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shafique · Dec 09, 2009

shafique wrote:I just quoted you saying
Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity

Enough of the flip-flopping - what is your latest count, or have you conceded defeat?

What the question difficult because it was giving you an option?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 09, 2009

shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:I just quoted you saying
Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity

Enough of the flip-flopping - what is your latest count, or have you conceded defeat?

What the question difficult because it was giving you an option?

Cheers,
Shafique

A friendly reminder:

Do you have evidence that the NLFT are converts and, more importantly, the group is actually fighting for the establishment of a theocracy?

shafique · Dec 10, 2009

Ok, let me do some of your homework for you. The last time we had a count of Muslim convert terrorists was October 23rd 2009:

shafique wrote:....

It should be straightforward to produce your count eh - it was previously
1 terrorist, 26 killed.

Therefore your updated count is
4 convert terrorists (counting 2 for the RSM bombing)
26+116+12=152 killed

My count remains:
Total number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 247
Total reported injured :388

232 (a gross underestimate) vs 4.

Says it all.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 13, 2009

Ok so the running count remains

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Number killed by these: 247
Number injured :388

We've also uncovered that the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda who torture, maim and kill after going into battle reciting verses of the Bible, are considered to be Christian terrorists by eh and should be excluded from this count. (Seems to me that this cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - but hey, he claims to know the Bible's teachings better than me, so I'll take his word that these monsters are Christian terrorists and not converts to a strange cult).

So, we've also established that empirically the Bible contains more violent verses than the Quran, and it appears that by eh's own criteria (counting the converts who commit terrorist acts) there may be a correlation between these facts and the numbers of terrorists and killings done by supposed adherents to these faiths/books.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 13, 2009

152, eh?

I'm pretty sure my last count of civilians taken out by convert Muslims was around 215. That's of course ignoring that I did not include converts to Islam who carried out mass murder but there was no known direct link between their actions and their adopted faith.

I can't exactly say the same to someone who includes non-converts and converts who belong to secular terrorist groups.

shafique · Dec 13, 2009

If you have a more recent count, feel free to update (with references). We are counting statistics, not unverified beliefs/headlines.

I've only included in my count the people you agreed are Christian Terrorists - and I've invited you to confirm that my count is indeed an under-estimate. But hey - why don't you focus on adding to your count of 4 actual Muslim converts - above - then you can scrutinise my count and verify that the actual count is higher.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 13, 2009

As I said, if you're actually interested in accuracy, you would find out if these attacks carried out by the NLFT are:

1) Actual converts
2) Religious fanatics motivated by the texts and teachings of their adopted faith - as opposed to a mixture of nationalism and left leaning ideology

shafique · Dec 13, 2009

You can try and change the criteria until you're blue in the face - the fact remains that your latest count is 4 and dates from October!

As for the National Holy Army of the NLFT, may I remind you (again) what your conclusions were:

Friday October 2nd 2009, 9.38am (on page 1 of this thread) you said:

event horizon wrote:Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

As I keep saying - you are welcome to verify that my count is an underestimate. In the mean-time - are you happy to keep your count at 4 actual terrorists?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 14, 2009

Actually, I think my count includes four suicide bombers who were converts to Islam.

Perhaps you confused the two.

It's understandable - since there have been so many Muslim suicide bomber converts but there have been zero suicide bomber converts to other religions - an interesting indicator on just how fanatic Muslim converts are compared to converts of other religions.

It's also interesting that you continue to maintain that the NFLT are all converts (when, statistically, that isn't very likely) or that all the members (including the 10% who are not even Christian) are all religious fundamentalists.

shafique · Dec 14, 2009

I know your count only amounts to 4 terrorists who killed people.

My count only includes Christian convert terrorists who carried out terrorist attacks.

When you have finished blowing off hot air, you may actually take up my invitation and check that my figures are actually underestimates of the numbers of terrorists and victims carried out by Christian Converts who want to set up a theocracy based on the Bible.

However, if you want to separate out Converts who commit crimes and also have a political agenda - then you'll have to exclude the 7/7 bombers, Al Qaeda etc - who all have political agendas (getting rid of occupiers, freeing of political prisoners etc).

As for me, I'll stick to the original challenge and count converts who commit terrorist acts because of their beliefs in their scripture. We've established that the NLFT are one of these groups (and you argue that the LRA are similarly Christian terrorists) and no one disputes that the NLFT 'National Holy Army' is made up of converts.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 14, 2009

I'll stick to the original challenge and count converts who commit terrorist acts because of their beliefs in their scripture. We've established that the NLFT are one of these groups

Actually, if you've bothered to read, the entire point of contention is over this issue. I have asked you numerous times to show where in the NLFT's manifesto does it call for the establishment of a Christian theocracy as some poorly researched BBC articles have claimed.

You have ignored these repeated requests and instead decided to conclude from inaccurate reports that the NLFT is a Christian fundamentalist movement - this is in spite of the facts which show the group seeks to establish a workers state and has non-Christian members within its senior leadership.

Additionally, I've stated a number of times that there is *no* evidence that the majority of the group's membership are indeed converts from Hinduism to Christianity. I've repeated myself that your habits of selective quoting led me to believe that the original Christian population of Tripura was at only 10% of its current population since the mid-eighties as opposed to what the articles says when I re-read it - that the Christian population grew by 90%.

Unsurprisingly, you're not concerned with facts or accuracy, but quick results to show that you're 'right' all along. This is similar to your second grader knowledge of various other topics but continued insistence that you know what you're talking about, see your posts repeatedly claiming Jesus was the speaker in the epistle of James, your mistaken belief that Paul persuaded Peter to convert Cornelius, copy/pasting articles where the author uses false quotes (or the discussion you had with Muslim posters in which they repeatedly complained over the same tactics in debate that you are employing here).

What is even worse, is that you do not seem bothered with posting inaccurate information. To you, it would be better to be believed (or to convince yourself) than to seek out the correct information if it potentially opposes/disproves your point of view - such as your quaint belief in rejecting evolution because the theory of evolution - humans evolving from lower primates - goes against what the Koran says how humans were created and relying on simplistic explanations that convinces yourself on why humans probably didn't really evolve from anything.

If you have any actual evidence, as opposed to your MO of trolling (which you were quite successful at alienating the members of a sub-forum you were the moderator of and received numerous complaints by said members against you), then use this evidence to support your belief of why most of members of the NLFT are converts to Christianity and, indeed, that most of these converts are carrying out acts of violence to set up a Christian theocracy - an unsupported claim.

I suspect, however, that you will continue to troll. I have encountered dumb members before on the internet, but you are truly the dumbest of the dumb. Furthermore, it's not as if I'm the only one to have complained over your posting tactics. Other members, including the Muslim members on the Yahoo forum you trolled there, have made the exact *same* complaints against you.

Here, I'll provide a history lesson of how other members, Muslims no less, complained about your exact same penchant of ignoring posts, steamrolling over points made and putting words into other peoples mouths:

Mr. Shafique, I am really surprised that you have once more repeated
this unproven and unsupported claim, which we have already seen to be
without any merit. I have already provided six lengthy replies, while
you have not supplied any supported reply. Please note that, while
this strategy may be a good way to waste time, it is quite
unproductive and against our stated policy.

Unfortunately, you have not considered any of the facts and arguments
provided by us. An honest, rational, and productive discussion
demands that both sides pay close attention to what is said and
provide proof in support of their position. It is easy, Mr. Shafique,
to simply state things, while ignoring the counter arguments and all
the evidence provided. However, those who resort to such strategies
are only being dishonest with themselves and are not considerate of
others on the forum.

Please keep this in mind and revisit our prior postings carefully.
In addition, kindly avoid attributing things to others which are
clearly against what they have stated. Such postings will be seen
as obvious attempts to waste time and will be rejected. I hope
you agree that a believer is supposed to produce evidence and show
respect for the truth and honest communication.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qadianism/message/667

Ten years later, and you're still dumb as ever. Although, I admit that quoting the last paragraph reminded me of when you falsely claimed I quoted Hans Kung to address the alleged contradictions in the New Testament.

Strangely enough, after I had shown you to be a liar, you still did not explain yourself or take back your lie.

shafique · Dec 14, 2009

Are you, perchance, trying to justify your views despite the fact that the statistics show that Islam does not, after all, produce more convert terrorists than other religions?

This was your belief that you said we could verify by looking at the stats.

We said we'd get the stats and let them talk for themselves.

So, let's see what the stats say:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Number killed by these: 247
Number injured :388

Perhaps you should expend more effort on updating your stats? When you start verifying my numbers, I'll do the same for your count. I'm not sure yet that I've verified your count of 152 deaths are all attributable to Muslim converts. But, I'll wait for you to verify my numbers first.

(You don't seem to dispute the fact you've already conceded that the NLFT are Christian converts, or the fact they are terrorists - but hey, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and verify my stats and confirm that they are underestimates)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 14, 2009

(You don't seem to dispute the fact you've already conceded that the NLFT are Christian converts, or the fact they are terrorists - but hey, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and verify my stats and confirm that they are underestimates)

Do you have reading problems by any chance?

shafique · Dec 14, 2009

Nope.

I just have an aversion to re-proving a point that you accepted.

Let me quote you again:
Friday October 2nd 2009, 9.38am (on page 1 of this thread) you said:

event horizon wrote:Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

So, are you conceding defeat or are you going to argue that 4 is greater than 232?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

shafique wrote:Nope.

I just have an aversion to re-proving a point that you accepted.

Let me quote you again:
Friday October 2nd 2009, 9.38am (on page 1 of this thread) you said:
event horizon wrote:Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

So, are you conceding defeat or are you going to argue that 4 is greater than 232?

Cheers,
Shafique

You didn't prove a point. You quoted me where I incorrectly agreed with you that converts make up the majority of the NLFT.

You are honestly the dumbest member I've ever come across. Rudeboy and berrin are rhodes scholars compared to you.

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

shafique wrote:Are you, perchance, trying to justify your views despite the fact that the statistics show that Islam does not, after all, produce more convert terrorists than other religions?

This was your belief that you said we could verify by looking at the stats.

We said we'd get the stats and let them talk for themselves.

So, let's see what the stats say:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Number killed by these: 247
Number injured :388

Perhaps you should expend more effort on updating your stats? When you start verifying my numbers, I'll do the same for your count. I'm not sure yet that I've verified your count of 152 deaths are all attributable to Muslim converts. But, I'll wait for you to verify my numbers first.

(You don't seem to dispute the fact you've already conceded that the NLFT are Christian converts, or the fact they are terrorists - but hey, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and verify my stats and confirm that they are underestimates)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

You didn't prove a point. You quoted me where I incorrectly agreed with you that converts make up the majority of the NLFT.

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

I can't help you with your flip-flop - but will refer you to the various sites which state that the NLFT are Christian Terrorists (you quoted one yourself) and the fact that the reason you conceded was because the Christianity in Tripuram only took off in the 20th century - making the 'National Holy Army' fighters all converts from Hinduism and the local tribal religions.

You can try and wish away these facts - but given that the NLFT were forcing people to convert to Christianity, your protestations ring a bit hollow now. The fact that some of the Christian Converts later broke off from this main group does not change the count - I have counted only the terrorist attacks which killed civilians.

I've invited you to double check my count and verify that I've underestimated the numbers. You seem to have an aversion to actually do any work. Why is that?

However the biggest indication of your desperation is the statistics for the numbers on your part.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

Here's a description of what the Christian Convert terrorists did in 2000 (as an example):

There are too many violent acts of the NLFT to list but most involve kidnappings, extortion, mass murders, rapes, bombings and forced gunpoint conversions. NLFT seeks to severe all ties to the indigenous culture and religion of the state. Their militants have been known to shut down Hindu and Buddhist orphanages, hospitals, temples and schools as well as a establishing a ban on Hindi movies. In essence, they are the Christian equivalent of the Taliban. One attack of the many attacks that the population of Tripura has suffered under since 1989 is described below:

On December 4th, 2000, Christians converts under the direction of Missionaries, desecrated an ashram (Hindu religious retreat) set up by murdered Hindu leader Shanti Kumar Tripura. . They desecrated Hindu idols and destroyed photos of the slain religious leader revered by both Hindu tribals and Bengalis. The Christian converts also raped two female devotees and brutally attacked two men who had come to the ashram for puja (religious rituals).

The next day, Christian converts brutally desecrated another ashram at Jirania Khola and forced the inmates to stop all Hindu rituals and practices at gunpoint. A group of seven armed converted Christian terrorists barged into the ashram and threatened the 150 Hindus with dire consequences if they continued to perform Hindu rites at the ashram. The terrorists fled only after a large group of locals rushed to the ashram.

Due to threats by violent Missionaries and their Christian converts, altogether 11 ashrams, schools and orphanages set up by the murdered Hindu leader in various parts of the state have been forcibly closed down by the Christian fundamentalist terrorist organization known as “National Liberation Front of Tripura” (NLFT).

http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php

Pretty much conclusive evidence that they do need to be counted in my list of non-Muslim Convert terrorists. Do you disagree?

As I've said, my figures are a gross under-estimate - and you are free to verify.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

10 NLFT terrorists killed 8 civilians in November 2009 - so my count goes up:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388

I'll now move on to Ambon - and see whether there are any converts in the terrorist attacks carried out by Chrsitian militia there.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

You must be pretty desperate for sources if you're quoting from a site called 'christianaggression.org'.

Oh, I'm sure you would take articles from a site similarly named muslimaggression just as seriously if they were posted by others.

I mean, it's not a typical tactic of yours to accuse others of quoting from 'islamophobic' websites.

Nah - please don't try and be consistent. You might confuse someone into believing you have a few working brain cells.

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

Hey, sometimes you have to call a spade a spade!

So, are you going to verify my numbers or are you going to remain in denial?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 15, 2009

I looked at the violence in Ambon in Indonesia - it appears that the Christians carrying out terrorist attacks (and Muslims doing the same) are both composed of non-converts. The terrorists there aren't as brutal as the LRA in Uganda (who eh claims are Christian terrorists) - but as they aren't converts, the point is moot for this thread at least.

Therefore the count remains:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 15, 2009

Terror attacks in the name of religion
By Lindsay Murdoch

Circumcision has been forced on hundreds of Christians, including children and pregnant women, in a campaign by extremists to spread Islam through the war-ravaged Maluku islands.

Victims have told the Herald of multiple cuttings with the same knives and razors that caused many to suffer infections.

In the biggest city in the islands, Ambon, church and other groups have gathered evidence that 3,928 villagers on at least six islands have been forced to convert to Islam under the threat of death, torture or destruction of their homes.

They believe that local Muslim clerics, possibly under duress from extremists, circumcised almost all the converts.

Moderate Muslim leaders have condemned the forced conversions and circumcisions, saying they are contrary to Islamic teachings.

The Muslim Governor of Maluku, Saleh Latuconsina, this week led an investigation team to the island of Kesui, 420 kilometres south-east of Ambon City, after receiving an official report in late December confirming villagers there converted to Islam against their will and were circumcised.

http://www.cirp.org/news/morningherald01-27-01/

Let's see if any of these converts to Islam later on become terrorists like Muhammad and the early Muslims........

Edit: Indonesia is also where three Christian school girls were beheaded by devout Muslims. One news report says the Muslims beheaded the young ladies as a 'gift' to other Muslims. I think I would prefer race car or something like that but, hey, who am I to criticize other cultures?

Koran - 8:67 It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land. You desire the chance goods of the present world, and God desires the world to come; and God is All-mighty, All-wise.

shafique · Dec 16, 2009

the count remains:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388

Stats do the talking.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 16, 2009

event horizon wrote:26+116+12

update:

the network was responsible for three explosions in Krasnodar in August 2003, in which three people were killed and 30 wounded

3 more

(Although Wikipedia claims 4 were killed in the attack)

an explosion in the Moscow metro in February 2004, in which 40 were killed and 134 wounded;

40 more

and an explosion in the Moscow metro in August 2004, in which 10 were killed and 51 wounded.

10 more

plus, after researching the attacks where casualties aren't provided in the article:

The investigation also credited the Karachai Jamaat with three explosions at bus stops in Voronezh and with planting bombs on passenger trains in Mineralnye Vody in 2004 and 2005, as a result of which several hundred people were killed or injured.

An explosion hit a bus stop in the Russian city of Voronezh this morning, wounding two people one week after a blast at a bus stop in the city killed one person, a local security official said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/200 ... z0XAbuAYTW

1 more

December 5, 2003: Forty people are killed and more than 100 injured when a bomb explodes on a passenger train traveling between Kislovodsk and Mineralnye Vody in southern Russia.

Possibly referring to the bombing of trains in Mineralnye Vody, but the article says the bombings occurred in 2004 and 2005. I'll exclude this from the count, for now.

Kipkeyev allegedly organized the August 2004 bombing of the Rizhskaya metro station in Moscow, which was carried out by a female suicide bomber. Kipkeyev, who was on site to monitor his subordinate's work, was killed in the blast.

The suicide bombing, which was carried out by members of the convert Jihad terror group, murdered ten civilians plus two Jihadists.

10 more

26+116+12+3+40+10+1+10

The count currently stands at 218 civilians murdered by Jihad convert terrorists and hundreds more wounded.

Please try and keep up. I've already said my count was over 200 deaths. What is interesting is that I have still decided not to include the train bombing attack because I am not certain the bombing was carried out by the convert Islamist group - rather, possibly by another Islamist terror group.

I also have included Jihadist attacks that have not resulted in deaths, including the European female convert suicide bomber who joined al Qaeda in Iraq and blew herself up.

It should speak volumes that you have still not shown that the attacks by the NLFT are actually carried out by converts - I believe that a majority of the members were born Christian.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of good misinformation?

shafique · Dec 16, 2009

the count remains:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388

Stats do the talking.

I couldn't see any updated counts in your posts - neither references to convert terrorists or direct killings by convert terrorists. Headlines about attacks carried out by terrorist organisations which contain converts is an interesting tactics - perhaps you want me to include the LRA's figures?

It's quite simple - update your stats and provide references for us to verify.

Until then, you're all mouth and no trousers!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Dec 16, 2009

Let me keep this simple. The last complete statement of your statistics was on the 23rd October and was the figures below:

[quote="shafique"]

Between 2001 and 2009:
Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

I see you want to increase the numbers killed by about 50 - but you haven't shown these were carried out by converts.

Your 'belief' that the NLFT are all born Christians is a nice try. However, I'm working off statistics which I've invited you to verify.

I'm happy to verify your figures - just give me the references (see how that works?)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 16, 2009

You should try clicking on links.

The Islamist terrorist group in question, like the Philippino terror group, is composed mainly of 'Slavic' converts.

The attacks carried out are mostly by converts.

It should speak volumes that you are questioning which attacks are carried by non-converts when you do not do the same for your own stats.

Moreover, the article linked to explicitly said that a majority of the group's members are converts, so we're not just guessing here like you are with the NLFT.

shafique · Dec 17, 2009

Whilst we wait for your updated count (as we are comparing stats), the complete count remains:

Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 152
Number Injured: tbc

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388

I'm surprised that you are content to keep the number of converts you've identified at 4. The tenuous links to supposed converts is quite vague - I'm just waiting for you to specify how many converts carried out the attacks you are claiming, and then I'll check the evidence you provide that shows they were indeed converts.

In the first two pages of this thread, the evidence for the NLFT being comprised of converts was presented, read by yourself and accepted. The evidence is still there and the numbers of terrorists, counts of killings etc are all fully referenced and ready for you to verify.

But again, let me be generous - give me your first 2 additional convert terrorists (so we can move your total to 6) and give me the references for these two and their killings etc. I'll update your stats so that it doesn't look so anaemic. That's fair, wouldn't you agree?

Cheers,
Shafique

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