Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

shafique · Nov 26, 2009

I don't have any issues with you disagreeing with the experts who concluded otherwise - I just agree with them that the harrassment is taking place despite the teachings of Islam, not because of them.

I can't see any instruction in the Quran which says it is ok to grope women in the street.

I'll happily join you in condemning any muslim or Christian who gropes women, but I won't join you in blaming either the Quran or Bible for this.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 26, 2009

I don't have any issues with you disagreeing with the experts who concluded otherwise

Which experts are you referring to, the opinion poll of Egyptians?

It's also interesting to note several aspects in the OP:

1) Modern society and Islam are clearly incompatible, as is seen by the lewd behavior of many Egyptian men. Whatever Islam teaches in regards to how men and women are to interact holds little water when other teachings of Islam are put into practice.

2) Since people are getting married at much later ages, chastity until marriage, which can mean not getting married until one is 25, is out of the question for most people.

3) It's difficult in modern society to enforce the type of gender segregation that was the norm in 7th century Arabia and in tribal regions of the Muslim world today. Saudi Arabia is a modern society, but it can hardly be considered culturally modern. And, in fact, the Saudis have a police force that is exclusively dedicated to enforcing virtue, such as not allowing unrelated men and women to mingle. The Taliban had/has one as well and Hamas seems to have a morality police too. Therefore, to enforce Islamic morality, a police force needs to be set up to regulate who people can sit next to or what shops they can enter, etc. One needs to wonder if this is a way forward for society.

4) As the second article points out, even women who wear bubmlebee suits are harassed as well. Therefore, the Islamic justification that women need to cover up because they would otherwise be 'exposed meat' is still not enough to prevent men, who have no experience of how to act around women, from harassing them in some manner.

shafique · Nov 27, 2009

You really should take the time and read what is posted - both by yourself and what I write.

The issue is with the men doing the harrassment, not the women and certainly not what the women are wearing. The article you posted says clearly that the problem stems from men not following Islamic values - i.e. that Islamic (well, actually any religious) morals would prevent men from groping women.

Your solutions (even though they are sarcastic) seem to be anti-women and putting the blame on the women - you also seem to be labouring under the misconception that covering up in public is tantamount to separation of the sexes when it is actually a sign that the sexes do mix (as the covering up only applies when women are in the presence of men who are strangers).

Another example of quoting something you haven't read and jumping to the totally wrong conclusions. Sigh.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Nov 27, 2009

Long on words but short on answers.

I guess you are all mouth and no trousers.

shafique · Nov 28, 2009

I guess it is futile me answering your questions if it requires more than one sentence or words that are too long!

But thanks for posting a survey which says that the problem would be solved if the men followed Islamic principles. Not the intention you had, but then again it is only you own fault for not actually reading (yet again) what you are pasting.

Cheers,
Shafique

dee7o · Dec 01, 2009

event horizon wrote:Long on words but short on answers.

I guess you are all mouth and no trousers.

You want answers, I will give you answers. First of all I am Egyptian. I am Male. I HAVE LIVED in Egypt. I have ALSO lived and worked extensively in the Western World in addition to Dubai so I am able to make comparisons. I have Egyptian female friends and I have a sister who lived in Egypt for 10 years.
Hopefully, the above will satisfy you that I have enough experience to understand this topic and that I am not pulling crap out of my behind.

1- This has nothing to do with religion. Do not make this into a "Muslim men harass women because Islam is incompatible with modern society" discussion. 17 percent of Egypt is Coptic. I think you will find that their behavior in this respect is absolutely identical to that of Muslim men. In fact, you will find that those men who look more traditionally Muslim (long white gown, beard, etc) will never participate in such an activity and are usually the right people to seek help from in case of a problem like this one. The same would apply to anyone who looks more traditionally Coptic. The more religious, regardless of the doctrine; the less harassing.

2- This problem is not as horrible as the title of your post would have some believe. Yes, Egypt has the highest rates of sexual harassment in the world. However, the vast majority of this harassment is non-violent and often non-physical. They are mostly sexual comments. While I do not condone that, and no it is NOT okay, it is not the same as date-rape for example. I worked in the ER abroad and you would not believe the number of rapes we saw on a daily basis. You do NOT get that rate per population in Egypt.

3- This is a reflection of the frustration of a nation's entire gender and a lack of firm law. The main problem in Egypt is not as stated that men have to marry late because they cannot afford to do so early. Many countries are poor. The problem in Egypt is the law and the police force. There is very strict law enforcement against selected crimes but extremely slack enforcement against crimes like pick-pocketing, cursing, street fights, harassment of women, etc. Yes Egyptian men harass women but they also love picking fights in the streets and you can never get out of a bus with your wallet still on you. Look at it conversely though and you will find that murder rates are relatively low for such a poor country. Contrary to India and China, we have almost zero organized crime. We have few if any gangs. Egypt has such a high rate of harassment of women because Egyptian men are prone to "petty" crimes; possibly because they are not on the police's priority list.

4- Bringing religion into this was extremely cheap and straw-clutching. This is a problem of society. You can't just stick any random fact into your discussion on religion. There are tens of Muslim countries. This is a problem in the society of one of them. It is not even a problem that is restricted only to Muslims there. Rather it extends equally into the Egyptian populations of the two largest religions in the world. Taliban was an "Islamic" regime. Love them or hate them, they had no problems controlling sexual harassment (please don't start explaining their other problems to me or how they treated women - I know they are crazy imbeciles).

shafique · Dec 01, 2009

Thanks dee - very insightful.

Thanks for sharing the insights - it is refreshing to hear views based on reality rather than fantasies.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Dec 01, 2009

dee7o

I totally agree with a lot of what you posted. Your issue over Egyptian men getting married later in life because of expensive dowries is with shafique who provided the example of couples during Muhammad's time who were married at quite young ages because the dowry was inexpensive.

In fact, I believe there is one such union between an old man and a little girl.

In any event, you seem to be arguing that harassment happens because the police have not gone after men who harass women. Well, perhaps that may be true, but that does not explain the root causes of sexual harassment, only the proliferation of harassment of women in Egypt. I have also heard of reports of women who are harassed in other Arab countries, such as Dubai. However, since you said you have personal experience on this issue, I'll wait for you to confirm if you've ever witnessed/been a party to harassment of women in other Arab countries.

I also totally agree with your Taliban example and that traces back to what I have written throughout this thread, if you care to notice. While one may argue that certain Islamic practicies, such as prohibiting dating, etc, may be factor in the high incidences of harassment in Arab countries, I have also argued that bumble bee suits and gender segregation - both teachings within Islam, may work as a deterrent against public sexual harassment.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the only way for women to be completely free from sexual harassment is to lock women inside of their fathers' home and only move out when they get married and then they are confined in their husband's home.

What do you think?

melika969 · Dec 01, 2009

adding to what event horizon explained, I am going to ask you other question dee. you mentioned that this problem roots in the society, so in your mind what does make society? One very important part of society is of course the religion. And it is interesting how in countries like Egypt and Iran, which the religion interferes in every aspect of people's life, the rate of harrasment is higher than other countries.

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

melika969 wrote:adding to what event horizon explained, I am going to ask you other question dee. you mentioned that this problem roots in the society, so in your mind what does make society? One very important part of society is of course the religion. And it is interesting how in countries like Egypt and Iran, which the religion interferes in every aspect of people's life, the rate of harrasment is higher than other countries.

Hi Mel. I thought my last post was self-explanatory but I will break down/rephrase what I mean. You need to consider every factor in each country you discuss before deciding on the one to blame. For example Iran and Egypt:

Religion: Both are predominantly Muslim countries so religion (Islam) is a candidate for blame. However the problems with this logic include:
1- Egypt has a large Coptic population which behaves identically. This leaves us with the possibility that blame might rest with religion in general and not a specific faith.
2- As I have stated, the more OPENLY religious the man, the less inclined he is to harassment. Whether this is because of a true ethical code or simply hypocrisy to maintain appearances; does not matter in an analysis of cause and effect. For the sake of this argument no one cares about intention.
3- Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim country. However, it has significantly lower rates of harassment when compared with Iran or Egypt or Pakistan. That rules out the possibility of Islam. So you probably should analyse the other differences between Malaysia and the aforementioned countries. Possibilities would include literacy rates, income levels, pollution, psychological well-being, etc. Not all of these may be factors but some probably are.
4- The incidence of petty crimes like mugging and general acts of vandalism/corruption seem to coincide with these rates of harassment. Therefore, this discussion does not solely address an issue with harassment or even with women; it encompasses most forms of petty misbehavior. Even with this bigger picture, the cause of religion is negated because the example of countries like Malaysia still stands with all these forms of mass misdemeanor.
5- There are many religions whose most obvious personnel (clergy/immams....) have been found guilty of secretive sexual crimes. But how many such persons have you heard of who commit public harassment? It would have to be a mentally challenged member of these professions who would so openly risk his reputation regardless of whether he is a good or bad human being. Most of the harassment that occurs in Egypt is on the street and as I mentioned is not directly physical. Again, it does not correlate well to religious adherence.

You could take the above analysis and do a similar one for factors like poverty, lack of education, bribery, general corruption, political dissatisfaction and so on. Basically you could form a list of indicators and look for the strongest possible correlation and identify a single or a plethora of indicators that work for this phenomenon. This is actually the scientifically correct way of doing any form of quantitative analysis of a qualitative datum such as this. Let's be honest, hell will freeze over before any of us bother to do that even if we knew how to. I don't know if you trust what I am post (probably not) but I believe you will find much more concrete correlations with the factors listed above when compared to religion. Not only will you find that countries with high rates in those factors have higher harassment rates, I believe you will find that individuals suffering from the above problems are more likely to commit sexual harassment and there you will find your rationale for this crime that you find so repulsive.

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

event horizon wrote:dee7o

I totally agree with a lot of what you posted. Your issue over Egyptian men getting married later in life because of expensive dowries is with shafique who provided the example of couples during Muhammad's time who were married at quite young ages because the dowry was inexpensive.

In fact, I believe there is one such union between an old man and a little girl.

In any event, you seem to be arguing that harassment happens because the police have not gone after men who harass women. Well, perhaps that may be true, but that does not explain the root causes of sexual harassment, only the proliferation of harassment of women in Egypt. I have also heard of reports of women who are harassed in other Arab countries, such as Dubai. However, since you said you have personal experience on this issue, I'll wait for you to confirm if you've ever witnessed/been a party to harassment of women in other Arab countries.

I also totally agree with your Taliban example and that traces back to what I have written throughout this thread, if you care to notice. While one may argue that certain Islamic practicies, such as prohibiting dating, etc, may be factor in the high incidences of harassment in Arab countries, I have also argued that bumble bee suits and gender segregation - both teachings within Islam, may work as a deterrent against public sexual harassment.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the only way for women to be completely free from sexual harassment is to lock women inside of their fathers' home and only move out when they get married and then they are confined in their husband's home.

What do you think?

Before I answer you:
1- Was your above post supposed to be serious or sarcastic? Your tone seems to change half-way through the post as if you have decided to go with an opinion that is different from that which you started with.
2- After you read the post that I last directed to Mel's questions, could you rephrase the questions you have left if indeed there are any because that last post you made is a little incoherent.
3- Can you not generalize when addressing questions to me? Amish people are Christian and they are in no way liberal but that does not mean every Christian is not allowed to watch television or use the internet. Mennonites are a fast growing Christian community (or group of) that is gaining new rights everyday. That does not mean all Christian men have 93 wives. Similarly, some Muslim women choose to (or are forced to) cover their entire bodies and some Muslim families lock women at home. My family is Muslim and relatively conservative but all the women in our family are well-educated. Many of them were educated abroad and lived on their own during their student lives (so not locked up). No women in my family wear "bumble bee" suits. Some of them are not married at all and not a single one of them was physically abused at home in any shape or form. Also, given the fact that I have many friends, colleagues and acquaintances that have similar families, either we are not Muslim or something is wrong with your generalization of Muslims and Islam. Please rephrase whatever questions you have and stop trying to address us as guilty defendants and I am sure you will get the best answers we can provide. Then it is up to you to accept or reject what you want and to do so as publicly as you please.

shafique · Dec 02, 2009

Excellent discussion - melika I'm looking forward to your views on dee's replys to your questions.

eh - why not try actually discussing and listening to what someone says this time? Dee's taken the time to address the issues you brought up - please do him the courtesy of reading what he has written and perhaps think about answering his direct questions.

[sits back]

Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 · Dec 02, 2009

Shaf I hope you are not tired of sitting back all day till now,

Dee7o

The fact that you mentioned about other factors which can result in harassment, is correct. I am not a researcher, scholars should study that and I m sure there has been lots of studies regarding this before.

But for me, all other factors that u stated in Islamic countries, are results of religion and in particular Islam. So I see the root and origin of all those other factors brings harassment because of stupid Islamic rules, which interferes in every little details of life. And yes I know, other religions may have their own stupid rules, but it is just in Islamic countries where country laws are the same as religion rules.

Islam has rules for the way you eat, you dress, you talk, the way you walk, the way you take a shower, the way you buy, the way you sell, the way you date…
Believing in faith, praying so God will help you so no need to try, being hypocrite about your prayers, bashing others, restrictions on dress code and normal relationships which results in s.exual problems… yeah I know you are gonna say this is not Islam, but this is what is practicing as Islam today, and like Shaf you can not develop and promote your own version!

shafique · Dec 02, 2009

couldn't keep sitting back.

Melika - I thought dee made some very valid points which address the points you raise about Islam being the underlying factor contributing to this harassment in Cairo.

Firstly it was the fact that Christian Cairo dwellers act in the same way, secondly it was the fact that Muslims in other countries (eg Malaysia) don't harrass women - therefore, it is a Cairo (or perhaps an Arab) thing, rather than a 'Muslim' issue.

I thought also the point that religious people (of whatever faith) would be less likely to harrass on the street -doesn't this ring true to you, and does it not echo what the original article also concluded - that it was because men were not following Islamic principles that they hassled women, not because of Islam?

Perhaps you can elaborate on how the Islamic rules for men and women to not look at the other sex (let alone grope them) contributes to harrassment on the streets of Cairo?

Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 · Dec 02, 2009

Shaf, do you have any validated research results that shows harassment in all Islamic countries
(including Malaysia) is less than other countries?

For your last question, it is very simple. When you deprive people of opposite s.exes to interact in normal ways, it will result in mental complexes, when a man haven’t seen a woman in a normal dress and all he see in his life is hijab and abaya, the exposure of a toe of woman can make them stimulated! And when there is no way to fulfill the desire it will result in harassment. But if everything was in their right places from the first, there would be a balance with fewer crimes.

shafique · Dec 02, 2009

You may want to look at sites such as this:
http://channelingenergy.wordpress.com/2 ... tatistics/

However, I can't help but observe that you aren't addressing Dee's specific points that Cairo's harrassment is not as a result of Islam - because the Coptic Christian Egyptians also act the same way. It's a Cairo thing.

I also asked specifically which particular teaching of Islam gives Muslim the right to grope women - it appears you are saying that people who choose to not follow Islamic teachings on modesty have Islam to blame for their inability to control themselves.

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you?

)

Cheers,
Shafique

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

melika969 wrote:Shaf I hope you are not tired of sitting back all day till now,

Dee7o

The fact that you mentioned about other factors which can result in harassment, is correct. I am not a researcher, scholars should study that and I m sure there has been lots of studies regarding this before.

Scholars? What type of scholars? Sociology scholars? Religious scholars? Statisticians? Political Scientists? Psychologists? What do you mean by "scholars"?!

But for me, all other factors that u stated in Islamic countries, are results of religion and in particular Islam. So I see the root and origin of all those other factors brings harassment because of stupid Islamic rules, which interferes in every little details of life. And yes I know, other religions may have their own stupid rules, but it is just in Islamic countries where country laws are the same as religion rules.

Ahhhhhh. I see. Now I finally understand why you post in the manner that you do. It seems that you simply type what you FEEL is correct. That above paragraph you wrote encompassed everything wrong with this thread. This discussion was difficult enough when trying to correlate religion to harassment. All what has been going back and forth (well mostly forth) has been an analysis of two factors. Now you have written 4 lines which are optimistic enough to claim that the factors I mentioned are all down to Islam. The factors that I mentioned included (if my memory serves me right) illiteracy, poor education, lack of healthcare, political corruption, low income levels, general poverty, pollution....blah blah. No offense intended but how exactly are you planning to prove to me that all those factors have been caused by Islam or religion in general? I am really looking forward to reading this. I am not challenging you to anything but I think that it is my right to get some sort of validation for your opinions. I cannot simply say the earth is triangular and expect you to believe me. You asked me for a proper explanation and now I want one for you. Hopefully one that is not simply "I saw, I heard, I believe). I am prepared to listen to your rationale once you have one. You seem to genuinely disturbed by people who "have faith" without being able to demonstrate understanding. Please explain to me how that is different from what you have just done? You seem to "have faith" that religion is the cause of factors that may or may not be related to it (similar to how there may or may not be a God). Yet you give no demonstration of understanding. Please do not give me assumptions. Give me anything evidence-based (not copy-pasted) that properly addresses the 4 lines you have typed above and I will readily admit that I am wrong and that I have been typing nonsense. I am not asking you for statistics and numbers. I am simply wondering if you have a thought process regarding this or if you just WANT to have this opinion. I have answered your questions in a manner that I believe was moderately adequate. Now, I am asking you to reciprocate. I want proper reasons for the ambitious claims you have typed in the above paragraph. Don't take this in a rude way but I cannot continue to have a debate with your emotions any longer because we will never reach a result.

Islam has rules for the way you eat, you dress, you talk, the way you walk, the way you take a shower, the way you buy, the way you sell, the way you date…
Believing in faith, praying so God will help you so no need to try, being hypocrite about your prayers, bashing others, restrictions on dress code and normal relationships which results in s.exual problems… yeah I know you are gonna say this is not Islam, but this is what is practicing as Islam today, and like Shaf you can not develop and promote your own version!

This is truly too much. Can you think about the validity of what you type before you unleash it on us? When did I develop or promote anything? I am not preaching to you about my religion! I was simply stating the problems I had with your logic in relating two factors I felt were not directly relevant. That is "promoting my own version" of my religion?! I have not said a word about my religion or beliefs in this discussion. I did not mention Islam's views on harassment. I did not quote anything religious. In fact, I tried to lay-out as secular a rationale as I possibly could. If I had never heard of Islam, I could have made the same exact points! What the hell do you mean praying to God so "you" don't need to try?!?!?! How about you and I (a Muslim) compare the hardships that we have each had in our lives and I will leave you to judge who has tried harder!! Who told you that we are hypocrites in our prayers or otherwise? I might be. Shaf might be. But how would you know that?! Do you know us?? Do you for once have anything tangible to provide as evidence other than what you feel is true?? Do you not have restrictions on your own dress code? Would you walk around Paris crotchless? If not, why? Are you a hypocrite who creates restrictions that result in sexual problems?!?!?! Are there not restrictions on dress code in every bloody country on earth? Are you actually saying that your actual problem is with the DEGREE of restriction? That is hugely subjective and will obviously differ from person to person and place to place. There are Nudist Churches that are readily accepted in some countries. That is an example of absolutely no restrictions. Go to church naked. If you have a problem with that or think it is strange I am sorry to tell you this but, you are creating sexual problems. Again, jokes aside, offer some support to your opinions. Yes, we want to hear what you think. However, when you approach a contentious topic with potential for debate you should have something more than telling us opinions formed during god-knows what experience you have had with Muslim(s). Bear in mind that we are not those people that when forming your opinions you felt were "hypocrites" or did not "try". Try not to generalize. There are crap people everywhere and unfortunately that is life. It is just more obvious when it comes from a culture or a background you cannot personally relate to.

melika969 · Dec 02, 2009

and what is the red font for???

sorry it is long and red! I didnt read it!

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

melika969 wrote:and what is the red font for???

sorry it is long and red! I didnt read it!

Red is only so you can tell what I typed from what you did because I did not want to keep quoting every sentence. Don't read it if you don't want to.

melika969 · Dec 02, 2009

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Yes Shaf, I am saying useless restrictions and limitations will result in mental disorder. and I am not a man, I am a woman who lives in a country with tight Islamic rules.

About your question regarding to points which dee7o provided, from the first I was not writing about tha Cairo, I was talking about Islamic rules and its consequenses as harassment.

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

melika969 wrote:
You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Yes Shaf, I am saying useless restrictions and limitations will result in mental disorder. and I am not a man, I am a woman who lives in a country with tight Islamic rules.

About your question regarding to points which dee7o provided, from the first I was not writing about tha Cairo, I was talking about Islamic rules and its consequenses as harassment.

u live in Iran right?

dee7o · Dec 02, 2009

shafique wrote:You may want to look at sites such as this:
http://channelingenergy.wordpress.com/2 ... tatistics/

However, I can't help but observe that you aren't addressing Dee's specific points that Cairo's harrassment is not as a result of Islam - because the Coptic Christian Egyptians also act the same way. It's a Cairo thing.

I also asked specifically which particular teaching of Islam gives Muslim the right to grope women - it appears you are saying that people who choose to not follow Islamic teachings on modesty have Islam to blame for their inability to control themselves.

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Cheers,
Shafique

dude, just give up. Seriously, save yourself while you still have hair on your head.

shafique · Dec 03, 2009

melika - It is really up to you whether you really want to ignore what dee has just written (and yes it is in red and it is large blocks of text), but he re-makes his points well and challenges you on some specific statements that you've made.

He's challenging you to back up some of your general statements in light of the facts on the ground he's described.

If actual evidence and first hand accounts don't matter to you, then it seems odd that you asked me for statistics to show comparative rates of violence against women. If you don't read what people who challenge your views present as evidence or arguments, then it implies you only read/want to read evidence that backs up your current views. This makes for a shouting match and not a debate.

Dee has read what you have written and given his thought-out replies as to why he thinks they are mistaken. If you leave these unanswered, the impartial reader will have to conclude you have no answers to his points.

Cheers,
Shafique

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

shafique wrote:melika - It is really up to you whether you really want to ignore what dee has just written (and yes it is in red and it is large blocks of text), but he re-makes his points well and challenges you on some specific statements that you've made.

He's challenging you to back up some of your general statements in light of the facts on the ground he's described.

If actual evidence and first hand accounts don't matter to you, then it seems odd that you asked me for statistics to show comparative rates of violence against women. If you don't read what people who challenge your views present as evidence or arguments, then it implies you only read/want to read evidence that backs up your current views. This makes for a shouting match and not a debate.

Dee has read what you have written and given his thought-out replies as to why he thinks they are mistaken. If you leave these unanswered, the impartial reader will have to conclude you have no answers to his points.

Cheers,
Shafique

You are assuming that the person you are addressing is concerned with the impartial reader. I think the words "shouting match" are an accurate description of events.

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

Violence to your wife or any other woman is unnacceptable.

(well apart from obviosuly if they about to try to kill you!)

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

shafique wrote:You may want to look at sites such as this:
http://channelingenergy.wordpress.com/2 ... tatistics/

However, I can't help but observe that you aren't addressing Dee's specific points that Cairo's harrassment is not as a result of Islam - because the Coptic Christian Egyptians also act the same way. It's a Cairo thing.

I also asked specifically which particular teaching of Islam gives Muslim the right to grope women - it appears you are saying that people who choose to not follow Islamic teachings on modesty have Islam to blame for their inability to control themselves.

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Cheers,
Shafique

This prob sounds odd - but because of the segregation - i'm more wary of being a victim of gay rape here than in the west, because of the segregation and intolerance of homosexuality.

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

Roadtester wrote:
shafique wrote:You may want to look at sites such as this:
http://channelingenergy.wordpress.com/2 ... tatistics/

However, I can't help but observe that you aren't addressing Dee's specific points that Cairo's harrassment is not as a result of Islam - because the Coptic Christian Egyptians also act the same way. It's a Cairo thing.

I also asked specifically which particular teaching of Islam gives Muslim the right to grope women - it appears you are saying that people who choose to not follow Islamic teachings on modesty have Islam to blame for their inability to control themselves.

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Cheers,
Shafique

This prob sounds odd - but because of the segregation - i'm more wary of being a victim of gay rape here than in the west, because of the segregation and intolerance of homosexuality.

Let me get this straight. Gay rape? That is what keeps you up at night? In Dubai??? Or in Cairo or wherever you meant?!?!?! More prevalent than the west?!?!?! Because of the segregation and intolerance of homosexuality due to this being a Muslim country?? Are you people kidding me?!?!?!?! How long have you been here man!?!?!

melika969 · Dec 03, 2009

^^^you remind me of Redkite with all those question marks! I tought you were not gonna answer me as you preached Shaf not to keep on!

About "Shouting match", you should review your red comments and your above answer to RT,so it would be clear for you who is shouting.

And yes, what RT explained is one of the disorders I was referring as the consequence of useless restrictions.

the answer to your other question, Yes I live in Iran.

Roadtester · Dec 03, 2009

dee7o wrote:
Roadtester wrote:
shafique wrote:You may want to look at sites such as this:
http://channelingenergy.wordpress.com/2 ... tatistics/

However, I can't help but observe that you aren't addressing Dee's specific points that Cairo's harrassment is not as a result of Islam - because the Coptic Christian Egyptians also act the same way. It's a Cairo thing.

I also asked specifically which particular teaching of Islam gives Muslim the right to grope women - it appears you are saying that people who choose to not follow Islamic teachings on modesty have Islam to blame for their inability to control themselves.

You also seem to be saying that the harrassment would go down if there was less segregation of the sexes, or if women wore more revealing clothes. It seems you are saying that men not seeing women's bodies (outside of marriage) leads to mental disorders! This seems a strange argument to me -but perhaps I've misunderstood your point - are you advocating women dressing less modestly is doing society a favour? (You're not secretly a man, are you? )

Cheers,
Shafique

This prob sounds odd - but because of the segregation - i'm more wary of being a victim of gay rape here than in the west, because of the segregation and intolerance of homosexuality.

Let me get this straight. Gay rape? That is what keeps you up at night? In Dubai??? Or in Cairo or wherever you meant?!?!?! More prevalent than the west?!?!?! Because of the segregation and intolerance of homosexuality due to this being a Muslim country?? Are you people kidding me?!?!?!?! How long have you been here man!?!?!

obv it doesn't keep me up all night lol! And the chances of it are very small but I believe its more than the west.

i been around africa asia, couple yrs in middle east now, my observations and reports of crimes in newspapers have formed this belief.

Gay rape isn't always about homosexuality - it can be about power, and some men if they are not allowed to have sex will resort to desperate measures. Just look at prisons, where men can be temporarily 'gay'

dee7o · Dec 03, 2009

melika969 wrote:^^^you remind me of Redkite with all those question marks! I tought you were not gonna answer me as you preached Shaf not to keep on!

About "Shouting match", you should review your red comments and your above answer to RT,so it would be clear for you who is shouting.

And yes, what RT explained is one of the disorders I was referring as the consequence of useless restrictions.

the answer to your other question, Yes I live in Iran.

ummm....I didn't answer you but I also didn't ignore you. I don't think you even asked anything. Did you?

Again, red was for separation. Your text is in black and mine is in red. I would have used green or blue or purple. It just seemed like the most obvious color. The color was not meant to denote tone. No one was shouting at you. If I wanted to shout, I would have used capitals. Also, even if I was shouting (which I wasn't) I don't think you actually understand the meaning of a "shouting match". It does not mean let's get up and shout. It means that people do not actually listen to one another and that they just roll on their opinions without addressing concerns with their logic that have been put forth by other people. A shouting match does not literally mean "to shout".

About the question marks. To be honest that gay rape thing was too much for me.

Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

60 Percent Of Women Harassed On Daily Basis – Cairo

Go To

Dubai Discussions

Dubai Expat Forums

Dubai Business

Dubai Tech Discussions

Dubai Classifieds