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Fair enough - I guess there must be other Tafsirs that have to explain away this admonition of God against Muhammad, pbuh, so that they can reconcile their view that he is infallible. I can't see any reason to doubt the Hadith and Tafsirs that say this is referring to the Prophet, pbuh.

This Tafsir was just the first one I googled and states that the chapter relates to the incident also reported in Hadith concerning a blind man who interrupted the Prophet, pbuh, when he was preaching to a Quraysh man.

Those scholars who state this chapter is about Muhammad, pbuh, therefore concede that God says in the Quran that he isn't infallible. Do we agree on this point? (I guess you are now realising that there isn't a consensus on this issue after all - as you've admitted that 'some' scholars do say this is about God admonishing the Prophet for a mistake)

Do we also agree that God clearly states that Noah made a mistake - and hence those who believe he was infallible do so despite what the Quran says?

Hey, whilst we are straying from the original post - I do enjoy backing up my statement that Islamic theology is logical and rational, and that I would not believe (or ask others to believe) anything that was illogical.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:That's a great quote from the article - and accords with my view that no one should believe in anything that is illogical or unjust.

For me the point is that no man can treat two wives absolutely equally - and there is therefore an element of injustice in polygamy - but it is a lesser evil when there is an imbalance between males and females (eg what happened in Europe after WWII and WW1). Sometimes Muslims fall into the trap of thinking that the Prophet, pbuh, was absolutely perfect when he was actually just a human and did make mistakes in matters which were not related to religion. The Quran points out that Noah misinterpreted a prophecy from God, but yet some Muslims do believe Prophets are infallible- they are not.

What is potent about the article though (and I encourage you to read it in full, rather than our quotes) is that the women do find Islam liberating both socially and s.e.xually!

Cheers,
Shafique

sinless and infallible are not the same thing. To sin is to first harbor an intention to do evil. I think you would agree that anyone supposedly sent by God to be a role model whether it be Noah or Christ or whoever, should not be morally corrupt. However they do make mistakes of judgement because they are human.

melika969 wrote:you are making justifications to prove your religion is from God, I m ok with it, i faced with lots of people like this, have fun with your religion. just please do not use the phrase WOMEN, it is a group of women and not all of them.

"WOMEN" is a word. Not a phrase

[quote="dee7]sinless and infallible are not the same thing. To sin is to first harbor an intention to do evil. I think you would agree that anyone supposedly sent by God to be a role model whether it be Noah or Christ or whoever, should not be morally corrupt. However they do make mistakes of judgement because they are human.[/quote]

Agree 100% - I did make the point in later posts that Muslims believe Muhammad, pbuh, was sinless - but not all believe he was infallible - your description is spot on.

Cheers,
Shafique

dee7o wrote:

melika969 wrote:

I haven't found a scholar who can explain it, but I believe in a just God and the wisdom of the Prophet, so I take it on trust. That's faith. To have real knowledge of Islam is to study it for a long time; eventually, I might find an interpretation that satisfies me

Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity"

" ........and I'm not sure about the former"

The most overused quote in human history and you still can't state it in completion. Says a lot about someone claiming the stupidity of others.

yeah the fact that I didnt state it doesnt mean that I CANT state it.

you are a muslim too? your above comment says alot about you!
how you are losing logic and start mocking!

dee7o wrote:

melika969 wrote:you are making justifications to prove your religion is from God, I m ok with it, i faced with lots of people like this, have fun with your religion. just please do not use the phrase WOMEN, it is a group of women and not all of them.

"WOMEN" is a word. Not a phrase

Yeah thank you for your correction! apprantly all you can get from the thread is checking! very well, keep on! hey do I have spelling errors too? please correct it for me, thank you.

shafique wrote:
Those scholars who state this chapter is about Muhammad, pbuh, therefore concede that God says in the Quran that he isn't infallible. Do we agree on this point? (I guess you are now realising that there isn't a consensus on this issue after all - as you've admitted that 'some' scholars do say this is about God admonishing the Prophet for a mistake)

Yes we agree on this! I agreed with you before, that some of the scholars do not know Muhammad as infallible but I asked you to state refrence from Quran which directly says Muhammad can make mistake.

shafique wrote:
Do we also agree that God clearly states that Noah made a mistake - and hence those who believe he was infallible do so despite what the Quran says?

yes Noah, Ibrahim, Mousa and Isaa are all have made mistake according to Quran.As I said before:

In Islamic consensus more than Noah, Ibrahim, Mousa and Isaa(Jesus) are infallible too. but as you said for all of them there are stories in Quran which showing that they are not infallible. So this is still a debate, if they are infallible or not.

But about Mohammad, the Quran strictly says he would never say anything for his own desire, all things he says is from God, no separation between his private life and prophet life!

shafique wrote:
Hey, whilst we are straying from the original post - I do enjoy backing up my statement that Islamic theology is logical and rational, and that I would not believe (or ask others to believe) anything that was illogical.

Yeah do enjoy! but still you didnt refer a qoute from Quran which says Muhammad can make mistakes!

I credit you on your persistence.

Ok -let's spell this out for you.

1. Treaty of Hudaibiyya - the Prophet relates to his companions a vision in which they will be performing Haj in that year. They wear their robes and are stopped at Hudaibiyya and negotiate a truce. In that treaty the pilgrimage is not allowed that year, but only the following year. Umar objects to this - and wants to enter Mecca that year.

The following Chapter (48, victory) is revealed after the event:

Surah 48. Victory, Conquest
1. Verily We have granted thee a manifest Victory:
2. That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;

...
25. They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, ((Allah) would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
...
27. Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
28. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.


So - the vision was not fulfilled literally that year - the Muslims did not do pilgrimage until the next year.


Now, the second example from the Quran is Ch 80, which relates to Muhammad,pbuh, unless one takes the interpretation in Shia tafsir as correct and discounts all the historical accounts which state who the blind man was. Shia don't believe it to be a reference to Muhammad, pbuh, but as Melika rightly points out, other scholars do.


So, do we now agree that God says Noah made mistakes and that God also points out the mistaken belief that the pilgrimage would take place physically in the year of the Treaty of Hudaibiyya?

At least we should agree that the Quran clearly states that Noah is not infallible and that the Shia belief that he is in infallible is despite this Quranic account?

I'm still enjoying the fact that my points are completely logical.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thank you for the credit.

First, As I mentioned before, The belief that the prophet is infallible is not just for shia, Sunni believe in that too. the difference in Sunni believe that the prophet is infallible from the time he became a prophet, but Shia believe that he was infallible in his whole life. So do not try to underestimate this belief by saying just Shia beleive in this.

Secondly, I have quoted other "tafsir"s from the sura 80,and for sure it's not a tafsir just from Shia point of view. but for Sura 48, you should know you are vey wrong about your interpretion of

2. That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;

If you consider the whole Sura, it stated that the God made muhammad victorious in the war, so his enemies will see that he has been forgiven for the faults (which his enemies entitled him too, it doesn't say that Muhammad has done mistakes, It says the enemies accused him of making mistakes, and god proved them wrong.)

You are overlooking the fact that this chapter was revealed after the treaty of Hudaibiyya and refers to the vision that prophet had in v27.

But as we've now established, some Muslim scholars do indeed consider the Prophet, pbuh, as fallible but sin-less.

They use the historical accounts of Ch 80, and the verses above about Hudaibiyya to support this view.

Cheers,
Shafique

No Shaf, I didnt overlook the fact that you mentioned. This is just different interpretion of this Sura. Yeah I agree with you that some scholars do not take Muhammad infallible.

Thanks Melika - I always enjoy when my views are challenged and I have to re-sharpen the arguments/justifications for a particular belief.

As a result of our discussion, I'm now aware of the tafsir Majma-ul-Bayan and know that it differs from the mainstream Sunni Tafsir's in interpreting ch 80!

If we go back to where this discussion started from, you'll see that I argued that the belief of infallibility of the Prophet, pbuh, is what necessarily causes some of the issues the ladies in the article talked about, and that these fall away if one sides with the scholars who argue that Muhammad, pbuh, was sinless but not infallible.

That said, despite these peripheral issues- they argue that Islam's teachings are liberating for them.

Cheers,
Shafique

I still believe that you elaborate the real meaning of Quran to justify the religion. but as some people need religion to continue living I m not trying more to convince you it is full of contradictions.

Hey, I agree with people when they point out contradictions in the Quran that are based on faulty interpretations (see eh's thread on Contradiction in the Quran).

At the end of the day, I'm just saying that for me the Quran is logical, rational and without contradictions. Other readers may have different views - and as we've seen this includes Muslim scholars.

For me, I take the stance that no one should believe in an illogical theological point - as my concept of God is one of pure logic and rationality (He wouldn't do something that offends logic).

Perhaps I am too simplistic - for example, when God says Noah committed a mistake, I don't try and rationalise a belief that Noah was infallible - I simply reject this as a belief that is not based on what the Quran says. That makes sense to me, but it may not make sense to others.

Cheers,
Shafique

So why did you choose Islam? you can choose all other religions and just take the parts you find logical. Or you can develop your new logical religion!

Excellent question Melika.

For me, I choose to follow Islam because it is the most logical path I've discovered so far. I've read up and discussed what other religions teach (and learn from the original sources and adherents of those religions where possible) and then compare it with the religion I'm currently following.

My logic works as such:

1. is there a God?
2. If the answer to 1 is no - then one can indeed choose to live how one wishes and adhere to humanistic teachings only.
3. If the the answer to 1 is a 'yes' then logically God will communicate His presence to mankind.
4. We need to be able to recognise God's communication with mankind and even establish direct communication with Him (so reject any religion that says God doesn't speak any more)
5. Look at all the claimants of revelation from God and look at the claims logically - reject if they fail some basic tests (eg. the tests of Prophethood found in the Bible in Deut 18.20 are a logical set of tests for assessing whether a claimant of prophethood is true).
6. See what the religion offers - spiritually and socially
7. test against logic
8. Reject any answer that says 'but you should have faith and not seek to understand'
9. Once satisfied that a set of commandments is from God and is logical, don't pick and choose - follow.

Thus far, Islam satisfies all the above criteria - provided one believes there is a God. (There is another set of logical arguments for deciding whether there is a Creator - but I've glossed over that, one has to decide whether you stay at 2 or jump to 3 and then on to 9 ).



Cheers,
Shafique

dee7o wrote:

melika969 wrote:

Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity"

" ........and I'm not sure about the former"

The most overused quote in human history and you still can't state it in completion. Says a lot about someone claiming the stupidity of others.

yeah the fact that I didnt state it doesnt mean that I CANT state it.

you are a muslim too? your above comment says alot about you!
how you are losing logic and start mocking!

Looooooool Losing "logic"?
You entire post was: "Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity"

Logic?!?!?! What "logic" did I miss? Did you attempt some kind of an intelligent comment riddled with mystery that I was unable to follow? Please enlighten me on the part of your post that I have misconstrued. As for the whole "you are Muslim too? your above comment says alot about you!"; borrow a brain. I might be Wicca for all I care and that comment would still carry no meaning. Or are you implying that being a Muslim I must have a set personality which you can so ingeniously recognize from a one line post. Nice "logic". Are you aware of the definitions of racism/prejudice/stereotyping? Or are those terms not part of your "logic"

And you accuse me of mocking you? What exactly was the intention of your use of a quote in a place other than where it was intended if not mockery? Did I misunderstand you, because if I did, then my apologies. Maybe you think that replying in a thread about religion with a misplaced quote about stupidity is "logic" and not "mocking". If so, I'd be glad to hear your "logic" about how that makes any sense.

melika969 wrote:

dee7o wrote:

melika969 wrote:you are making justifications to prove your religion is from God, I m ok with it, i faced with lots of people like this, have fun with your religion. just please do not use the phrase WOMEN, it is a group of women and not all of them.

"WOMEN" is a word. Not a phrase

Yeah thank you for your correction! apprantly all you can get from the thread is checking! very well, keep on! hey do I have spelling errors too? please correct it for me, thank you.

You had that coming. Given the fact that you were so liberally quoting something on the universal stupidity of mankind when discussing someone's religion, you cannot blame me for assuming you are the perfect specimen of human intellect.

Dear Einstien, Actually my answer which mentioned stupidity was not about their religion,it was about how they can approve sth that they cant find a logical reason for it, just becasue it is faith! for me this is stupid, maybe for you it s not, you can keep on your checking, it may be your faith!

yeah I have been very punished by your correcting my "phrase" to "word", you had that comin


Shaf, I m gonna answer you tomorrow,cause that debate needs more thinking and I am really sleepy right now! but for replying Einstein i didnt need much brain!

melika969 wrote: but for replying Einstein i didnt need much brain!

which is why she was so equipped to do it.

For me, I choose to follow Islam because it is the most logical path I've discovered so far. I've read up and discussed what other religions teach (and learn from the original sources and adherents of those religions where possible) and then compare it with the religion I'm currently following.

Oh gawd. Do you get your (old?) elementary school teacher to write your posts?

eh - I'm glad you took a break from pasting articles (which you haven't actually read through) to inject some humour into this thread.

I presume you read more than a few paragraphs of the posts here, this time.

Melika - rest up! May I suggest we start a new thread in the religion forum - this one is way off topic now and was about some Muslim women explaining why Islam liberates them.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, I have no problem with starting a new thread, but as event horizon mentioned you should come down of your teacher student position!

For the number 1 to 3 I m gonna take them for granted in this debate cause they are common in most acceptable religions nowadays,

For number 4, you stated that “we need to be able to recoginse God’s communication with mankind” and in the end you mentioned “so reject any religion that says God doesn't speak any more”

In Islam the prophet strictly stated that he is “Khatam-ul-nabiyin”, the last of the prophets, this has been said by God in Quran too “:

Sura 33: Al-Ahzab: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. (40)

So, why he is the last prophet and no prophet should come after him?
When even your logic states that God should not stop speaking!

(We will got to further numbers later)

I'll start a new thread in religion entitled 'Why Islam' and copy over the original question and your questions above.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:eh - I'm glad you took a break from pasting articles (which you haven't actually read through) to inject some humour into this thread.

I presume you read more than a few paragraphs of the posts here, this time.

Melika - rest up! May I suggest we start a new thread in the religion forum - this one is way off topic now and was about some Muslim women explaining why Islam liberates them.

Cheers,
Shafique

Perhaps the discussion should go back on track as to why thats happening in london and not arab countries.

Try suggesting female Immans and people start going crazy!
(and Sahfique ill pre-empt your christian example which you will give, as islam IS promoting equality but christianity doesn't).

Arab countries tend to be misogynistic.

Historically, Islam had to specify that women had rights and that it was not ok to bury female children alive - the fact it had to specify this speaks for itself.

That said, Arab women are quite outspoken and can (and do) write about what Islam means to them. Muslim women are well represented in the Islamic world at large, from Iran to Malaysia, Indonesia etc.

One theory about the suppression of women in Arabia currently, is precisely because the authorities want to control the Arab women who don't suffer fools lightly and would make more of a fuss about the injustices going on.

The women in the original article are giving their views about Islam - not Muslim regimes kept in power by threat of force.

Cheers,
Shafique

Try suggesting female Immans and people start going crazy!

RT, women can be imams if the congregation is female, if there are two or more women pray together, one of them will have to be the imam, the same as if two or more men (or men and women) pray together one of the men among them will have to be the imam.
Imams in Islam are often equated to priests in Christianity and rabbis in Judaism. However, there is in fact no role like a priest in Islam. Each worshipper prays directly to Allah. Each member of the congregation, including the Imam, faces mecca and does the exact same prayer. The role of the imam during prayer is merely to keep the congregation in sync. That's it. Anyone who is Muslim and knows how to do salat can be the imam.

but yet some Muslims do believe Prophets are infallible- they are not....
the Quran strictly says he would never say anything for his own desire, all things he says is from God, no separation between his private life and prophet life!....

infallible,fallible, sinfull,sinless, mistakes, errors.. whatever...why don't we check what "Infallibility of Prophets" means first?.....
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... FDIELayout

However they do make mistakes of judgement because they are human...
No you didnt. Please make the refrence where Quran says Muhammmad can make mistakes?

Here is another example of human error in judgement by the prophet mohammed..
Even though it is a minor error, he gets immediate admonition and correction of God against himself....(which also is the proof for authenticity of quran from God)

(66:1) O Prophet, why do you forbid what Allah has made lawful for you?1 Is it to please your wives?2 Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Compassionate.3

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=66