with berrin on was clearly stated in my post:

Berrin, I totally agree with you that Qadianism is a false religion

Now, has reading always been this difficult for you?

shafique · Dec 19, 2009

Nope, reading hasn't been difficult for me - has it been for you?

I'm just trying to understand what else you think you have in common with Muslims?

I applaud you for looking for points of common understanding - but I'm surprised you are not taking the line of Prof Hans Kung who argues that Muhammad, pbuh, is a true prophet of God (and he's still a Roman Catholic priest - and a historical scholar).

I'm sure Berrin will confirm that he agrees with Kung when he explains his views about Muhammad, pbuh, being a prophet:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1248187380733&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout

But I keep coming back to your views of Jesus - do you still believe in the 18th century view that the Bible is correct when it blames the Jews for the killing of Jesus, or do you now subscribe to the 20th century (post Holocaust) view that it was those pesky romans?

Cheers,
Shafique

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