Why Do I Choose Islam?

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Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Melika asked:
melika969 wrote:So why did you choose Islam? you can choose all other religions and just take the parts you find logical. Or you can develop your new logical religion!


My reply:
shafique wrote:Excellent question Melika.

For me, I choose to follow Islam because it is the most logical path I've discovered so far. I've read up and discussed what other religions teach (and learn from the original sources and adherents of those religions where possible) and then compare it with the religion I'm currently following.

My logic works as such:

1. is there a God?
2. If the answer to 1 is no - then one can indeed choose to live how one wishes and adhere to humanistic teachings only.
3. If the the answer to 1 is a 'yes' then logically God will communicate His presence to mankind.
4. We need to be able to recognise God's communication with mankind and even establish direct communication with Him (so reject any religion that says God doesn't speak any more)
5. Look at all the claimants of revelation from God and look at the claims logically - reject if they fail some basic tests (eg. the tests of Prophethood found in the Bible in Deut 18.20 are a logical set of tests for assessing whether a claimant of prophethood is true).
6. See what the religion offers - spiritually and socially
7. test against logic
8. Reject any answer that says 'but you should have faith and not seek to understand'
9. Once satisfied that a set of commandments is from God and is logical, don't pick and choose - follow.

Thus far, Islam satisfies all the above criteria - provided one believes there is a God. (There is another set of logical arguments for deciding whether there is a Creator - but I've glossed over that, one has to decide whether you stay at 2 or jump to 3 and then on to 9 ).

Cheers,
Shafique

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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
melika969 wrote:Shaf, I have no problem with starting a new thread, but as event horizon mentioned you should come down of your teacher student position!

For the number 1 to 3 I m gonna take them for granted in this debate cause they are common in most acceptable religions nowadays,

For number 4, you stated that “we need to be able to recoginse God’s communication with mankind” and in the end you mentioned “so reject any religion that says God doesn't speak any more”

In Islam the prophet strictly stated that he is “Khatam-ul-nabiyin”, the last of the prophets, this has been said by God in Quran too “:

Sura 33: Al-Ahzab: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. (40)

So, why he is the last prophet and no prophet should come after him?
When even your logic states that God should not stop speaking!

(We will got to further numbers later)
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Excellent.

I totally agree that Muhammad, pbuh, is the 'Khatamun Nabiyeen' - God says so in the Quran.

However, I can't see anywhere where God says He will stop communicating with mankind - perhaps I missed that verse. He does say that the final religion is Islam and the final scripture is the Quran, but I couldn't see why I should believe that God is now muffled and will not communicate with humans any more.

I personally refuse to believe in something blindly and if there is no hope of God communicating with me, I may as well pray to the sea - I'd get the same 'feedback'.

I'll let you tell me what God says in the Quran about answering prayers and communicating with worshippers. And you can tell me whether it is logical to expect God to communicate with His supplicants or not - or whether it is logical to expect to hear nothing back.

I think you may be mistaking prophethood with God answering prayers and communicating with mankind in the ways He has always done. God communicated to non-Prophets according to the Quran (and for that matter the Bible) - eg Pharaoh's wife.

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Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
I can't see anywhere where God says He will stop communicating with mankind


What is the channel of communication between God and Human? I guess as you believe, Prophets are chosen by God to be a messenger, because of their outstanding features. so why do you think you can communicate with God by your own? If you were able, what was the need for religion? Everybody would talk to God and he would guide them trough life.

If you believe that God would answer your prayers, How could you differentiate it is God and it s not your own illusions? How could you know and understand God?
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Sure, Prophets are people who convey God's message to mankind.

The message of Islam teaches us how to develop a personal relationship with God, teaches us how to worship and pray and tells us what to expect in return.

God communicates with humans in the same way He has always done.

Being able to discriminate between one's own mind and God is also an answer to be found in Islamic philosophy - God tells us in the Quran what His attributes are and how He communicates or answers prayers.

The mind has a great ability to fool oneself - and meditation and praying to dead things (that can't answer back) do have some beneficial effects, however it is the actual communication with a living God that confirms the veracity of the method/theology.

It is God that is the reward of the worshippers - reaching the stage of 'Nafs-e-Mutmainah' or 'the soul at rest' where God is pleased with the soul and the soul is pleased with God. This has paralells to the concept of 'nirvanah'.

Basically God says He hears prayers and answers. He says he is closer to us than our jugular veins - so if we pray and ask for communication, He answers. No need for intermediaries or fancy rites/rituals -just a conversation with God and then we listen to whether He answers. Islam teaches us to establish this personal relationship with God.

Then there are the social precepts - again in the Quran and all should be logical, if they come from God. But I guess we are focussing on the spiritual aspects first.

All of these concepts are in the Quran - but have also been elucidated on by scholars and teachers.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Your long answer, included a lot “they teach us in islam” , “it has been stated in Quran” etc etc. As I said before I m not interested in approving things just because they are in some book. I am asking, you are talking to God with your own language, how do you understand that God is hearing you and answering you?
And how do you differentiate it from illusions?
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Here is a relevant verse from the Quran, 2.186:

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright.
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Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
yeah thank you, i know what is in Quran. I asked why do you believe it?
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Because I've tried it, and it works for me, and it also meets all the tests of logic I've thrown at it.

Edit - sorry, I forgot - yes I do pray to God in my own language and He has answered my prayers in ways that I know are just from His grace. I know it is not my own self deluding myself, because I use the tests found in the Quran! (I haven't found a better set of criteria to use)

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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Ok so let me get this straight, You test Quran with criterias which is in it?
Quran says that if you pray, God will answer you, and he will send some signals for you, which I would be grateful if you tell me what are those siganls, and then you are saying this is true! and you are sure that this is not your illusion casue it is in Quran! which you still didnt bring a reason why you believe in it.

And you are sure these are not your illusions. You are familliar with mental disorders of course. very talented people like John Nash, the winner of Nobel Economics suffered from Schizophrenia and there are a lot more weird diseases, so how can you be sure? test it with Quran?
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
melika969 wrote:Ok so let me get this straight, You test Quran with criterias which is in it?


I first check that the criteria are logical and then I use them - but the over-arching test is one of logic.


melika969 wrote:Quran says that if you pray, God will answer you, and he will send some signals for you, which I would be grateful if you tell me what are those siganls, and then you are saying this is true!


I can't worship God on your behalf and I can't convince you that my experience of God is true. I'm just answering your question about whether I pray to God and whether He lives up to what He says in the Quran.

I can certainly relate the personal experiences of God answering my prayers and of the dreams and visions I've had. One of them is the vision I had of whom I would marry - it happened in a very personal way and one that I actually dismissed with my concious mind as something that could not happen (I assumed that the lady I had dreamnt about had been married already and I took the dream to be just a represention of the 'type' of lady I would eventually marry). In the end, a curious set of circumstances arose where I got engaged and only after a few meetings did I realise this was the same lady.

melika969 wrote: and you are sure that this is not your illusion casue it is in Quran! which you still didnt bring a reason why you believe in it.


Yes, in the circumstances where I've asked for communication from God, God has been there. The reason I believed it was simply because it was illogical to believe it wasn't God.

melika969 wrote:And you are sure these are not your illusions.


Yes.

melika969 wrote:
You are familliar with mental disorders of course. very talented people like John Nash, the winner of Nobel Economics suffered from Schizophrenia and there are a lot more weird diseases, so how can you be sure? test it with Quran?


Perhaps I too am mentally deficient. God knows ;)

Edit - I don't claim to hear voices or see 'dead' people! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Ok Shaf, Reading your post makes me smile, so I think this is the end of the thread. You didnt bring any logical reason for God answering to you.

fortune tellers have dreams like yours, I dont think that was God talking to you. I called that flow of energies.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
melika969 wrote:Ok Shaf, Reading your post makes me smile, so I think this is the end of the thread. You didnt bring any logical reason for God answering to you.

fortune tellers have dreams like yours, I dont think that was God talking to you. I called that flow of energies.


Hey, I said the logic worked for me - it comes down to whether one believes God can answer prayers and whether this theory can be tested. If it can be, it should. That is my logic.

If there is no answer from God, how can one be sure that God exists?

Some people don't require this reaffirmation of their worship - however, Islam presents a way of life that offers communion with God. It is testing this claim that one can find out whether it is worth following the other precepts of Islam or whether to just dismiss them as an epileptic's rambling from 1500 years ago.

But at the end of the day - you asked why I chose Islam - and I've replied the best I could.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 01, 2009
Ok guys.. go on.. i am reading this & need to see where this thread is going to end..
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
Shafique I think the best bet would be if someone explains her "why she wouldn't feel God's communication" to herself or else why God doesn't answer her or her prayers?

Why are our prayers not answered?
by Ebrahim Saifuddin

Man has been asked repeatedly to ask Allah(swt) for that which he desires. To end suffering, pain or to acquire that which we desire the most, dua is made unto Allah(swt). In Surah Ghafir, Allah(swt) says:

“And your Lord says: “Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)” – [Quran 40:60]

Yet many of our prayers go unanswered and people often wonder why their prayers were not heard. All prayers made to Allah(swt) are heard by Him:

“When my servants ask you concerning me, (tell them) I am indeed close (to them). I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on me.” – [Quran 2:186]

Primarily, certain conditions apply to duas before they can be answered:

1. A dua for something that is haram cannot be made and will not be fulfilled. We cannot ask for that which is forbidden in Islam. Such duas would definitely not be answered. Hence for starters we should know that what we are asking for should be halal according to the Islamic Shariah.

2. Our duas should be for our betterment. If Allah(swt) feels that what we ask for will harm us then He will not grant us our wish. A child who has no sense of what is harmful often cries and weeps asking him mother to let him play with a knife. The mother knows that he can cut himself and thus expose himself to pain if he is given the knife and hence does not fulfill his request. Similarly we often ask for things that are actually indeed harmful to us. Due to our limited wisdom we cannot assess the harmful effects of it but Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows of it and thus in order to protect us, He does not fulfill our request.

I have often come across the younger generation who wish for a certain person of the opposite sex to fall in love with them. When these duas are not answered they get depressed and disheartened. Some actually wish that they would have a love affair with that certain person, not realizing that this dua falls under the category of a forbidden act. Then there are others who wish for marriage which is permissible in Islam but a dua fulfilling the first criteria does not mean that it also fulfills the second criteria as mentioned above.

A person wishes for wealth but does not get it. Why? Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows how we will spend that wealth. A person can think “but I would spend it in the cause of Allah(swt)” however they fail to realize that we dont know a fraction of what we are. Only The Creator does. He knows that we might do all the wrong things. These wrong things can lead us right to the footsteps of Hell. Hence Allah(swt) in His Divine Wisdom is protecting us but we in our non-existant wisdom fail to understand.

3. We should pray to Allah(swt) while having faith in Him and with humility. We should express our need for Him.

Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for Allah loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.

Do no mischief on the earth, after it hath been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing (in your hearts): for the Mercy of Allah is (always) near to those who do good. – [Quran 7:55-56]

Many a times we quickly say our Salah and hurriedly go through the duas taking it for granted that because we have offered the Salah, our prayers will be answered. This is not the way to make dua. We must be sincere to Allah(swt)

4. This is one of the most important factors which we have to keep in mind. Though we spend time weeping for what we desire, as soon as we leave the masjid or our praying mats we continue with that which is haram. We will indulge in all kinds of things that are forbidden by Allah(swt) yet we expect Him to do as we have desired. Why is it that while we refuse to follow and obey the commandments of Allah(swt), we expect Him to do everything for us? We should always try to prove our worth. Ask yourself why Allah should help you? Have your proven your worth to Him?

Suffiyan At-Thawri answered the question “why does Allah(swt) not answer my prayer?” very appropriately. He listed 10 points which I will list below:

1- You know Allah(swt) YET you disobey Him.
2- You recite the Quran YET you dont act according to it.
3- You know shaitan YET you have agreed with him.
4- You proclaim your love of the messenger(saw) of Allah(swt) YET you abandon his Sunnah.
5- You proclaim your love for Paradise YET you do not act to gain it.
6- You proclaim your fear of the Fire YET you do not prevent yourselves from sins.
7- You say indeed death is true YET you have not done anything to prepare for it.
8- You point out the faults of others YET you do not look at your own faults.
9- You eat of that which Allah(swt) has provided for you YET you do not thank Him(swt).
10- You bury your dead YET you do not take a lesson from it.

How many of these 10 points hold to be true with us? If one would assess themselves honestly, the results will be surprising.

5. Allah(swt) tests His creation in many ways. Many a times our prayers are not answered as swiftly as we desire because Allah(swt) wants to test our patience. Truly the following verses in the Quran correctly describe the nature of man:

Now, as for man, when his Lord trieth him, giving him honour and gifts, then saith he, (puffed up), “My Lord hath honoured me.”

But when He trieth him, restricting his subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), “My Lord hath humiliated me!” – [Quran 89:15-16]

And again it is said:

There are among men some who serve Allah, as it were, on the verge: if good befalls them, they are, therewith, well content; but if a trial comes to them, they turn on their faces: they lose both this world and the Hereafter: that is loss for all to see! – [Quran 22:11]

To conclude, we must be sure that what we wish for is halal and not haram. We must have faith in Allah(swt) and know that He will fulfill that which is good for us. Our intentions should be pure and the dua should be made with humility. It is important for us to refrain from that which is haram and follow the commands of Allah(swt) as strictly as we can. Losing faith in Allah(swt) is harmful only for us for He needs not that we have faith in Him. Prayers that are unanswered in this world are deferred to be rewarded for in the Hereafter. Most importantly, we must recognize that Allah(swt) tests us and thus should practice patience during such times.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
Everyone approaches religion and spirituality differently. For many people, logic doesn't matter - I've just stated that it does feature highly for me. Each to their own (eg my mum puts no weight on logic and spirituality - she has more 'faith' than I do)

The question I'd ask Melika is a simple one - how would one go about testing whether God's promise about answering prayers I quoted above was true or not? Is it a claim that is unprovable ?

Cheers,
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
Lol! Berrin guy is just the funniest one! Yeah God does not answer my prayers because I have a one black stoned heart! So I m suggesting you do not even come trough in threads that I m writing in, because you may got my spiritual disease too!


Shaf, you stated that the religion you believed in should worship a God which communicates with the prayers, so you have to prove it, I do not believe in such things, so I don’t have to prove them. You are supposed to bring a reasonable answer for what you believe in. As you mentioned earlier, that you don’t approve anything which can not be logically tested.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
melika969 wrote:Shaf, you stated that the religion you believed in should worship a God which communicates with the prayers, so you have to prove it, I do not believe in such things, so I don’t have to prove them.


What do I need to prove - that my religion says God answers prayers?

It does, you say you know what God says in the Quran.

Do I need to prove that God answers prayers and communicates today as He has always done? I've proved it to myself, and hence why I choose to continue following the Quran and call myself a Muslim.

melika969 wrote:You are supposed to bring a reasonable answer for what you believe in. As you mentioned earlier, that you don’t approve anything which can not be logically tested.


What is unreasonable about my explanation of my logic and how I tested the claims made in the Quran?

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Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
What do I need to prove - that my religion says God answers prayers?


I know what ur religion says, but I m asking you why do you believe it?
Maybe you believe it cause it is in Quran!! So you cant claim any


What is unreasonable about my explanation of my logic and how I tested the claims made in the Quran?


You didn’t explain any logic, what is the claim in Quran? For example your forehead will be green if you pray to God and God will answer you? What is the sign that is in Quran and has been proved and you can show it so I would believe it too.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
melika969 wrote:
What do I need to prove - that my religion says God answers prayers?


I know what ur religion says, but I m asking you why do you believe it?


Because I tested the claim and found it to be true. But at the very least, I chose to follow a set of instructions that did not say that the object of worship would not answer back.

melika969 wrote:
What is unreasonable about my explanation of my logic and how I tested the claims made in the Quran?


You didn’t explain any logic, what is the claim in Quran?


Apologies then for not explaining my logic.

The logic is (in a bit more detail):
a. follow only a set of instructions on how to live one's life that says the Creator who you have to worship is one who communicates with the worshippers - and isn't a Creator who has been silenced by men/priests etc.
b. test the claims that God communicates
c. if tests are not met, reject set of instructions

melika969 wrote:For example your forehead will be green if you pray to God and God will answer you? What is the sign that is in Quran and has been proved and you can show it so I would believe it too.


Well, if the Quran claimed God says this I may not proceed to testing it out, because it is silly and offends logic. However, God saying He is all-hearing and answers prayers wasn't silly and was a testable claim.

I'm struggling to work out what you are finding illogical? (Perhaps you are commenting on the results of my 'test' and whether I am correctly identifying God's communication vs a self delusion - but this doesn't affect the logic of testing to see whether God's claim in the Quran is correct and accepting the evidence after testing?)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
Lol! Berrin guy is just the funniest one! Yeah God does not answer my prayers because I have a one black stoned heart! So I m suggesting you do not even come trough in threads that I m writing in, because you may got my spiritual disease too!


It doesn’t escape my attention that your worst reaction comes in state of pitifulness after getting the right -spot on answer you deserve.(Bear in mind your allegations are of malice aforethought) Needless to explain why in return , we get childish menace response that is the world of someone claims to be or was an assistant lecturer at a university!..
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 02, 2009
^^^Thank you for your all sweet words! just one quesion, when did I claim to be or was an assistant lecturer?!!
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 03, 2009
melika969 wrote:Ok Shaf, Reading your post makes me smile, so I think this is the end of the thread. You didnt bring any logical reason for God answering to you.

fortune tellers have dreams like yours, I dont think that was God talking to you. I called that flow of energies.


Melikas question is good in that - how do you honestly know that you prayed and were answered and it wasn't just sychonicity, kismet etc?

Though looking at it the other way using a religious framework- god created you, so he made you prey to himself to then grant something he planned anyway. :idea:
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 03, 2009
Well, the philosophy of worship in Islam also makes complete sense to me. We don't pray/worship for God's benefit, but for our own spiritual and physical well-being.

For me, worship is food for the soul.

How one distinguishes between serendipidity and a consequence of God's actions is down to one's personal view of events and what went on before the seredipitous event.

Simply put, I say that people should sincerely ask God for a meaningful sign (for or against) and then wait and see what happens. If God isn't going to answer or give you a sign, then no worries - go on as before.

What is logical for me may be illogical to others, and vice versa.

As an aside, I've studied magic for a while now and one of the branches is 'mentalism' - which encompasses seances and also the art of 'cold reading'. It is a fact that people are suggestible and can fool themselves into thinking things are 'divine' etc when they are not. (For example, NN Taleb pointed out in his book 'Fooled by Randomness' - (or it may have been Black Swan, I can't recall) - that cancer cure rates for pilgrims at Lourdes is lower than the spontaneous remission rates in all cancer patients, and he made the point that going to Lourdes may therefore be seen as detrimental to health if you have cancer, as statistically staying at home has a greater chance of your cancer spontaneously disappearing. The point here was that it wasn't common knowledge that cancers can and do just disappear on their own.)

Sorry, a bit of a diversion. But suffice to say I don't view myself as particularly gullible - but then I would say that wouldn't I! ;)

Cheers,
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 03, 2009
you prob mean mediumship shaf - mentalism to my knowledge is general trickery used by entertainment magicians, some of the stuff the Derren brown does is quite amazing.

I have though been to one of these seance things out of curiosity and the woman said to me that there was a man present, my grandfather on my dads side, I never knew him and when my dad mentioned him he always called him 'pop'. The lady said a name which i did not recognise, and i said as much but then a few days later I talked to my parents and the name was indeed correct.

Now that puts me in a real spiritual conundrum, as the scientist in me puts it all down to chance, i.e the chances of guessing the name is high much like lottery numbers - but people still win. Or that there is something else to life - and its not within mainstream religion.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 03, 2009
Now that puts me in a real spiritual conundrum


In my mind, If you believe you carry a spirit/soul within you than you should believe in God, If you believe in God than you are welcome to read the creation and duty of jinn and angels in islam which will ultimately take you to the world of God in fascination…

This is called faith…Faith in creation therefore faith in the order of God in universe..

Yet, it is all left to our (human) senses and will to recognise the power of creation as part of testing in this life…Otherwise if God stopped testing us in this life, the eternal life in the hereafter would be meaningless.. and if God showed us what jinns and angels do upon God’s wisdom like he showed to prophets, in no time both non-muslims or unbelievers would become muslims and be strictly living life just like the prophets did.
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Re: Why do I choose Islam? Dec 04, 2009
Roadtester wrote:you prob mean mediumship shaf - mentalism to my knowledge is general trickery used by entertainment magicians, some of the stuff the Derren brown does is quite amazing.

I have though been to one of these seance things out of curiosity and the woman said to me that there was a man present, my grandfather on my dads side, I never knew him and when my dad mentioned him he always called him 'pop'. The lady said a name which i did not recognise, and i said as much but then a few days later I talked to my parents and the name was indeed correct.


The techniques used by these seance people is identical, and gets the same results, as those used by 'mentalists' such as Derren Brown. The only difference is that the magicians will be at pains to say they don't have mystical powers, whilst others may not make this claim (typically they won't claim to have powers, but allow people to think they have).

If you are interested, just do a search on 'cold reading' and you'll find material that explains how you too can get the reactions and results you've just described.

Roadtester wrote:Now that puts me in a real spiritual conundrum, as the scientist in me puts it all down to chance, i.e the chances of guessing the name is high much like lottery numbers - but people still win. Or that there is something else to life - and its not within mainstream religion.


It's not quite down to chance - it is more down to people's selective memories and the fact that people's minds and perceptions can be manipulated - frighteningly easily it turns out. Even when you know its happening, your biology kicks in and you are affected - it's a bit like the optical illusions that we've all seen, we know they are illusions and not real, but our vision/brain tells us otherwise.

Cheers,
Shafique
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