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Berrin · Dec 03, 2009

Now, since EH is picking on the muslims for domestic violence against women, I invite him to explain why violence is so high in industrialized countries despite majority citizens being non-muslims?
Why does that happen even though average people are highly educated and conscious, live in raised standards and the fact that there is strict law and order to control affairs...

Table 2 - Domestic Violence against Women
INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES
Canada 29% of women (a nationally representative sample of 12,300 women) reported being physically assaulted by a current or former partner since the age of 16.
Japan 59% of 796 women surveyed in 1993 reported being physically abused by their partner.
New Zealand 20% of 314 women surveyed reported being hit or physically abused by a male partner.
Switzerland 20% of 1,500 women reported being physically assaulted according to a 1997 survey.
United Kingdom 25% of women (a random sample of women from one district) had been punched or slapped by a partner or ex-partner in their lifetime.
United States 28% of women (a nationally representative sample of women) reported at least one episode of physical violence from their partner.
ASIA AND PACIFIC
Cambodia 16% of women (a nationally representative sample of women) reported being physically abused by a spouse; 8% report being injured.
India Up to 45% of married men acknowledged physically abusing their wives, according to a 1996 survey of 6,902 men in the state of Uttar Pradesh.
Korea 38% of wives reported being physically abused by their spouse, based on a survey of a random sample of women.
Thailand 20% of husbands (a representative sample of 619 husbands) acknowledged physically abusing their wives at least once in their marriage.
MIDDLE EAST
Egypt 35% of women (a nationally representative sample of women) reported being beaten by their husband at some point in their marriage.
Israel 32% of women reported at least one episode of physical abuse by their partner and 30% report sexual coercion by their husbands in the previous year, according to a 1997 survey of 1,826 Arab women.
AFRICA
Kenya 42% of 612 women surveyed in one district reported having been beaten by a partner; of those 58% reported that they were beaten often or sometimes.
Uganda 41% of women reported being beaten or physically harmed by a partner; 41% of men reported beating their partner (representative sample of women and their partners in two districts).
Zimbabwe 32% of 966 women in one province reported physical abuse by a family or household member since the age of 16, according to a 1996 survey.
LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN
Chile 26% of women (representative sample of women from Santiago) reported at least one episode of violence by a partner, 11% reported at least one episode of severe violence and 15% of women reported at least one episode of less severe violence.
Colombia 19% of 6,097 women surveyed have been physically assaulted by their partner in their lifetime.
Mexico 30% of 650 women surveyed in Guadalajara reported at least one episode of physical violence by a partner; 13% reported physical violence within the previous year, according to a 1997 report.
Nicaragua 52% of women (representative sample of women in León) reported being physically abused by a partner at least once; 27% reported physical abuse in the previous year, according to a 1996 report.
CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE
Estonia 29% of women aged 18-24 fear domestic violence, and the share rises with age, affecting 52% of women 65 or older, according to a 1994 survey of 2,315 women.
Poland 60% of divorced women surveyed in 1993 by the Centre for the Examination of Public Opinion reported having been hit at least once by their ex-husbands; an additional 25% reported repeated violence.
Russia (St. Petersburg) 25% of girls (and 11% of boys) reported unwanted sexual contact, according to a survey of 174 boys and 172 girls in grade 10 (aged 14-17).
Tajikistan 23% of 550 women aged 18-40 reported physical abuse, according to a survey.
(Adapted from “Violence Against Women,” WHO, FRH/WHD/97.8, “Women in Transition,” Regional Monitoring Report, UNICEF 1999, and a study by Domestic Violence Research Centre, Japan.)

http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/digest6e.pdf

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

My salutes. Best possible reply anyone could have made. Go back to the original statistics from a trusted organization that hopefully has no conflict of interest.

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

Two answers for you to initially think over

1)Data for the middle east is not very good as it is not culturally acceptable to discuss this subject let alone interview people about it.

2)Crimes such as 'rape in marriage' is not deemed a crime or even acknowledged in some islamic countries, similarly for hitting your disobediant wife. In afghanistan Karzai was going to de-criminalise rape in marriage but changed his mind after international community pressured him.

the national ran an article but it is porr as doesn't show total figures - so u cant divide it against population:

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... /711129864
Almost one third of the women who approach the emirate’s shelter for victims of domestic abuse are Emirati, but there are many more who do not come forward, a forum on the issue heard yesterday.

Report from Qatar on femal abuse for 2009 - see page 82 - domestic abuse is not a crime!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21762454/Viol ... ri-Society

melika969 · Dec 03, 2009

thanks RT, some valid points,
Such studies in Iran will never result in a true answer.
Besides you can refer to Quran, for giving the right to men when they can beat their women:

verse 4:34: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. "

and you know what is the answer to diminish all the harassments, women wear abaya and hijab,women do not play sports in public,women do not sing and dance in public, and as much as possible they stay at home and being forbidden to have any interaction with men.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

Why does that happen even though average people are highly educated and conscious, live in raised standards and the fact that there is strict law and order to control affairs...

Logically, it means that if it were not for these strict laws, the proportion of women being abused in these countries would be higher. Either that, or the laws have no effect on men beating up women.

At least one woman in five is subject to violence. One in five - that's staggering. (And in Japan it is 3 in five).

It is little wonder that laws - both secular and religious - are needed to protect women from this violence.

To me, this is strong evidence that men should indeed be encouraged to abide by the restraint that is shown by religious men. Either that or segregate the violent men away from the women and allow the women complete freedom to roam free. We just need to identify the men who have the propensity to hit women.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 03, 2009

RT, I don’t discriminate between men in muslim countries and men in non-muslim countries. I condemn all the men that resort to violence, equally I condemn all women that drive men nuts in marriage, I just happen to make this post because someone was discriminative in his approach.

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

These statistics are based on surveys not on legal definitions. What a woman perceives as violence is the only important factor here. If 38 percent say violence then that is how they perceive it and no one has a right to enforce their definition of violence upon them to increase a statistic.

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

Berrin wrote:RT, I don’t discriminate between men in muslim countries and men in non-muslim countries. I condemn all the men that resort to violence, equally I condemn all women that drive men nuts in marriage, I just happen to make this post because someone was discriminative in his approach.

Women driving men nuts by irritating the crap out of them IS VIOLENCE.

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

dee7o wrote:These statistics are based on surveys not on legal definitions. What a woman perceives as violence is the only important factor here. If 38 percent say violence then that is how they perceive it and no one has a right to enforce their definition of violence upon them to increase a statistic.

The problem is we have a conflict - we have people saying "islam portrays equality beween man and women" and then in the next paragraph 'but if the step out of line u can hit them" ?

Can the wife discipline the man if he is disrespectful?

Help me make sense of it

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

Roadtester wrote:The problem is we have a conflict - we have people saying "islam portrays equality beween man and women" and then in the next paragraph 'but if the step out of line u can hit them" ?

Find me a muslim that says the Quran gives him the green light to batter his wife and I'll glad hit him whilst you hold him down.

Roadtester wrote:Can the wife discipline the man if he is disrespectful?

Help me make sense of it

Not physically - can you imagine how practical it would be to give women the right to discipline their husbands physically in a law?

What Islam legislated for though were rights and obligations on both men and women - one of the notable ones was giving women the right to divorce. Forcing women to stay in an abusive relationship is cruel in my book, and is a major issue I have with some church philosophy which only allow adultery as a valid case of divorce (so wife abuse is not grounds for divorce).

But all that makes for an interesting discussion in the religion forum and also begs the question asked - why are rates of violence against women so high in countries with strict laws against this abuse, females are emancipated and there is no restriction on the mixing of the sexes etc. (And, also where religion/Islam is not a factor).

Does it not point to the fact that we do need laws and regulations to protect women? Then doesn't the discussion become one of discussing what form these laws and regulations should take?

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 03, 2009

The problem is we have a conflict - we have people saying "islam portrays equality beween man and women" and then in the next paragraph 'but if the step out of line u can hit them" ?

You are right, but would you agree with me that God knows what he creates, means knows the nature of men and women(fitrah,nafs).
For example God knows that when women goes off her own way i.e starts nagging, demanding things that can’t be met, unrighteous, unjustified or insists haram will start irritating men bearing mind the role of them being the protector and provider of family.

Under such circumstances, God knows that no matter how hard men tries to avoid violence, their inner instincts or self-nature(with the help of satan) will push them towards some sort of violence. I guess this is why God doesn’t completely forbid i.e darabah. Instead he gives measure as to how far men can stretch themselves to save family and unity…Otherwise unjustified darabah (mild hitting) is haram and regarded as violence against women and in such case women are granted divorce against men.

And before men comes to this stage of darabah, men is guided by the sunnah of our prophet, e.g.first to have sensible talk to warn and settle the differences, if not worked to separate beds for a while and then if necessary apply mild hitting, if this too doesn’t work call for the help of family members to mediate…if mediation doesn’t help and women still continues to resist than divorce is granted..
Does this make sense at all?...

Now, muslim women should know all about this in islam and act accordingly, I can not say the same for non-muslim men and women since they are not aware how islam applies it…It goes the same for ignorant muslim men and women or men/women that continue violence despite their awareness of what God and prophet teaches and ordaines to mankind.

Can the wife discipline the man if he is disrespectful?

Having said men’s nature allow them some sort of violence when they loose patience, doesn’t mean that the same cannot be said when women loose their patience with men.. The only difference is that men physically created to be much stronger, and not as fragile as women..

So, yes she can try the same “as long as she stays within the measure/ boundaries set by God's law" and within the teachings provided by our prophet…
So in a nutshell we say that noone is allowed to go over the board without the facts and true evidence. If these facts not taken into consideration islam grants both men and women to divorce peacefully.

Have I been able to explain it all?.

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

shafique wrote:To me, this is strong evidence that men should indeed be encouraged to abide by the restraint that is shown by religious men. Either that or segregate the violent men away from the women and allow the women complete freedom to roam free. We just need to identify the men who have the propensity to hit women

Sounds like you have evidence that devout Muslim men beat their wives less than non-observant/less religious Muslim men?

Logically speaking, Muslims who are not particularly religious and do not follow the Koran literally would be less inclined to follow the instructions in the Koran to beat their disobedient wives along with the other misogynist teachings of Islam.

Moreover, less observant Muslims would probably find fewer causes to start smacking their wives around than devout Muslims - who tend to believe that their wife not following their orders and/or the instructions in Islam (not wearing bumblebee suits, riding as passengers on motorcycles, etc) on how women are to behave would warrant a beating, as you and Berrin both have said warrants some discipline.

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

event horizon wrote:Sounds like you have evidence that devout Muslim men beat their wives less than non-observant/less religious Muslim men?

It's called logic.

Islam, Christianity etc all teache men that it is not ok to batter your wife. It also says muslims should not drink. All the surveys I've seen say that men beat their wives because they do not have either the self restraint that comes with religion or that they were under the influence of alcohol which also reduces the ability to restrain oneself.

I do have first hand experience that the more devoutly religous people I know don't batter their wives or condone wife beating.

Have you stopped beating.. (I was going to say 'the monkey' - but then restrained myself, do you see how that works?

)

event horizon wrote:Logically speaking, Muslims who are not particularly religious and do not follow the Koran literally would be less inclined to follow the instructions in the Koran to beat their disobedient wives along with the other misogynist teachings of Islam.

This relies on your 'Quaint beliefs' about what God says in the Quran being true. Whilst you think its true, most of us agree it is quaint.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

Moreover, less observant Muslims would probably find fewer causes to start smacking their wives around than devout Muslims - who tend to believe that their wife not following their orders and/or the instructions in Islam (not wearing bumblebee suits, riding as passengers on motorcycles, etc) on how women are to behave would warrant a beating, as you and Berrin both have said warrants some discipline.

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

It is interesting that no one seems to be giving reasons for the high rates of violence against women in non-islamic countries.

Am I the only one that is shocked by the high rates.

If we believe that the laws are effective, does this not mean that these non-Muslim male populations are naturally violent towards their women, and that with strong laws we still have one in 5 women (or more) being hurt?

I guess that without these laws (most introduced in the 20th century)- the lot of these women would be considerably more miserable.

Therefore, aren't we really only quibbling over to what extent women should be protected by laws (be they secular or religious)?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

Indeed, violence against women is startling. If alcohol can be blamed for violence against women where alcohol is regularly consumed, then why is violence against women in countries where alcohol is prohibited/restricted equally as high?

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

event horizon wrote:Indeed, violence against women is startling. If alcohol can be blamed for violence against women where alcohol is regularly consumed, then why is violence against women in countries where alcohol is prohibited/restricted equally as high?

Going by Dubai's example, restriction may actually increase the incidence of drinking to excess - perhaps that has something to do with it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 04, 2009

then why is violence against women in countries where alcohol is prohibited/restricted equally as high?

Are you saying that every man who drinks knows the exact measure of alcohol where hitting and kicking women becomes legal?…So yes, if you feel like beating a wife, find yourself a good excuse… and blame the innocent liquid in the bottle. Now you must be feeling sorry that God in islam doesn’t give that excuse as a shelter.
You know what I called you before don’t you?
But anyhow since you enjoy to restrain your thinking capacity, I’ll go over it again and explain..

Everything on earth becomes functional within measure..

Assume you have a formulation to achieve something and that formulation has various elements to make it work…We say that if you deprive one element from the formulation it will not work, but if you apply that element (in moderation) that is already within the formulation it will work.

In this case we can say something like this:
God’s product is human
The spirit is the formulation (human nature)
The rage is the element
The effect of the element is the will to hit or show violence..
The degree of the effect means to find the balance…(the purpose of life - testing humans)

Take a look at this:
Deficiency : stupidity, cowardice, lethargy, submissiveness
Moderation: wisdom, courage, chastity, justice
Excess : slyness, foolhardiness, rapaciousness, tyranny

More examples…..

Stress is created within human nature…You can’t avoid it when you are faced with something that triggers it… like you can’t avoid the feeling of hitting someone when you are annoyed..
Mild strees will get you going and succeed something quicker and more efficiently, Too much stress will kill your concentration and be harmful to your mind and body..

A mum with annoying child can’t continue to behave him while talking so soft and forgiving all the time..When the going gets tough, she has to become firm..Means when asking something she has to raise her voice a little and stay firm, means mum is business. Whereas shouting loud will be harmful and have opposite effect..But if you were not given the quality of shouting within your nature you would not be able to adjust the pick and tone of your voice..(the theory is something like this)…

A pinch of salt on your food will make it tasty…More than necessary will be poisonous..

Boiling water is dangerous but a raw vegetable cooked in it within measured time will make it tasty and eatable..Too much cooking will waste and spoil it..

No one can deny the bad and good qualities within human nature..The purpose of creation is to make use of them without causing harm…The best people are those who achieve everthing they want without resorting to bad qualities within themselves.(Not even a tiny bit)….like the prophets, saints, islamic philosophers..but than again they submit themselves to the wisdom of God, in return they are granted ilm(knowledge) that leads them a peacefull life…

And sure, God truly knows that not everyone can be a saint…..so there we go there is justice and wisdom in everthing he provides and ordaines on us…

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

shafique wrote:
event horizon wrote:Indeed, violence against women is startling. If alcohol can be blamed for violence against women where alcohol is regularly consumed, then why is violence against women in countries where alcohol is prohibited/restricted equally as high?

Going by Dubai's example, restriction may actually increase the incidence of drinking to excess - perhaps that has something to do with it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Agreed. Logically speaking, alcohol can't be blamed for the high percentage of women in Muslim majority countries who are battered by their husbands. Some other element must be responsible for why a significant percentage of women in Muslim majority countries are beaten by their husbands.

Can't figure it out what could possibly be the cause of it......................

Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

shafique · Dec 04, 2009

event horizon wrote:Logically speaking, alcohol can't be blamed for the high percentage of women in Muslim majority countries who are battered by their husbands.

Only if you have a quaint belief that alcohol is not consumed in Muslim countries.

event horizon wrote: Some other element must be responsible for why a significant percentage of women in Muslim majority countries are beaten by their husbands.

Well, as the thread about the lot of women in Cairo says - it is down to the men not being religious enough, as well as poverty, illiteracy and also alcohol consumption.

But then again, I guess you feel you know more than the authors of the article you decided to paste and do blame religion for the harassment. As I said, perhaps another example of not reading what you paste?

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Dec 04, 2009

Can't figure it out what could possibly be the cause of it......................

ring ring...

- Who is that?

- Archimedes calling..

- why is that?

- Eureka! Eureka! Women like Event Horizon...

:bounce:

event horizon · Dec 04, 2009

Well, as the thread about the lot of women in Cairo says - it is down to the men not being religious enough, as well as poverty, illiteracy and also alcohol consumption.

Fascinating.

So Muslim husbands beat their wives as per the Koran *because* they are not religious enough!

Pray tell, on what grounds/reasons would a secular Muslim husband discipline his wife that a religious Muslim would not?

shafique · Dec 05, 2009

event horizon wrote:So Muslim husbands beat their wives as per the Koran *because* they are not religious enough!

Another fantasy based on belief rather than any evidence.

Why let facts get in the way of a good prejudice - eh?
:bigsmurf:

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 05, 2009

Are you having difficulty with the question, shafique?

Pray tell, on what grounds/reasons would a secular Muslim husband discipline his wife that a religious Muslim would not?

shafique · Dec 06, 2009

event horizon wrote:Are you having difficulty with the question, shafique?

Pray tell, on what grounds/reasons would a secular Muslim husband discipline his wife that a religious Muslim would not?

Well, if by 'secular' you mean a person who does not follow all the rules God has laid down in the Quran - then it is quite simple - you just add a 'not' in front of what God has actually instructed men and women to do in the Quran.

God has said:
Men should respect women and are not allowed to hit/discipline them, unless it is after first talking to them, explaining what the issue is, then spend a period away from the marital bed (you'll understand this a bit better when you're a bit older), then if the wife does not reform apply the physical discipline as allowed by God.

In other words, a person who does not follow Islam to the letter may hit their wives like the ladies who face violence around the world face each minute - where they are hit in anger by a man who is exerting power over the women and has to resort to violence and not calm rational discussion.

See - if you just read the Quran rather than take quotes from your usual web-sites, you may actually learn what Islam teaches rather than what you think it means.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 06, 2009

In other words, a person who does not follow Islam to the letter may hit their wives like the ladies who face violence around the world face each minute

I'm sorry, how does this reply relate to the question asked?

Are you having reading comprehension problems again?

I asked, for what reasons would a secular Muslim husband hit/reprimand/discipline/ground his wife that a religious Muslim husband would not?

shafique · Dec 06, 2009

I have to admit, yes I am having trouble comprehending your questions.

You want reasons that a non-practicing Muslim would use to beat their wives that a practicing Muslim would not also use?

Non-practicing Muslims can also follow God's commandments and not strike their wives in anger, when drunk etc - so there is no reason for them to act like the men in the West who batter one in 5 women.

Given that a practicing Muslim would not arbitrarily beat their wife (eg in anger), wouldn't it be easier to list the limited conditions that God says merit a wife being disciplined. These reasons have been posted a few times before in the articles about Islam's treatment of women.

I take it those were too long for you to read?

If not, just do a search - here or on Google.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 07, 2009

Given that a practicing Muslim would not arbitrarily beat their wife (eg in anger), wouldn't it be easier to list the limited conditions that God says merit a wife being disciplined. These reasons have been posted a few times before in the articles about Islam's treatment of women.

Agreed - a practicing Muslim husband will believe that he has the right to give his wife 'time outs' and, if she is still disobedient after a talk and a time out, he'll smack her around a bit.

Whereas a secular Muslim husband may be appalled at the idea of ever smacking his wife around - let alone the belief that the wife is subordinate to the husband. He, therefore, will never beat his wife and there will be more equality in their relationship.

Additionally, a secular Muslim husband will have fewer reasons to become angry at his wife for what she wears, who she talks to or if she doesn't obey his commands - as the Koran says that women are to obey their husbands and good Muslimahs are the ones who obey their husband.

Islam teaches that a wife is to dress a certain way and obey her husband. On the other hand, a secular Muslim husband may not care if the wife ventures out of the home wearing normal clothing because he believes that men should restrain themselves as opposed to the belief in Islam that men have no control over their actions and women must dress appropriately.

For these reasons, it would be logical to assume that secular Muslim husbands who do not heavily drink will be less likely to beat their wives than devout Muslim husbands who adhere to the misogynist teachings of the Koran and hadiths.

shafique · Dec 07, 2009

Cool, so I've answered your question - and I agree that practicing Muslim men won't beat their wives in anger.

When you are a bit older, this will make sense to you - but it is hitting women in fits of anger that is a hallmark of violence against women. It takes a cold hearted bastard to sit a woman down, discuss what is wrong, keep away from the marital bed for a period of time, and then hit a woman out of hatred. Yes there are men who are cold-hearted bastards and Muslims - and in that case God says women can divorce them.

Compare and contrast that with the incidences of violence against women this thread has been highlighting.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 07, 2009

Agreed - the Koran says that women who are disobedient to their husbands are to be grounded and if they are still disobedient, her husband is to smack her around a bit.

In other words, the Koran sends the clear message that it's the husbands way or the highway.

It also would make wife beating (in civilized countries) a wee bit difficult to legislate in Muslim societies. I mean, who are the police officers supposed to believe - the husband who says he was following the Koran when he beat his wife or the wife who said the husband just beat her?

Oh, that's right, a woman's testimony is one half of a man's under Islamic law.

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