Apartheid Comparison - From Those Who Know

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Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
It is really a statement of the obvious, but when the South African government officially compares Israel's racist actions to apartheid, one really can't dismiss it. However, the pro-Israeli lobby will give it a go.

Again, note that this news will typically be given more prominence in Israel than in the US (if it is mentioned in the media at all). The article is from an Israeli newspaper - and is mostly a denial of the basis of the South African stance.:

South Africa: Israel actions in East Jerusalem akin to apartheid

11.26.2009 | Haaretz

By Raphael Ahren
The South African government has issued an unusually harsh statement condemning Israel for approving 900 new housing units in Gilo and evicting Palestinians from their East Jerusalem homes, comparing Israel’s actions to the “forced removals” of the apartheid era.

“We condemn the fact that Israeli settlement expansion in East Jerusalem is coupled with Israel’s campaign to evict and displace the original Palestinian residents from the City,” the statement said. “South Africa is deeply concerned that these activities by Israel will only serve only to deepen the cycle of violence in the region.”

Israeli officials and Jewish leaders in South Africa condemned the statement. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said: “We deeply regret this unexplainable statement, which ignores key facts while presenting as realities nonexistent matters. It is highly misleading not to take cognizance of Israel’s repeated calls to renew peace talks unconditionally and without deferral. It is simply unjust to call the neighborhood of Gilo a ’settlement,’ or to conjure a phantasmagorical ‘campaign to evict Palestinians.’”

“One cannot equate building new homes for Israelis… in Gilo with the forced removals that occurred under apartheid,” said David Saks, the associate director of the South African Jewish Board of Deputies. “In the latter case, many thousands of non-whites were forcibly evicted from their homes to make way for white settlement; in Gilo, by contrast, no one is being forcibly removed to make way for new developments.”

Israel says the two Palestinian families evicted from homes in East Jerusalem’s Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood over the summer were living in buildings that have been owned by Jews since before Israel’s founding, and that a court ordered the evictions because the families had violated the terms of their leases.

Another leader of the South African Jewish community said that while individual government officials have occasionally invoked the apartheid comparison, it’s unusual for the government itself to do so.

A spokeswoman for the South African Zionist Federation, Bev Goldman, said the group “questions again why Israel is always judged to a standard different from that of the rest of the world.” She said the statement would “do little more than create and heighten tensions within the local Jewish community and with South Africa’s radical pro-Palestinian elements.”

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
By the title I thought this would be about the treatment of infidels in KSA, the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan or the fact that the PA put the death penalty on selling lands to jews.

All Israeli Arabs have equal rights. They enjoy the educational system, health care and so on. Of course the Israel bashers want them to suffer instead of to prosper for political reasons. The Arab population in Israel is amongst the most prosperous in the ME.
"Fun fact" is that in the Westbank relatively more jews are expelled from their illegal houses than Arabs. A
nother fact is that Gilo is not in East-Jerusalem, but in South-west Jerusalem. Journalists donot seem to have maps anymore.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
Hmm - so there isn't apartheid like policies going on.

Well, let's see what the same Israeli newspaper had to say on the issue:

It smells like discrimination

The widening gap between Israel's Jewish majority and the Arab minority is worrying and poses many questions as to the country's Arab-Jewish coexistence. Nearly every day statements are heard from senior figures concerning the legitimacy of Arab citizens, and unbridled attacks have become routine: MK Israel Hasson of Yisrael Beiteinu is talking about a second War of Independence against the Arab citizens in Israel, MK Otniel Schneller of Kadima is talking about establishing task forces to examine the possibility of population exchanges and the head of the Shin Bet security service is talking about the Arabs as a strategic threat.
....

The discrimination against Arabs cries out to the heavens in every area. Half of the Arab population is under the poverty line, and the government's policy toward them has made a significant contribution to worsening their depressed state. For 60 years, there has been talk of equality but, in fact, all the talk has been just empty slogans. The preferential treatment of Jews over Arabs can be seen and smelled everywhere.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/857766.html
(From May 2007)

Unfortunately, even within Israel, the non-Jews are discriminated against - from building permits to educational facilities. Interesting that FD thinks it is otherwise.

Now, what is happening in Occupied Palestine is worse - but it is never-the-less interesting to compare FD's beliefs with reality.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
It seems that the discrimination in the Israeli justice system has been recognised by an Israeli Judge:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10896.shtml

As in South Africa, there are still many decent people who are willing to speak out against injustice committed by the State.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
This is kinda old news - Jimmy carter has called the situation akin to Aparteid about year ago.

South africa has a cheek anyway with the treatment of its own people, ten years of democracy and people have worse litteracy than when it was under colonial rule!
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
So the Israeli law system works, also for Israeli Arabs, great!
There is discrimination in place concerning Israeli Arabs. They donot have to serve in the army or donot have to perform any civil duties. It is more positive discrimination than negative discrimination. The comparison with the apartheid regime in South Africa doesn't make any sense. Israeli arabs have full voting power. Equal access to universities and Israeli hospitals and so on. They have freedom of speech and protest.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
Parts of the Israeli justice system works - and it says that the Israeli Arabs face discrimination.

Hence the valid references to Apartheid.

This judge said it eloquently:
Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.

Or Commission Report, page 33, Israel Studies, vol. 11, no. 2, 25-53

As for discrimination in education and building permits, this is also well documented and I'm sure FD is aware of the statistics (eg. $ per head on Israeli Arabic language education vs $ per head on Hebrew speaking schools)

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
The fact that Arabs can go to an Israeli court concerning discrimination and win, just shows Israel is not an apartheid state.
Even South African officials expressed their digust of hijacking the term apartheid for anti-semitic goals.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:The fact that Arabs can go to an Israeli court concerning discrimination and win, just shows Israel is not an apartheid state.
Even South African officials expressed their digust of hijacking the term apartheid for anti-semitic goals.


So can you offer an explanation why the South African government has spoken out in this way in spite of the vast Jewish population it harbors? Also, why the talk of inequality in Israeli press and by a Jewish judge?

Also, the last I read, we were talking about discrimination. You just stated that Arabs can go to Israeli courts and win discrimination cases. Well and good but that does not mean much. No discrimination is comprehensive and absolute and we never said it was so. Maybe, as you state, the discrimination is less with concerns of law. I'll take your word for it. What about the rest though? Your argument is like when I ask you why you have given me a smaller portion of a meal that we purchased 50/50. To prove to me that you are fair and that my concerns are unfounded, you pass me a crumb. Thanks, but you are still eating the rest of my share!!!!!
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Nov 30, 2009
Also, why would an antisemitic help Palestinians? They are semitic :?
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Flying Dutchman wrote:The fact that Arabs can go to an Israeli court concerning discrimination and win, just shows Israel is not an apartheid state.
Even South African officials expressed their digust of hijacking the term apartheid for anti-semitic goals.


Did you read the first post of this thread? It is the (black) South Africans who are making the comparison - and as the title says, they should know.

I really can't see how the fact that an Israeli Judge has ruled that Arab Israelis are discriminated against in general and in the justice system helps your case. But then again, Israeli spin is a bit thin on logic and gets people to believe that the victims of injustice are to blame.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Like South Africa, the presence of well meaning Israelis does not change the fact that Israel is committing acts of discrimination etc. If it weren't for organisations like B'Tselem, more Israelis would have the excuse that 'they didn't know'. Unfortunately, as Levy points out below - many now know, but don't care.

Kudos to the many who do care and speak out against injustice:

They won't allow us not to know

By Gideon Levy

If not for B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, the State of Israel would look different today. The occupation might have been even crueler, or just as cruel, but we certainly would look different. In its 20 years of existence, this important human-rights organization may not have succeeded in changing reality, but at least it has made it possible for us to know what that reality was. Without B'Tselem, it might have been easier for us to say we did not know that this is what we were like, or that such shameful things were being done in our name.

In terms of results on the ground, B'Tselem has failed miserably: The parade of occupation and settlements still races ahead, the dogs of B'tselem are barking, but Israelis care less than ever before. When it comes to history, however, this will be an organization that left its mark. At the very least, it held up a mirror to a society that did not want to see its own reflection. That may not sound like much, but it's also not so little, in light of our current dismal state of affairs.

Yitzhak Rabin was once famously quoted as saying that, unlike Israel, the Palestinian Authority would quell Palestinian resistance "without the High Court of Justice, and without B'Tselem." Now we find ourselves practically bereft of both: The Supreme Court is battered, beaten and cowardly, and the organization is losing its relevance. But both are still here. Without them, not much would remain of Israel's democracy.
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It was B'Tselem that brought me to the occupied territories. A good boy from Tel Aviv, a graduate of Israel's school system and a consumer of its propagandist media, I began to travel to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in large part thanks to the organization's excellent field researchers. From working with the legendary Bassem Eid, who was my mouth, eyes and heart for many years, and with Musa Abu Hashhash and the other B'Tselem researchers today; and from that first naive journey with Dedi Zucker and Eid, way back at the end of the 1980s, to see a few uprooted olive trees, up to the most recent trip to document a horrific incident a few weeks ago, in which Israel Defense Forces soldiers badly abused Palestinian workers - B'Tselem has been a highly reliable and professional source of information for me.

The organization has changed much since its early days. It has become less political, abrasive and subversive, and now strives, albeit in vain, to be politically correct, aiming for the center of Israel's political map. It has become restrained, at times overly cautious. Too much time passed before it reported on the last two wars and, together with the occupation, it has begun to fade gradually from Israel's public agenda.

These are all reasons to be critical of B'Tselem, yet its overall contribution cannot be ignored. Do you want to know what is being done in your name a mere 30-minute drive from your home? Ask B'Tselem. Do you want to know how many people we've killed, who they were, and why? Go check its Web site.

Endless piles of scathing reports have gathered dust; countless complaints to the IDF, the Shin Bet security services, the police and the other mechanisms of occupation have gone unaddressed. And still we must salute this determined group, which may not cry out as loudly as it could, and may not be as radical as it should be, but does its work faithfully nonetheless. You will never catch B'Tselem in a lie, which may be why the security services have in recent months tried to malign the organization as never before.

A thoroughly patriotic organization, it has improved Israelis' image around the world. At least, people say, they have B'Tselem. They're not all Shaul Mofaz, Avigdor Lieberman or Moshe Ya'alon.

Who knows? Another day may come. A day when B'Tselem will win the Israel Prize for its work, an honor that it deserves. Perhaps someday the organization will even close its doors for lack of work.

In the meantime, let us light 20 candles on B'Tselem's birthday cake, and one for the coming year, which will probably be as cruel and violent in the territories as the one before it, and as cruel and violent as the 19 years that preceded that. B'Tselem will let us know.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130951.html
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
dee7o wrote:So can you offer an explanation why the South African government has spoken out in this way in spite of the vast Jewish population it harbors? Also, why the talk of inequality in Israeli press and by a Jewish judge?


I think he is just doesn't know what he is saying. There are also statements from the SA government saying eating potatos or taking a shower helps against HIV.
I am sure there are cases of discrimination against Arabs in Israel. I even think born an Arab is a disadvantage in Israel. That doesn't mean Israel is an apartheid state. Being Turkish is a disadvantage in Holland and some Turks are discriminated against. I never heard people calling Holland an apartheid state. Calling Israel an apartheid state is vile and used by people who want to polarize.
Apartheid in SA was ingrained in the law. In Israel Arabs have equeal rights, can vote, can practice their religion freely and can go to court etc.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:Like South Africa, the presence of well meaning Israelis does not change the fact that Israel is committing acts of discrimination etc. If it weren't for organisations like B'Tselem, more Israelis would have the excuse that 'they didn't know'. Unfortunately, as Levy points out below - many now know, but don't care.

Kudos to the many who do care and speak out against injustice:

They won't allow us not to know

Edited - to save space [shafique]


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130951.html


Another copy paste job, without any contribution to the discussion.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
The point I was making is that B'teselem is another organisation that highlights the discrimination in Israel that the South African government is likening to Apartheid.

I agree it is a matter of opinion whether the discrimination can be likened to Apartheid - and some do make a distinction between Arab Israelis (Muslim, Christian etc) and the Palestinians living in occupied territories -but the point was that the South Africans made the link with Apartheid, and I for one agree with the comparison.

I'm also reminded of the Israeli actions after capturing Jerusalem in 1967 - there was a thriving, long-standing Muslim community living in the area facing the Western Wall - these people were all evicted by the occupying forces and their houses bulldozed. It was a crime back then, still is a crime today to bulldoze people's houses - but hey, perhaps I'm being simplistic again! ;)

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:I'm also reminded of the Israeli actions after capturing Jerusalem in 1967 - there was a thriving, long-standing Muslim community living in the area facing the Western Wall - these people were all evicted by the occupying forces and their houses bulldozed. It was a crime back then, still is a crime today to bulldoze people's houses - but hey, perhaps I'm being simplistic again! ;)


If Israel would have the same attitude towards holy sites of other religions as Jordan, it would have bulldozed the Al-aqsa mosque and the temple mount. Under Jordanian rule, dozens of synagogues were destroyed. Jews were not allowed access to the western wall: talking about apartheid! All jews in east-jerusalem were killed or deported. But Israel does respect other religions.
Another prime example of apartheid is KSA. Drive towards Mekaa/Medina and notice the traffic sign were Muslims can drive straight, but infidels have to turn: that is legalized apartheid!
Israel even recognizes Arabic as an official language. All traffic signs are in Arabic. Only people who want to spread hatred will call this apartheid.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Don't you have an equivalent saying in Dutch to 'two wrongs don't make a right'?

What Jordanians may or may not have done, does not excuse the eviction and bulldozing of an established community in a city that you've just won control over in a war.

It's a war crime. Plain and simple.

Given that the South African government is comparing Israel's actions to Apartheid - are you saying they are spreading hatred? Strange view of the world you seem to have.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:Don't you have an equivalent saying in Dutch to 'two wrongs don't make a right'?


The attitude of Israels neighboring countries towards human rights is way worse than what you accuse Israel of.

shafique wrote:Given that the South African government is comparing Israel's actions to Apartheid - are you saying they are spreading hatred?


Yes I am. I am not sure why that is so strange. The SA government are no saints. I am also very critical about their attitude towards HIV/AIDS and their support for Mugabe. If they went through apartheid, they should know the situation in Israel isnot comparable to the apartheid regime in SA. Blacks didn't have voting power, no access no proper health care, no access to higher education. Apartheid and seggration was legalized in SA. Worn me when you see a sign in Israel in universities or hospitals saying "no Arabs allowed".
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Again with the 'two wrongs argument'?

I'll happily join you in condemning any injustices carried out by Arabs - there is no excuse for violating Human Rights and international laws.

The excuse that 'well my neighbour is a bigger criminal than me' doesn't wash with me unfortunately.

The South Africans didn't call Jordan's policies as being like Apartheid, and the example I gave of Israeli war crimes speaks for itself - clearing of settled populations and bulldozing homes and forbidding them to return. Clear violations of international law - criminal and immoral.

You do realise you are trying to justify criminal and immoral acts, don't you?

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:The excuse that 'well my neighbour is a bigger criminal than me' doesn't wash with me unfortunately.


You are right, but if you constantly focus on the neighbour that tries to live in peace and makes mistakes, instead of the neighbour that constantly wants to detroy the other neighbour you are a hypocrite.

shafique wrote:You do realise you are trying to justify criminal and immoral acts, don't you?


You have no clue about morality. Thinking wife beating is OK, rape is fine and agreeing with death penalty for gays etc. No, I don't think I am trying to justify criminal acts. The Israeli army saw that Arabs were using the Western Wall as a toilet. Now just imagine Muslims reaction if whole groups will take a sh!t in the kaaba. I agree with the destruction of those toilets, don't you?
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
What you think my views on wife beating etc are have no bearing on Israeli actions in Palestine, so I'm a little amused at your comments.

South Africa rightly points out that Israeli actions in Jerusalem are like Apartheid era white tactics, and suddenly everyone is wrong and out come the justifications that 'well the Arabs are worse'!

As I said, I'll happily join any condemnation of Arab injustices -but I really can't see how that has any bearing on Israel's actions against the Palestinians.

Are you just annoyed that I've pointed out you are trying to justify a war crime - the eviction of a whole neighbourhood and the bulldozing of their homes?

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:What you think my views on wife beating etc are have no bearing on Israeli actions in Palestine, so I'm a little amused at your comments.


No, it is just clarifying your ideas of morals. Like pedophilia should be seen as an example.

shafique wrote:Are you just annoyed that I've pointed out you are trying to justify a war crime - the eviction of a whole neighbourhood and the bulldozing of their homes?


So I see you have no problems people taking a sh!t in a holy site of one of the main religions.
what I have a problem with is the vile and hypocritical nature of the critisicm against Israel. That is just done out of hatred and serves no purpose other than to spread hate. The comparison between SA's apartheid and Israel is completely wrong and even libelous.
Israel also evicts jews living illegal in houses, so I cannot see any reason why that is the same as SA.

And I'll be happy to condemn the destrcution of legally built houses.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Do you have to use vulgar language when defending the eviction of Muslims from their homes and the bulldozing of the site?

It would be suffice to say that you support Israel's actions and don't agree with South Africa when it says Israel is acting like the white Apartheid era rulers.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
shafique wrote:Do you have to use vulgar language when defending the eviction of Muslims from their homes and the bulldozing of the site?


What vulgar language did I use? Is it that according to you using the Western Wall as a toilet is fine?
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Israel committed a war crime when it evicted families living in the Maghreb quarter of Jerusalem in the area facing the Western Wall and destroyed over 100 houses and then forbade them from returning.

These people lived there - they ate, slept and (yes) went to toilet there.

Access to the Western Wall was not impeded, the houses did not back onto the wall and Jews had access to the wall for worship.

What the occupying forces did was to evict the inhabitants and then clear their homes. This is illegal (and immoral) - and as it was done as a result of war, it was a war crime in my books.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
If you want to use immoral acts in the past for justifying the comparison of Israel with apartheid, every single country in the ME is an apartheid state. Arabs in Israel have equal rights by law, coloured people in SA didn't.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 01, 2009
Arabs in Israel have equal rights by law

So as a palestinian arab, one morning you wake up to know that your land and home now registered in the name of the state ready to be demolished, and by the time you discovered this fact, it is too late to appeal. Then the burden will always rest with you claiming owneership of the land. Even if you meet this burden, the land and home can stil be registered in the name of the state on the grounds that it was transferred to the settlement “in good faith”.
I don’t know what you would call this...to me as it is the worst senario of human treatment other than killing directly…
If being driven out of your land permenantly, loosing your security, your job, your livelihood means being equal and having equal rights by law … than I don’t wanna know it….and this sort of equal rights description can be something particular to Israel or israel like states ..
As the israelis themselves put it very well in the conclusion of this article.
Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa…..
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200205_Land_Grab.asp
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 02, 2009
So, FD's argument is that Israel's neighbours also discriminate, so the South Africans are wrong to say Israeli actions are like Apartheid.

Surely he's just arguing that South Africa should have also named the other countries and condemned them for their Apartheid-like actions. Strange line of argument - I'm a criminal, but so are my neighbours so please don't just criticise me!!

(Oh, and I like the speed at which FD has forgotten the quotes from an Israeli judge that say that Arabs are indeed discriminated against within the Justice system despite being 'equal under the law' - shows that hypocrisy can be added to the list of crimes of Israel!)

I also note that the Israeli war crime of evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Maghreb quarter (where houses had been for centuries) - is not being defended any more.

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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 02, 2009
shafique wrote:So, FD's argument is that Israel's neighbours also discriminate, so the South Africans are wrong to say Israeli actions are like Apartheid.


No, that is not my argument. Israel is not an apartheid state. If South Africans want to see apartheid they should check out KSA, Jordan or Lebanon

shafique wrote:Surely he's just arguing that South Africa should have also named the other countries and condemned them for their Apartheid-like actions. Strange line of argument - I'm a criminal, but so are my neighbours so please don't just criticise me!!


Yes, it becomes hypocitical, when you constantly singeling out one nation, which is certainly not perfect, and turn a blind eye to worse cases.

shafique wrote:(Oh, and I like the speed at which FD has forgotten the quotes from an Israeli judge that say that Arabs are indeed discriminated against within the Justice system despite being 'equal under the law' - shows that hypocrisy can be added to the list of crimes of Israel!)


I have not forgotten them at all. Actually I have used it to show Arabs have equal right.

shafique wrote:I also note that the Israeli war crime of evicting and bulldozing the houses of the Maghreb quarter (where houses had been for centuries) - is not being defended any more.


I note, it still fine with you to use the most holiest site of a religion as a toilet. No surprises, as it was also no problem for you that Muslims took a leak in a jewish holy site in Hebron.
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Re: Apartheid Comparison - From those who know Dec 02, 2009
Fascinating reply.

Just to clarify - you are not denying the crimes that South Africa is condemning, but saying that Israel's Arab neighbours are worse.

I can't see the link between Israel's war crime of evicting people from their homes and the issue about toilets in the most holy places? The Western Wall and access to it was actually instigated by an Ottoman Sultan - before then it wasn't actually a place of pilgrimage and worship (it is, after all, just the outer wall of the temple that was destroyed by the Romans). The houses destroyed and people evicted were in a quarter that had been there for centuries - there was still access to the Wall itself.

Are you saying that it is ok to break international laws if one says it is because of one's religion?

(Oh, and I'm impressed with the logical gymnastics that equates a Judge saying Arabs are discriminated against in the Judicial system with 'Arabs are equal under the law' - kudos!)

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