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Muslim women and scholars think it does - spiritually and sexually. By Madeleine Bunting

We're sitting in a stylish club, ArRum, in Clerkenwell, central London. Firelight is flickering on the leather sofas, there is contemporary art on the walls and delicious "fusion" food on the table, but what distinguishes this club from its many neighbours is that it is Muslim, there is no alcohol on the menu and downstairs there's a prayer room. The stylish place conveys a complex ethos - modern, yet true to its Muslim identity.

A suitable setting, then, chosen by the six Muslim women who agreed to meet me to discuss Islam and the position of women. All university graduates, all in their mid-twenties in careers ranging from journalism to teaching, all have chosen in the past few years to wear the hijab (a scarf wrapped tightly around their heads to conceal every wisp of hair). Most strikingly, however, all of these women fluently and cogently articulate how they believe Islam has liberated and empowered them. The Islam they describe is a million miles away from that of the Taliban, let alone the Islam practised in many Muslim countries from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia, but they insist - and back up their points with Koranic references - that the Islam they first discovered when they were teenagers is true to the Prophet's teachings. They don't need western feminism, which, they argue, developed as a reaction against the particular expression of western patriarchy.
To continue;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/200 ... reducation

Interesting article - I like the quote:

It is true that there is plenty of material in the Koran that is more egalitarian than the western Christian tradition, which was heavily influenced by the misogyny of Greek thought. Perhaps the most fundamental is that the Islamic God does not have a gender. Arabic may refer to him by use of the male pronoun, but he is never described as "father" or "lord" as he is in the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

And also

All the women I interviewed roll off a long list of hadiths and Koranic verses to support women's rights: the right to education; the right to work and their right to keep the money they earn, while men must use their earnings to look after their womenfolk; property rights; in one school of Islamic thought, women don't have to clean or cook for their husbands unless they are paid for it (wages for housework long before the 20th century thought it had invented it); the fact that the Prophet, according to Aisha, was something of a new man, and used to clean and sew when he wasn't praying; and then there is the praise lavished on the emotional qualities engendered by motherhood of nurturing and patience, with the Prophet's repeated injunctions to honour your mother.

It also covers the criticism of polygamy and the age of Aisha when she married - so a lot of material in the article. For instance it highlights the areas of Islam that are difficult for some:

As one woman put it, "When I read about the Prophet's life, I feel it is unjust: he favoured one wife over another, and that makes me uneasy. I haven't found a scholar who can explain it, but I believe in a just God and the wisdom of the Prophet, so I take it on trust. That's faith. To have real knowledge of Islam is to study it for a long time; eventually, I might find an interpretation that satisfies me."

These are the sort of explanations that simply fail to convince a sceptical western mind. Perhaps one of the hardest things for a woman to accept in the Koranic tradition is polygamy and, indeed, many of the women I spoke to conceded some unease here. Although some were prepared to consider a polygamous marriage, they all confessed that it would be very difficult; one married woman had even included a prohibition on a second wife in her pre-nuptial contract (a Koranic invention that is mutually negotiated and can cover everything from housework to the frequency of sex). They had various explanations for why the Koran allows men to take four wives, such as the need to provide for war widows in a nomadic warrior culture. With the advent of the welfare state, such arguments are hard to sustain, as several of the women admitted.

Cheers,
Shafique

I haven't found a scholar who can explain it, but I believe in a just God and the wisdom of the Prophet, so I take it on trust. That's faith. To have real knowledge of Islam is to study it for a long time; eventually, I might find an interpretation that satisfies me

Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity"

That's a great quote from the article - and accords with my view that no one should believe in anything that is illogical or unjust.

For me the point is that no man can treat two wives absolutely equally - and there is therefore an element of injustice in polygamy - but it is a lesser evil when there is an imbalance between males and females (eg what happened in Europe after WWII and WW1). Sometimes Muslims fall into the trap of thinking that the Prophet, pbuh, was absolutely perfect when he was actually just a human and did make mistakes in matters which were not related to religion. The Quran points out that Noah misinterpreted a prophecy from God, but yet some Muslims do believe Prophets are infallible- they are not.

What is potent about the article though (and I encourage you to read it in full, rather than our quotes) is that the women do find Islam liberating both socially and s.e.xually!

Cheers,
Shafique

hehe

No shaf, you should believe in anything that the prophet provided to you, because "That is faith and eventually you may find out something to JUSTIFY it"

I dont know if you are shi'a or Sunni, but in both, muslims believe that the Prophet was "Masoum". it means "innocent" and it means he never did sth which is wrong or mistake...

You can't just take the religion in your mind and grasp the parts that you like or that you find logical! It s a whole package!

shafique wrote: Sometimes Muslims fall into the trap of thinking that the Prophet, pbuh, was absolutely perfect when he was actually just a human and did make mistakes in matters which were not related to religion. The Quran points out that Noah misinterpreted a prophecy from God, but yet some Muslims do believe Prophets are infallible- they are not.

the thing you are saying above is implying that you dont approve Quran.
Chapter 51: (an najm) Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. (3) It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired

So it says all the things that the prophet says and do is from God, this is the verse they are quoting to prove that the prophet is totally innocent with no mistakes. the different between Sunni and Shi'a is, Shi'a believe that the prophet was innocent from the first day he was born, Sunnis believe that The innocency begins with the time of being a prophet.

If you read what I wrote, I made a distinction between the revelations vouchsafed to Muhammad, pbuh, by God which are indeed faultless, and the other actions/thoughts etc of Muhammad, pbuh, the man.

There is an incident in the Quran where God admonishes Muhammad, pbuh, for showing impatience on his face when a blind man disturbed him. There is another Hadith where Muhammad, pbuh, made a mistake over the planting of some trees and which makes the point that he isn't infallible in all things (the farmers should have known better). Similarly the Prophet, pbuh, had a vision that they would do the pilgrimage the year that the treaty of Hudaibiyya was signed - but in reality they were not allowed to make pilgrimage that year - so he misinterpreted that vision.

Yes, I agree that Shia believe their Imams and Prophets as infallible - this is analagous to Catholics believing the Pope is infallible. These are innovations and not based on Quranic or Biblical teachings.

Cheers,
Shafique

and there is therefore an element of injustice in polygamy - but it is a lesser evil when there is an imbalance between males and females (eg what happened in Europe after WWII and WW1).

Where does the Koran say that polygamy can only be practiced when there is a shortage of men?

Yes, I agree that Shia believe their Imams and Prophets as infallible - this is analagous to Catholics believing the Pope is infallible. These are innovations and not based on Quranic or Biblical teachings.

Yes Shafique. Shia believe that prophet and Imams are infallible from the day they born, Sunni believe that the prophet was infallible since he got the msg of being a prophet. It is not an innovation. I quoted a verse for you form Quran, which says the prophet just says from God not for his own desire. In Quran's verse there is no separation for things Muhammad has done as a man and things he has done as a prophet. So you as a muslim are going to ignore what Quran says? And this is not sth I interpreted from Quran, this is a interpret ion that almost all muslim authors made, who know the Arabic perfectly, which is necessary to comprehend Quran! You can not just interpret it in the way you like!

The belief that the Prophet, pbuh, was infallible after he became a prophet (at the age of 40) is not supported by either the Quran or history.

Just the example of the treaty of Hudaibiyya shows this to be the case - all historians agree that Umar protested that the Meccans were not allowing the Muslims to peform Haj that year and that this was violating the vision that the Prophet, pbuh, had - and showed that the Prophet, pbuh, was wrong when he told the pilgrims that they would do the pilgrimage that year - in the end God accepted their pilgrimage without them entering Mecca.

However, this is another issue of hot debate between Muslims - I take the simplistic and logical route, others have different views and different logic.

What is moving is the way these women are articulating their views of Islam and showing that Islam does liberate women in their opinion.

Cheers,
Shafique

The belief that the Prophet, pbuh, was infallible after he became a prophet (at the age of 40) is not supported by either the Quran or history.

Shaf you are not allowed to promote ur own conclusions to Quran and history! I quoted a verse from Quran which clearly says the prophet can not tell anything but God's desire. There is another quote form Quran ( I dont remember which but I will find it soon) that says the prophet should be the symbol for all muslims in all the aspects of their lives. so a person who make mistakes should not be a symbol! baziiiingooo!

You know till now I thought I am debating with a person with deep knowledge of Islam, but apparently I was wrong. The prophet has made mistakes and that s why I dont approve him as a prophet! but again, you can not elaborate religion with your own desire, there is a holy book for you, which you believe is words of God, you have to believe in it, and at least you have to understand what is in it so you can believe it. in the Islam (no difference between shia and sunni) people who can comoprehend Quran and hadith, conclude that not only Muhammad but other 4 prophets (Noah, Ibrahim, Mousa,Isaa) were infallible. so you who are even can not read Quran, can not have your own conclusion that because of some stories that you heard Mohammad was allowed to make mistakes!

I understand you have strong views about Islam, but let us keep in mind that the original article above was about the views Muslim women had about the religion and whether it liberates them or not.

My statement above was just a statement of fact - that the Quran and Hadith records the fact that the Prophet, pbuh, committed mistakes outside the realm of religious teaching. Therefore the belief that he was infallible in everything is not supported by Quran or Hadith - I agreed with you that it is never-the-less a belief of Shia and many Sunnis that he was infallible.

God is quite clear in the Quran that in matters of revelation of the Quran that the Prophet, pbuh, was not giving his own views but narrating what was revealed to him. That is what is commonly misinterpreted as a statement of infallibility.

These types of debates have raged for a millenia and, as I stated before, is equivalent to the Catholic debates over the infallibility of the Pope.

Cheers,
Shafique

I forgot to address your point that you believe Islamic consensus is that Noah is an infallible prophet (along with others).

You say that I must not have read the Quran if I conclude that Noah was fallible.

My argument would be that God is clear in the Quran that Noah is fallible:

011.045
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!"
011.046
He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!"
011.047
YUSUFALI: Noah said: "O my Lord! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for that of which I have no knowledge. And unless thou forgive me

Until God corrected him, Noah believed that the prophecy that his family would be saved included his son. He was wrong (i.e. fallible) and sought forgiveness once God explained his interpretation was wrong.


Now, perhaps you can understand why I do subject my beliefs to the test of logic and why I agree with the womens' conclusions about whether Islam liberates women or not.

Cheers,
Shafique

In Islamic consensus more than Noah, Ibrahim, Mousa and Isaa(Jesus) are infallible too. but as you said for all of them there are stories in Quran which showing that they are not infallible. So this is still a debate, if they are infallible or not.

But about Mohammad, the Quran strictly says he would never say anything for his own desire, all things he says is from God, no separation between his private life and prophet life!

I agree that the idea that Muhammad, pbuh, is infallible is indeed a common belief among Muslims. This is despite the Quranic and Hadith accounts of mistakes (not sins) committed by the Prophet, pbuh. Eg the misinterpretation that the pilgrimage of Hudaibiyya would be done literally - God corrects this view in the Quran. Either God contradicts Himself or the verse you refer to relates to the Quranic revelations.

What is beyond debate amongst Muslims though is that the Quran is literally God's words and therefore Islamic injunctions have to be in line with what God says in the Quran. This is what the women are referring to when they argue that Islam does liberate women.

Cheers,
Shafique

you are making justifications to prove your religion is from God, I m ok with it, i faced with lots of people like this, have fun with your religion. just please do not use the phrase WOMEN, it is a group of women and not all of them.

You stated that Muslims believe that Noah (and other prophets) are infallible - I just clarified my earlier statement of fact that the Quran does not support this belief.

I totally agree that some Muslims believe this to be the case, despite my statement of fact.

I can't see how this clarification amounts to an irrational justification of my religion - to me it is totally rational.

It is as rational as the views of the women in the first article. I wasn't aware that I'd stated that all women share these views about Islam, apologies if I gave that impression - I was only referencing what these women are saying and that I agree with their arguments that Islam liberates women who choose to follow Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

Do you believe in Quran as a whole? or you believe in the parts that you find rational?

Please one paragraph answer! This is a yes/No question!I hate losing logic in rambling!

Kind of ironic that this comes from England, who muslims moan about yet has enabled them to lead an intellectual and sprirtual life which they would not be allowed in 'muslim' countries.

Shafique, your kind of beating a dead horse when you have to keep slipping in a christian bash.

Religion has been misused and will continue to be misused by some men in powerful positions to keep women in check. This is evidenced by that female Dr who wanted to contribute more to Al - Queda being an highly intelligent lady, but was effectively told to go home and breed martys!

And yes people misused the bible in the past but that doesn't give islam the excuse to make the same mistakes again (islam came after christianity - lessons learnt etc)

melika969 wrote:Do you believe in Quran as a whole? or you believe in the parts that you find rational?

The whole Quran is logical and rational and I believe in it all.

God says in the Quran that Noah made a mistake and isn't infallible. Hence my statement of fact that the Quran does not support the common misconception that Islam states that all prophets are infallible. The verse about Muhammad, pbuh, can only logically refer to the revelation of the Quran, not his private life.

(Sorry, I had to use two paragraphs - and 4 sentences - I hope that was short enough for you )

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester wrote:Kind of ironic that this comes from England, who muslims moan about yet has enabled them to lead an intellectual and sprirtual life which they would not be allowed in 'muslim' countries.

The journalist interviewed Muslim women living in Britain - I think their views are interesting. I agree that the irony is that they have greater freedom of worship in Britain than in Saudi, for example.

Roadtester wrote:Shafique, your kind of beating a dead horse when you have to keep slipping in a christian bash.

I wasn't actually bashing Christianity when I gave the analogy of Papal infallibility in Catholicism - it is just another example of a belief slipping into a religion that isn't actually based on scripture, and it is a topic that similarly debated within Christianity as it is in Islam. Melika was under the impression that the infallibility of Muhammad, pbuh, is an absolute belief in Islam - hence my analogy.

However, I do point out that the Bible does contain more misogynistic verses (but not in this thread, IIRC) than the Quran and make the very point you make - that scripture can be misused and that neither Jesus nor Muhammad, pbuh, taught that is ok to abuse women.


Cheers,
Shfaique

The verse about Muhammad, pbuh, can only logically refer to the revelation of the Quran, not his private life.

how can you interpret this?

Please write down the quote and let me know how did you get that it is just for Quran and not for his private life.

melika969 wrote:

The verse about Muhammad, pbuh, can only logically refer to the revelation of the Quran, not his private life.

how can you interpret this?

Please write down the quote and let me know how did you get that it is just for Quran and not for his private life.

Sure.

The verse is from Ch 53 - Al Najm. Here it is in context:
1. By the Star when it goes down,-
2. Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
4. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
5. He was taught by one Mighty in Power,
6. Endued with Wisdom: for he appeared (in stately form);
7. While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
8. Then he approached and came closer,
9. And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
10. So did ((Allah)) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.


v4 talks about inspiration from God (sent down to the Prophet) - this refers to the revelations vouchsafed by God to the Prophet, pbuh, v5-10 speak about the direct knowledge given to the Prophet, pbuh, when he was on the spiritual journey.

So, when the Prophet, pbuh, speaks about either revelation of the Quran or what he saw on the spiritual journey, this is not from his own desire, neither is he being misled or being led astray.

I can see how this can be extrapolated into a belief that he was infallible in all things - but the Quran elsewhere corrects this interpretation (eg Hudaibiyya and the incident about frowning at the blind man).

I can't see where God says that Muhammad, pbuh, is infallible in all things when all the verses are taken into consideration and the above v3 is read with the subsequent verses.

Cheers,
Shafique

First of all, I m curious how you can interpret the verses and make exceptions in Quran, to satisfy your own logic.

I can't see where God says that Muhammad, pbuh, is infallible in all things when all the verses are taken into consideration and the above v3 is read with the subsequent verses.

let s see another verse of Quran which says The prophet is the symbol and model for all muslims and in all aspects of their lives:

Sura Al-ahzab: "Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much. (21)"

So a person who can make mistakes, how should be a model for other muslims?

Besides where in Quran, The God stated that the prophet made mistake about the blind man and that other one you mentioned?

Muhammad, pbuh, is a perfect model for humans. However, as a human he is not infallible - and shows that even the best of humans can make mistakes, but can also obey God's laws and be free from sin.

Muslims believe he was free from sin (he didn't break any of God's laws) - but God Himself says he committed an error which displeased God (frowning at the blind man - see Surah 80). Making mistakes is part of being a human, and Islam does not count mistakes as sins.

Given that I've shown that God says, in the Quran, that Noah was not infallible - I believe my view is rational that the Quran does not support the belief of infallibility of Prophets.

As I said, many Muslims (despite these facts) do believe Muhammad, pbuh, and other Prophets like Noah were infallible. The Shia extend this infallibility to their Imams. All I have done is point out that Quran and Hadith do not support this particular belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

All I have done is point out that Quran and Hadith do not support this particular belief.

No you didnt. Please make the refrence where Quran says Muhammmad can make mistakes?

Edit - (I thought you said there was still a debate going on regarding the infallibility of prophets - I must have misread)

On the subject of the error committed by the Prophet, pbuh, that God admonishes him for - have a look at this tafsir of ch 80:
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=136


Let me know if that doesn't satisfy the point of God saying in the Quran that Muhammad, pbuh (as well as Noah) both committing mistakes.

Cheers,
Shafique

hehe Shaf you make me to dig up all my last knowledge about Islam, actually I have forgotten all of this, but anyway to answer you I should say, That chapter is not directly to Muhammad. The tafsir you referred to is just one of "tafsir"s of that Chapter. the other one that other muslims believed in is in "Majma-ol-bayan", which says this chapter is about the other guy from "Bani-Umayya", who frowned at the blind man.

So in this chapter,words are not directly to Muhammad, and differnt scholars have their different interpretion. So in answer to the verse I qouted earlier, which said Muhammad can not say anything for his own desire, you didn't mention anything from Quran yet.

melika969 wrote:

I haven't found a scholar who can explain it, but I believe in a just God and the wisdom of the Prophet, so I take it on trust. That's faith. To have real knowledge of Islam is to study it for a long time; eventually, I might find an interpretation that satisfies me

Albert Einstein: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity"

" ........and I'm not sure about the former"

The most overused quote in human history and you still can't state it in completion. Says a lot about someone claiming the stupidity of others.