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However, I'm still unclear - what is the 'Jewish Refugee' problem - the article states it is about recognition rather than a right to return?

So how does this stand in the way of Peace with the Palestinians, in regards to the Arab Peace Plan?

Does FD want the Jordanians etc to say 'sorry' only - or are there really 'Jewish Refugees' living in Israel who wish to return to Jordan etc?

(I'd like to read Erekat's statement that the PA want a Jew-free Palestine - I presume there is some evidence of this)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:See my previous post above - about the definition of these 'Jewish Refugees'. Thus far, to my knowledge, no government/international body has recognised this new spin on events.

Thats indeed what they are fighting for recognizing. But I see that when 25.000 people, which is just one example, are expelled from a country are not refugees when they are jewish according to you, but all of a sudden its a spin. No surprise there.

shafique wrote:Do you have a reference for Erekat saying that he wants a 'Jew-free' Palestine?

In the Jordanian daily Al-Dustour he was interviewed and made sure to tell, no jewish settlers were allowed in a future Palestine. Oh, I should have used the Shafique way of proof: Shafique, proof to me a never ever said that, not even in private!

Isn't it fascinating what happens when we don't accept Israeli excuses at face value for refusing to make peace and accept the Arab Peace Plan and explore whether they hold any water.

So, on the question of refugees - the Peace Plan is fine with the issue of resolving Palestinian refugees, but for Jewish refugees the issue is one of:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Thats indeed what they are fighting for recognizing.

But, the Arab Peace Plan says that an agreement must be reached over refugees - surely the Israelis can negotiate that the Jewish refugees be 'recognized' as part of this 'just' settlement?

It is also fascinating how ingrained the tactics of personal attacks are - calling the issue 'spin' (which it is) is now tantamount to denying that there was a mass exodus of Jews! But hey, like FD I'm not surprised he's not surprised!

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:Do you have a reference for Erekat saying that he wants a 'Jew-free' Palestine?

In the Jordanian daily Al-Dustour he was interviewed and made sure to tell, no jewish settlers were allowed in a future Palestine. Oh, I should have used the Shafique way of proof: Shafique, proof to me a never ever said that, not even in private!

No Jewish settlers are allowed. Perhaps this was a Memri translation?

But thanks - that at least gives me some reference to look up and check out your claim. (But I can't help but chuckle at the irony of you giving a vague reference with your comments about Aloni's article on Apartheid). But hey, perhaps you are right - let me see if I can find the exact quote and check to see whether it is what the PA will do (or whether you are indulging in libel)

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, I couldn't find any reference to Erekat saying that no Jews will be allowed to stay in an independent Palestine.

I could see some spin from Memri in the headlines, but the detail of the Al Dustour interview in June this year, Erekat only talked about 'Israeli settlers' - i.e. the inhabitants of colonies that the ICJ unequivocably say are illegal.

I could see no reference that said that Palestinian Jews wouldn't be as welcome as Palestinian Christians, Arabs etc. Most nations don't give other nations' citizens the automatic right of residence.

So, are you spinning a story about the PA, FD - or did you just take Memri's headlines at face value?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Isn't it fascinating what happens when we don't accept Israeli excuses

So, hundred of thousands of refugees are just excuses, right. I see your hypcricy has no limits at all.

shafique wrote:But, the Arab Peace Plan says that an agreement must be reached over refugees - surely the Israelis can negotiate that the Jewish refugees be 'recognized' as part of this 'just' settlement?

Problem is the Arab Peace Plan doesn't ask for a just agreement about jewish refugees, it only mentions palestinian refugees. And Israel is more than willing to negotiate this, again it is the Arab countries that refuse.

shafique wrote:It is also fascinating how ingrained the tactics of personal attacks are - calling the issue 'spin' (which it is) is now tantamount to denying that there was a mass exodus of Jews! But hey, like FD I'm not surprised he's not surprised!

No, you are denying the expulsion of whole communities based on their ethnicity. Like you also join the ranks with holocaust deniers.

I see, the usual personal attacks begin.

No, seriously though - I couldn't find any reference to Erekat saying 'no Jews' in Palestine. Memri's own translation doesn't have him saying this.

You argued that "Israeli only roads" does not mean 'jews-only roads' - so therefore 'no Israeli settlers' does not mean 'no Jews'.

As for refugees - I'm not denying anything, I'm just saying your making out it is an issue to refuse the Arab Peace Plan over is pretty flimsy. Have the PA refused to negotiate on this point as part of the 'just solution' they are asking for?

I didn't think so.

cheers,
Shafique

Here's the link to MEMRI's translation of the Erekat interview in June 09:
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3413.htm

I can see that the Zionist Organisation of America spun this story as 'PA's Erekat: No Jews Allowed In Palestinian State'

http://calevbenyefuneh.blogspot.com/200 ... ed-in.html

but I'm surprised that you seem to have fallen for the spin, for even the Zionist entry gives Memri's translation saying Erekat only referred to Israeli settlers.

But then again, perhaps I didn't read the translation carefully enough. Can you find where he said 'no Jews'??

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:You argued that "Israeli only roads" does not mean 'jews-only roads' - so therefore 'no Israeli settlers' does not mean 'no Jews'.

Silly Shafique, playing silly word games. Every Israeli settler is jewish (AFAIK), not every Israeli is a jew. I hope you can follow this. A stork is a bird, but not all birds are storks.
It is not a secret the PA sees every jewish settler as illegal, like you do. Illegal means they would have to leave. Or did you change your opinion now and are you arguing jewish settlements are legal? Didn't think so.

shafique wrote:As for refugees - I'm not denying anything, I'm just saying your making out it is an issue to refuse the Arab Peace Plan over is pretty flimsy. Have the PA refused to negotiate on this point as part of the 'just solution' they are asking for?

At the moment the PA refuses to negiotate about anything.

I'm not the one playing silly word games. I'm just trying to verify your assertion that Erekat said the PA wanted 'no jews' in Palestine:

Flying Dutchman wrote:The PA wants a jew free Palestine,

Your only evidence is that Erekat said that he wanted no Israeli colonialists in an independent Palestine.

So, either back up your claim or admit you were taken in by the spin which said

shafique wrote:I can see that the Zionist Organisation of America spun this story as 'PA's Erekat: No Jews Allowed In Palestinian State'

http://calevbenyefuneh.blogspot.com/200 ... ed-in.html

You really can't have it both ways - either 'Israeli-only' roads = 'jews only roads' or 'no Israeli settlers' doesn't mean 'no Jewish citizens'. I see that we now both believe that the colonies are 'jewish only' and that all the residents using these 'colonialist only' roads will be Jewish. I even read that there's a law saying that Palestinians aren't allowed to be carried in Israeli cars - but that's an example for the 'Apartheid' thread.

So far no where is it stated that the Palestinians won't allow Palestinian Jews, Christians, Druze etc to be Palestinian citizens of the independent state. As the colonialists (who happen to be Jewish) are living on illegally aquired land (according to international law), when the occupying power leaves, they need to leave as well. If they want to emigrate into Israel, then it is up to the Government of Palestine to decide whether to allow these foreign nationals the right to enter/stay etc.

International law says 'occupation ok', colonies/settlements illegal. No dispute about this at the international court of justice - which makes this statement very interesting:

Flying Dutchman wrote:It is not a secret the PA sees every jewish settler as illegal, like you do.

Every colonialist/settler is illegal under international law - even if they were Muslim, Martians or Atheists - the law says that an occupying power cannot take the land for its own use and settle its people there.

I guess you are applying the principles listed in the thread 'Basic Truths' - where it is stated that anyone opposing Israel's illegal actions must be anti-semitic. But the law is the law, illegal colonies are illegal regardless of what religion the colonialists follow.

I asked for your claim that the PA wants no jews in Palestine - so far you have only shown they don't want colonialists after independence.

I can see why you didn't give a reference initially to your 'jew-free' claim. I could characterise your statement as libelous - but let me just settle on the fact it is unfounded (so far).

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:At the moment the PA refuses to negiotate about anything.

Did you read the first post of this thread?

The Arab Peace Proposal incorporates elements that need negotiating - eg the details of the 'just' settlement to the refugee problem.

Therefore, you either have a memory issue (perhaps you've forgotten that this thread is about Palestinian diplomatic efforts to move the peace process forward), or you are succumbing to misinformation.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Your only evidence is that Erekat said that he wanted no Israeli colonialists in an independent Palestine.

It is also that the PA puts the death penalty on selling property to jews. Also the convenant of Hamas states that one of their aims is to torment and kill jews.

shafique wrote:You really can't have it both ways - either 'Israeli-only' roads = 'jews only roads' or 'no Israeli settlers' doesn't mean 'no Jewish citizens'. I see that we now both believe that the colonies are 'jewish only' and that all the residents using these 'colonialist only' roads will be Jewish. I even read that there's a law saying that Palestinians aren't allowed to be carried in Israeli cars - but that's an example for the 'Apartheid' thread.

It really isn't difficult. Not all Israeli's are jews. the Israeli only roads are also used by arabs and druze to visit their family in the Westbank. Or to travel from one Israeli city to another via the Westbank.

shafique wrote:I guess you are applying the principles listed in the thread 'Basic Truths' - where it is stated that anyone opposing Israel's illegal actions must be anti-semitic.

No, I don't. Anti-semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel must be clearly disguinished. Some warning signs for me are:

-Out of all proportion singling out Israel especially compared to any other party in the Middle East. Also known as double standards.

Shafique: check

-Comparing Israel to the Nazi's

Shafique: check

-Exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs, like controlling the and the financial markets

Shafique: check

-Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust.

Shafique: check

FD makes claim that PA wants a Jew-free Palestine.

Shafique asks for evidence.

FD says Erekat said this in an interview with a Jordanian newspaper.

Shafique finds interview, looks for this quote - concludes it's spin.

FD launches personal attacks.

Am I missing something here?



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Therefore, you either have a memory issue (perhaps you've forgotten that this thread is about Palestinian diplomatic efforts to move the peace process forward), or you are succumbing to misinformation.

Unilateral proposals can hardly be qualified as negiotiating. At the moment the PA refuses to join the negiotiation table until their demands are met.

Unilateral declarations are a diplomatic move which shows that it is the Israelis that is stalling in the peace process - the Palestinians want to implement the Arab Peace Plan which includes negotiating over refugees, a peaceful end to the occupation, a withdrawal of Israel from land captured in war in 1967.

Who is not negotiating?

Just as it appears that there isn't a quote (after all) from Erekat saying the PA wants a Jew-free Palestine, there isn't any substance to the 'belief' that:

Flying Dutchman wrote:[At the moment the PA refuses to negiotate about anything.

On the contrary, the PA is asking for Israel to step up and enter into a peace agreement that the majority of those in UN have voted in principle for - see 'Basic Truths' thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

So, FD says the PA want a Jew-free Palestine, and yet can't come up with a quote to back this up.

On the other hand, this is what the PA themselves say:

Palestinian prime minister: Jews would be welcome in future state
by Brent Gardner-Smith, Aspen Daily News Staff Writer
Sunday, July 5, 2009

Palestinian National Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said Saturday that Jews would enjoy freedom and civil rights in a future Palestinian state.
...
“Jews to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel,” Fayyad said.
...

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/135325


Hmm - which is spin, which is reality?

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting development. The Israel announced that Jews who sell land to Arabs will face execution.

Are you in denial FD, or do you just want to 'wish away' the fact that the Palestinian Prime Minister is not living up to the Israeli spin that they want a 'Jew-free Palestine'?

shafique wrote:So, FD says the PA want a Jew-free Palestine, and yet can't come up with a quote to back this up.

On the other hand, this is what the PA themselves say:

Palestinian prime minister: Jews would be welcome in future state
by Brent Gardner-Smith, Aspen Daily News Staff Writer
Sunday, July 5, 2009

Palestinian National Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said Saturday that Jews would enjoy freedom and civil rights in a future Palestinian state.
...
“Jews to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel,” Fayyad said.
...

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/135325


Hmm - which is spin, which is reality?

Cheers,
Shafique

First all jewish people have to leave and just to make sure they donot return, put the death penalty on anybody selling property to jews. I know you want to ignore this, put that's apartheid for you. I guess Fayyad also is againt this death penalty. It is just a continuation of the Jordan occupation (the other Palestinian state) of the Westbank, when they expelled or killed or jews.
Just look at Gaza, it is completely free of jews.

The Prime Minister of Palestine is quite clear - Jewish Palestinian citizens are not going to be discriminated against. This is hardly a desire for a 'Jew free' Palestine. I asked you for evidence for your belief, you gave a vague reference to Erekat and on investigation he only said he wants foreign citizens to leave (he said 'Israeli setters').

It appears that a basic tenet of your beliefs is proving to be based not on evidence, but on spin. You accused Erekat of saying the PA want a Jew-free Palestine, and yet this is found to be false.

It seems to be a wilful equating of illegal Israeli Colonialists (illegal under international law, as emphasised by the EU this week) - with anti-semitism. Wanting an occupyier who has constructed illegal colonies/settlements to leave is just asking for justice.

Why should any non-Palestinian citizen (of whatever religion) be given automatic leave to reside in Palestine? Shouldn't the Government be given the power to decide who it allows to immigrate to its land?

Surely the fair thing is to allow the same rights to Palestinians who want to emigrate to Israel, to Israelis who want to emigrate to Palestine. Why should one party have more or less rights?\

Will you at least concede that the PM clearly states that Jewish citizens of Palestine are welcome?

Cheers,
Shafique

Just look at Gaza, it is completely free of jews.

A totally bullsh..t quote from FD.
In the past history we never heard of two pieces of land called "west bank" and "gaza strip". Therefore one must ask why the palestinian arabs are left or forced to flee into these lands despite being within the borders of israel? If someone continually deceides to present idiocy than noone stops them as it all comes for free, just like the policies of israel..

Sure Fayyads words indicate his goal is not a jew free Palestine. His words sounds pretty hollow though, considering the fact is government is endorsing the death penalty for Palestinians selling property to jews? Do you condemn that policy?

there is this cancer growing inside israel, while the worlds powerful nations in the west mainly USA knows the cause and the cure, still continues to ignore and help the dieasese to spread further, inciting the death, while the Saudis being the powerfull in the ME, knows the cause and the cure from their side and use their own methods and drugs to curb the dieasese from its source..

Now if the saudies do know how to curb it than I can only take my hats off.

Of course if they injected drugs when there was no cancer at all than it would be poisonous and I would join you to condemn them then…

So, do show some decency FD, will you....

Berrin wrote:there is this cancer growing inside israel, while the worlds powerful nations in the west mainly USA knows the cause and the cure, still continues to ignore and help the dieasese to spread further, inciting the death, while the Saudis being the powerfull in the ME, knows the cause and the cure from their side and use their own methods and drugs to curb the dieasese from its source..

Now if the saudies do know how to curb it than I can only take my hats off.

Of course if they injected drugs when there was no cancer at all than it would be poisonous and I would join you to condemn them then…

So, do show some decency FD, will you....

Recently Israeli scientists announced a breakthrough in treating/curing cancer using nano-particles. Of course this will be boycotting by Arab states. They rather let their people die then accepting Israeli medicine.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Sure Fayyads words indicate his goal is not a jew free Palestine.

I guess this is progress.

Flying Dutchman wrote: His words sounds pretty hollow though, considering the fact is government is endorsing the death penalty for Palestinians selling property to jews? Do you condemn that policy?

Yes, of course I condemn any policy that says Palestinians should be killed if they sell to Jewish (but I suspect you mean Israeli) people.

But then again, given your 'evidence' in this thread about what Erekat said, I'd rather take the Palestinian's PM word for it over yours. Can you show me where the PA say it is ok for Palestinians to be killed for selling their land to non-Palestinians or even Palestinian Jews?

I have to say though, you seem to be holding the Palestinians to different standards from the Israelis - their words ring pretty hollow when it comes to making peace (eg 'freezing settlements' and then still allowing a higher house construction per capita than in Israel.. what we would call spin).

Cheers,
Shafique

FD - perhaps you can clarify, I couldn't find a law/fatwa that said it was illegal to sell lands to Jews. I could find the PA passing laws saying it was illegal to sell Palestinian land to foreign nationals, and especially nationals of the occupying Israeli power. They classify this as treason and seek the death penalty for this.

I don't condone the killing of people for this crime - on the basis that I don't think it's high treason. However, I couldn't find the 'Jew' part in this law.

Are you playing word-games like you did with Erekat's quote? Or is there a PA law I'm missing.

It is now strange that you can argue that there is no Apartheid because the Israeli law doesn't put in writing that it discriminates - but you don't apply the same logic with the Palestinians. Hmm.

I presume you also condemn the Israeli's who refuse to sell land to non-Jews:

In the Washington Post, Barton Gellman asserted that:
[The Palestinian law] is not without parallels, penalty aside, in Israel. Keren Kayemet [the Jewish National Fund], a cooperative that owned most of the Jewish land in the [20th] century's first decades, "by its regulations could not sell land at all, and could not rent land except to Jews," according to historian [Anita] Shapira. As recently as January ... one of Israel's two state-appointed chief rabbis, Eliahu Bakshi-Doron, issued a ruling of religious law forbidding the sale or rental of any Jewish land to Arabs.

The Israel Land Administration, which owns 93% of the land in Israel (including the land owned by the Jewish National Fund), refuses to lease land to non-Jewish foreign nationals, which includes Palestinian residents of Jerusalem who have identity cards but are not citizens of Israel. When ILA land is "bought" in Israel it is actually leased to the "owner" for a period of 49 years. According to Article 19 of the ILA lease, foreign nationals are excluded from leasing ILA land, and in practice foreigners may just show that they qualify as Jewish under the Law of Return

Cheers,
Shafique

no one asked them or needs their nano-particles when they know how to treat it with drugs and methods quicker and cheaper..

shafique wrote:FD - perhaps you can clarify, I couldn't find a law/fatwa that said it was illegal to sell lands to Jews.

Relgious authorities aligned with the PA use this fatwa:

Islamic Ruling on Selling the Palestinian Lands to the Jews

It is to be stated that Muslim scholars have unanimously agreed that it is haram (unlawful) to sell Palestinian lands to the Jews (...)
Should any Palestinian get involved in any of these activities, he will be considered fully aware of its consequences and satisfied with it – which means that he will be accused of disbelief and apostasy if he comes to deem it halal (lawful) to do so.

shafique wrote:The Israel Land Administration, which owns 93% of the land in Israel (including the land owned by the Jewish National Fund), refuses to lease land to non-Jewish foreign nationals, which includes Palestinian residents of Jerusalem who have identity cards but are not citizens of Israel. When ILA land is "bought" in Israel it is actually leased to the "owner" for a period of 49 years. According to Article 19 of the ILA lease, foreign nationals are excluded from leasing ILA land, and in practice foreigners may just show that they qualify as Jewish under the Law of Return

In practice foreign nationals, including Arabs can lease land from the ILA. And most certainly can Israeli Arabs lease from the ILA. Also there is no law in Israel that forbids selling private land to non-Jews, or non-Israeli's for that matter.

Anywho, this is my peace plan:

-a Palestinian entity will be created on the Westbank and Gaza. This entity can be an independent state or a loose confederation with Jordan. In my opinion a confederation with Jordan would make historically more sense.
-The borders of the Palestinian entity/state on the Westbank will include the Arab triangle of the Galilee, but will exclude the major Israeli settlement blocks on the Westbank. Jews who want to stay in the Palestinian entity must pledge loyalty to the Palestinian state, like everybody within Israel will have to do the same, including fulfilling all civil duties.
-East-Jerusalem will be the capital, with the old city placed on international rule.
-No right of return for Palestinians within the green line. Palestinian can resettle in Palestine with some kind of compensation.
-Recognition of the Jewish refugees.

Thanks, your peace plan idea is coherent and crystalises the Israeli desire to hold on to land captured in 1967.

However, I think it is a great starting point for negotiations.

Currently, what is holding up the negotiations is Israel's refusal to stop adding to the illegal (by international law) colonies in the occupied territories. Surely it makes sense to fully stop the building and sit down at the negotiating table?

It is this reluctance to come to the table in practice that has led to the flurry of Palestinian diplomatic activity - including the one this thread is about.

Everyone knows what the final solution will look like - pretty much what the Arab Peace Plan or Roadmap stipulates - the question is how many more people suffer on both sides before this happens.

Cheers,
Shafique

It is interesting that despite the fatwa mentioned, that the Palestinian PM made it clear that Jews +are+ welcome in an independent Palestine, and will be treated as any other human being (and will be treated just like others holding the same passports as they do - be they Palestinian or Israeli etc)

I think the root of the confusion is that in East Jerusalem, "Jewish" does equal "Israeli Zionist" when it comes to selling land there.

I also note that you don't condemn the ILA policy of not selling land to non-Jews - this is their rules and they own so much of the land. They aren't the government and can't make laws - just like the people who made the fatwa you referred to aren't in government either.

Please clarify - do you support the policy of the ILA not to sell land to Arab Palestinians or Israelis? How is this different from Arab desires to not sell their land to non-Arabs to preserve the historical presence in East Jerusalem etc?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I also note that you don't condemn the ILA policy of not selling land to non-Jews - this is their rules and they own so much of the land. They aren't the government and can't make laws - just like the people who made the fatwa you referred to aren't in government either.

What? ILA doesn't sell land to anybody, it leases out. And it leases to all Israeli citizens.

shafique wrote:Please clarify - do you support the policy of the ILA not to sell land to Arab Palestinians or Israelis? How is this different from Arab desires to not sell their land to non-Arabs to preserve the historical presence in East Jerusalem etc?

Again, ILA doesn't sell, it leases out and it also leases to Arabs...I think you have to do a bit more reading about the ILA.