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Well come to think of it UAE bankruptcy laws are much much more lenient than any where else, simply because it does not have any.

What you are referring to is the bounced cheque law. As far as I can remember in the late 80's or early 90's (???) there was a lot of fraud going on with regards to people intentionally issuing bad cheques so a dud cheque was made a criminal offence.

Dahi khalfan Dubai Cheif of police also recently commented that personal loans or what not are a matter between the bank and the individual and the police cannot do anything in that regards only a dud cheque is a criminal offence so it becomes a police matter.

People in their greed for quick and easy loans blindly gave out blanks cheques ( which I think is not entirely legal in itself for the bans to ask for one ? ) There are lot of people working in companies on the "preferred" list of banks were given out credit cards and loans without "security" cheques and basically the bank now cannot do anything other that just issue empty threats.

But hopefully now the public and the banks will be more wise in their dealings and there will be proper assesement before any more loans are dished out.

Gold has been shooting up all times high!

sage & onion wrote:That in truth is the whole point;

And they don't even have anyone to bail them out.

at leat Dubai is part and parcel of the UAE, the Leader just happens to be Prime Minister of the UAE.

The UAE recorded a trade surplus of AED231 Trillion that is $62.69 Trillion.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.a ... n=business

231 trillion? Why the networth of one of the world's largest sovereign fund ADIA is just about 1 trillion. Where the rest of the surplus go? Besides if 231 trillion was the surplus for a population of 6 million people?
231 trillion divided by 6 million = thirty-eight million five hundred thousand.
Is that really my net worth Sage?

Misery Called Life wrote:

sage & onion wrote:That in truth is the whole point;

And they don't even have anyone to bail them out.

at leat Dubai is part and parcel of the UAE, the Leader just happens to be Prime Minister of the UAE.

The UAE recorded a trade surplus of AED231 Trillion that is $62.69 Trillion.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.a ... n=business

231 trillion? Why the networth of one of the world's largest sovereign fund ADIA is just about 1 trillion. Where the rest of the surplus go? Besides if 231 trillion was the surplus for a population of 6 million people?
231 trillion divided by 6 million = thirty-eight million five hundred thousand.
Is that really my net worth Sage?

dont get me wrong and i am NOT taking sides but.............

I can sympathise with the sooth sayers crying "all is lost".

SAge you like me bought at the outset so we have no axe to grind, indeed we have both made a lot of money from our investments. But please all spare a thought for those who have bought "off-plan" in the last 2 years.

They have been basically shafted from a great height. The financial controls in dubai sucks big time and the lack of control has meant a lot of people have lost a lot of money to the big players ie Dubai Inc which controls Emaar, DP Nakheel etc.

People have paid deposits which they will in all probability loose to unfinshed projects. They have basically raided Escrow accounts and used other peoples money to complete projects belonging to other investors. The master developers have taken a lot of people for mugs. They have acted in nothing less than a dishonest way and they have no one to blame but themselves.

And they expect sympathy in expecting to be bailed out !! Thats really rich.

Sage - i wouldn't believe anything printed in the Khaeej Times, be careful when you quote from government controlled sources.

Well to be honest UAE bankkruptcy laws are much much more lenient that anywhere else, simple because it does not have any.

What your people are referring to with regards to having debtors jailed is the bounced cheque or dud cheque law. It was in the late 80's and 90's ( ??? ) that a lot of cheque fraud was going on, i.e : a lot of people issuing know dud cheques and swindling people out of money, goods or services. So to curb that a dud cheque was made a criminal offence.

Dahi Khalfan. Chief of Police Dubai recently said the personal loans and what not are a matter between the lender and borrower and the police has nothing to do with it but a bounced cheque is a crimial offense so the police will get involved.

People in their greed gave out blanks cheques for quick loans and easy credit cards without even thinking once about the consquences.

Hopefully te public and the banks now will be a bit more vigilant while borrowing and lending. The banks need to look at persons finacial wealth, assets and liablities before issuing any credit and not like before a three month bank statement and a blank cheque and viola you automatically qualify !

desertdudeshj wrote:Well come to think of it UAE bankruptcy laws are much much more lenient than any where else, simply because it does not have any.

What you are referring to is the bounced cheque law. As far as I can remember in the late 80's or early 90's (???) there was a lot of fraud going on with regards to people intentionally issuing bad cheques so a dud cheque was made a criminal offence.

Dahi khalfan Dubai Cheif of police also recently commented that personal loans or what not are a matter between the bank and the individual and the police cannot do anything in that regards only a dud cheque is a criminal offence so it becomes a police matter.

People in their greed for quick and easy loans blindly gave out blanks cheques ( which I think is not entirely legal in itself for the bans to ask for one ? ) There are lot of people working in companies on the "preferred" list of banks were given out credit cards and loans without "security" cheques and basically the bank now cannot do anything other that just issue empty threats.

But hopefully now the public and the banks will be more wise in their dealings and there will be proper assesement before any more loans are dished out.

whatever you say ....but certainly not lenient, I would say ruthless, I know personally 5 persons who have been imprisonned after they missed their 2nd car payment. Regarding bounced cheques, you got it all wrong again, they are bounced only because people were forced to write post dated cheques, and then found themselves jobless, that 's a complete different story. Dont make it sound like some dude walked into a store to buy a flat screen with a dud cheque.

arniegang wrote:dont get me wrong and i am NOT taking sides but.............

I can sympathise with the sooth sayers crying "all is lost".

SAge you like me bought at the outset so we have no axe to grind, indeed we have both made a lot of money from our investments. But please all spare a thought for those who have bought "off-plan" in the last 2 years.

They have been basically shafted from a great height. The financial controls in dubai sucks big time and the lack of control has meant a lot of people have lost a lot of money to the big players ie Dubai Inc which controls Emaar, DP Nakheel etc.

People have paid deposits which they will in all probability loose to unfinshed projects. They have basically raided Escrow accounts and used other peoples money to complete projects belonging to other investors. The master developers have taken a lot of people for mugs. They have acted in nothing less than a dishonest way and they have no one to blame but themselves.

And they expect sympathy in expecting to be bailed out !! Thats really rich.

Sage - i wouldn't believe anything printed in the Khaeej Times, be careful when you quote from government controlled sources.

Well said arnie!

arniegang wrote:dont get me wrong and i am NOT taking sides but.............

I can sympathise with the sooth sayers crying "all is lost".

SAge you like me bought at the outset so we have no axe to grind, indeed we have both made a lot of money from our investments. But please all spare a thought for those who have bought "off-plan" in the last 2 years.

They have been basically shafted from a great height. The financial controls in dubai sucks big time and the lack of control has meant a lot of people have lost a lot of money to the big players ie Dubai Inc which controls Emaar, DP Nakheel etc.

People have paid deposits which they will in all probability loose to unfinshed projects. They have basically raided Escrow accounts and used other peoples money to complete projects belonging to other investors. The master developers have taken a lot of people for mugs. They have acted in nothing less than a dishonest way and they have no one to blame but themselves.

And they expect sympathy in expecting to be bailed out !! Thats really rich.

Sage - i wouldn't believe anything printed in the Khaeej Times, be careful when you quote from government controlled sources.

Now this I could vouch for. Keepin' em honest Arnie.

sage & onion wrote:For those who like to bash Dubai at every given opportunity try this on for size:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat-a.htm

The total debt of the USA $ 57 Trillion - - and soaring

or how about;

£2trillion - the terrifying total of our national debt... that's £33,000 for every man, woman and child in Britain

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... itain.html

Sage the GDP of the US in 2008 was 15 trillion, UAE 163 billion....so a comparison is baseless

80 billion divided by 163 billion = 0.490797546
that mean for every 1 buck of income 50 fils is .........(fill in the blanks)

In the US currently debt is something like 90% of GDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ernal_debt (shocking stuff)


But the most valid point here is that since Jefferson the US has never defaulted on it's debt, will it the future? .

I agree the bounced cheque law sucks and they should look into this but when you say people were forced into wirting PDC's ? What there was a gun held to their heads ? I would never now or before give out a blank cheque. It was the publics own greed. Just gave out whatever the bank requested for in order to get the easy loans.

And sorry to hear about your friends being in the slammer for missing car payments but I can tell you personally my brother lost his job many years ago stopped his car payments and countinued to drive his car around for many years ( without resgistration and insurance !! ueah I know but hey I couldnt do anything ) only to be stopped by the coppers in dubai and confistating the car. Similar case with a friend his days bussiness went down the drain but he kept on driving aswell, similarly the coppers stopped the car his son was driving at the moment. They just confisticated the car.

No idea why your friends are in the slammer for missing the car payments. Maybe attitude or zero people skills ???

Anyways, discussion is getting too tedious and boring now and we are just going around in circles. Doomsday sayers will be just that, Doomsday sayers. Just go back into this forum according to some threads and post Dubai should be a deserted wasteland by now. But hey were still here arn't we

desertdudeshj wrote:I agree the bounced cheque law sucks and they should look into this but when you say people were forced into wirting PDC's ? What there was a gun held to their heads ? I would never now or before give out a blank cheque. It was the publics own greed. Just gave out whatever the bank requested for in order to get the easy loans.

And sorry to hear about your friends being in the slammer for missing car payments but I can tell you personally my brother lost his job many years ago stopped his car payments and countinued to drive his car around for many years ( without resgistration and insurance !! ueah I know but hey I couldnt do anything ) only to be stopped by the coppers in dubai and confistating the car. Similar case with a friend his days bussiness went down the drain but he kept on driving aswell, similarly the coppers stopped the car his son was driving at the moment. They just confisticated the car.

No idea why your friends are in the slammer for missing the car payments. Maybe attitude or zero people skills ???

He lost his job, hence his residence visa, how come was he driving around for years? please explain.

Don't get your panties all in a twsit trying to figure it out ! Simply we have an over 30 year old family bussines which takes cares of all our visa related and some other issues.

Plus if it wasn't the case, never heard of people overstaying or illeagal immigrants. Come on man don't act so naive !

RobbyG wrote:Hitting the newsstreams today (and yesterday) surrounding Dubai Inc. government holding; Dubai World and subsidiaries on brink of default. Debt payments on hold for coming 6 months. Restructuring of (part of) $59 billion at hand.
Tighten your bellies expats... debt is not the solution. MCL will be able to tell you all about CDS instruments and junk bonds.
Inquiring minds should note that this is basically a bounced cheque
Right MCL?

Well if you wrote a CDS or purchased one at the right time my friend there is bucket loads of money to be made right now. And if you remember we were talking bout this eventuality from way back when June- July? If we had the moolah to pick up a CDS why complain? I never said debt is the soloution...good or bad who cares?? as long as you stay on the right side of the fence there's money to be made

Reading the bloomberg articles this was shocking and so stupid....I'll quote "
The cost of Dubai’s contracts(CDS) is 51 basis points more than for Iceland, where the failure of the banking system triggered the collapse of the currency and economy last year. "

Either Iceland is recovering( is it Rob?), CDS writers are unrealistically pessismistic or they know something we don't?

RobbyG wrote:Inquiring minds should note that this is basically a bounced cheque

LOL..that was a classic man

Misery Called Life wrote:

RobbyG wrote:Hitting the newsstreams today (and yesterday) surrounding Dubai Inc. government holding; Dubai World and subsidiaries on brink of default. Debt payments on hold for coming 6 months. Restructuring of (part of) $59 billion at hand.
Tighten your bellies expats... debt is not the solution. MCL will be able to tell you all about CDS instruments and junk bonds.
Inquiring minds should note that this is basically a bounced cheque
Right MCL?

Well if you wrote a CDS or purchased one at the right time my friend there is bucket loads of money to be made right now. And if you remember we were talking bout this eventuality from way back when June- July? If we had the moolah to pick up a CDS why complain? I never said debt is the soloution...good or bad who cares?? as long as you stay on the right side of the fence there's money to be made

Reading the bloomberg articles this was shocking and so stupid....I'll quote "
The cost of Dubai’s contracts(CDS) is 51 basis points more than for Iceland, where the failure of the banking system triggered the collapse of the currency and economy last year. "

Either Iceland is recovering( is it Rob?), CDS writers are unrealistically pessismistic or they know something we don't?

What that article tries to indicate is that at the peak of Icelands troubles, the premium for CDS insurance was 51 basispoints (bp) lower than Dubai is at the moment. This means that the current risk of default for Dubai is considered higher in the investment community than it was for Iceland. In the end, the insurance premium on CDS instruments is based on demand for risk insurance. The higher the demand, the higher the premium.

Iceland is not really recovering yet. The economic climate is harsch. Investment is still low because loans are hard to get. The young people of Iceland will pay dearly for their parents mistakes of the past.

Even MacDonalds left Iceland as prices for burger imports were unsustainable.

Sage....Remember? September 2009, quote:

Dubai can repay its Islamic bond debts worth $4.52 billion this year, says the emirate’s ruler Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum.

“I assure you we are alright, the UAE is alright, and we are not worried,” Sheikh Mohammed said at his Zabeel palace in Dubai, when reporters asked if Dubai will meet its financial commitments this year.

Misery Called Life wrote:

sage & onion wrote:That in truth is the whole point;

And they don't even have anyone to bail them out.

at leat Dubai is part and parcel of the UAE, the Leader just happens to be Prime Minister of the UAE.

The UAE recorded a trade surplus of AED231 Trillion that is $62.69 Trillion.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.a ... n=business

231 trillion? Why the networth of one of the world's largest sovereign fund ADIA is just about 1 trillion. Where the rest of the surplus go? Besides if 231 trillion was the surplus for a population of 6 million people?
231 trillion divided by 6 million = thirty-eight million five hundred thousand.
Is that really my net worth Sage?

You may think it is all a joke however a few figures for you to digest;

Average Oil Price 2008 = $91.41

Oil Production average for 2008 = 2,500,000 barrels per day.

365 x $91.41 x 2,500,000 = $83,411,625,000

That is in US Dollars, when you also add in the fact that most of the oil exploration was done when the price was in the teens to low twenties, you can see huge surpluses.
The other thing that is hardly ever discussed is the amount of income the UAE earns from investments overseas.

While Dubai isnt going to collapse anytime soon, a lot of people are pretending that all is fine simply because its in their interests to say so...

DDS, come one, when you say bankruptcy laws are very lenient here, you know its BS!

Banks can and do have people imprisoned for missing loan payments, and no its not always people with attitude who face it.

Just because you have things well-off doesnt mean one should pretend that people in trouble have themselves to blame...The bankruptcy laws here are very strict and when one sees Dubai Inc unable to pay its loans, it just shows the stinking hypocrisy .....

BlackburnRovers wrote:While Dubai isnt going to collapse anytime soon, a lot of people are pretending that all is fine simply because its in their interests to say so...

DDS, come one, when you say bankruptcy laws are very lenient here, you know its BS!

Banks can and do have people imprisoned for missing loan payments, and no its not always people with attitude who face it.

Just because you have things well-off doesnt mean one should pretend that people in trouble have themselves to blame...The bankruptcy laws here are very strict and when one sees Dubai Inc unable to pay its loans, it just shows the stinking hypocrisy .....

I would agree that many people deny that their are problems, I for one freely acknowledge that their are many, I also am confident that Dubai will recover from this situation. It will take time, in all probability several years I will also stay around to do my little bit to assist.
I was raised by my Father who was totally against any form of debt, his principle was simple if you can't afford it then don't buy it. I have to admit that I have not always followed this advice, however over the past decade I certainly have.
The laws here regarding bounced cheques are harsh, however that law was put in place for a reason.

sage & onion wrote:

BlackburnRovers wrote:While Dubai isnt going to collapse anytime soon, a lot of people are pretending that all is fine simply because its in their interests to say so...

DDS, come one, when you say bankruptcy laws are very lenient here, you know its BS!

Banks can and do have people imprisoned for missing loan payments, and no its not always people with attitude who face it.

Just because you have things well-off doesnt mean one should pretend that people in trouble have themselves to blame...The bankruptcy laws here are very strict and when one sees Dubai Inc unable to pay its loans, it just shows the stinking hypocrisy .....

I would agree that many people deny that their are problems, I for one freely acknowledge that their are many, I also am confident that Dubai will recover from this situation. It will take time, in all probability several years I will also stay around to do my little bit to assist.
I was raised by my Father who was totally against any form of debt, his principle was simple if you can't afford it then don't buy it. I have to admit that I have not always followed this advice, however over the past decade I certainly have.
The laws here regarding bounced cheques are harsh, however that law was put in place for a reason.

Must be difficult for you to admit that Sheikh Mohammed should be included in those who deny there are problems, .....see his quote above, it is crystal clear.

Well big brother UAE should pull some money out of the mattress and help Dubai then because the stock markets around the world fell with the news. Would it ever be scary now if it was found that the books were doctored and the UAE doesn't have as much coin as they say they do.

We've all seen the bank scandals over that. Time and time again. As far as the USA goes they have massive debt but are technology rich and have thousands of unused wells capped in their country. Never used. They keep their own for last. Use every one else's first. Let alone their military might. You don't pay debt with sand so comparing debt is no good. Besides the USA is a huge country. And they have us (Canada) as their buddy. A resource rich country.

I do hope Dubai gets their finances fixed and restores faith back into the markets.

Must be difficult for you to admit that Sheikh Mohammed should be included in those who deny there are problems, .....see his quote above, it is crystal clear.

I don't agree with your statement regarding HH Sheikh Mohammed, he admits that their are problems here, however he is also working to try and resolve the issues.

sage & onion wrote:You may think it is all a joke however a few figures for you to digest;

Average Oil Price 2008 = $91.41

Oil Production average for 2008 = 2,500,000 barrels per day.

365 x $91.41 x 2,500,000 = $83,411,625,000

That is in US Dollars, when you also add in the fact that most of the oil exploration was done when the price was in the teens to low twenties, you can see huge surpluses.
The other thing that is hardly ever discussed is the amount of income the UAE earns from investments overseas.

I don't quite understand how all these digits concern to Dubai. Why will AD pay for Dubai and mistakes of its companes? The UAE has been always more like confederation with very small joint budget. Each on its own.
As I red in the local media oil contributed only 6% in the Dubai's budget last years. This digit is more relevant to the topic I think.

I have to agree with Red Chief on this. Also 80% of Dubai population is not local. Since the old customs and beliefs have been getting abused by the foreigners they just might let it go back to desert. For the forum members that live there, I hope not. Here is a figure about the USA.(trivial)
One aircraft carrier they have amongst the huge arsenal they have. We will not even mention the space program and all the satellites.

George H W Bush (CVN - 77) was delivered on May 11, 2009. Price tag. $6.2 Billion. I don't think that covers the cost of the jets they carry on it. A few rigged aircraft carriers are worth as much as Dubai's debt. Never compare apples to peanuts.

Red Chief wrote:

sage & onion wrote:You may think it is all a joke however a few figures for you to digest;

Average Oil Price 2008 = $91.41

Oil Production average for 2008 = 2,500,000 barrels per day.

365 x $91.41 x 2,500,000 = $83,411,625,000

That is in US Dollars, when you also add in the fact that most of the oil exploration was done when the price was in the teens to low twenties, you can see huge surpluses.
The other thing that is hardly ever discussed is the amount of income the UAE earns from investments overseas.

I don't quite understand how all these digits concern to Dubai. Why will AD pay for Dubai and mistakes of its companes? The UAE has been always more like confederation with very small joint budget. Each on its own.
As I red in the local media oil contributed only 6% in the Dubai's budget last years. This digit is more relevant to the topic I think.

Of course it's relevant, Dubai is one of the seven United Arab Emirates and as such the Federal Reserve Bank is on hand. the 6% figure you quote is Dubai's own Oil Production which in itself is very small.

sage & onion wrote:
Of course it's relevant, Dubai is one of the seven United Arab Emirates and as such the Federal Reserve Bank is on hand. the 6% figure you quote is Dubai's own Oil Production which in itself is very small.

"On hand"? What does it mean? Dubai's construction firms borrowed money under guaranty of the Federal Reserve Bank, didn't they? I don't think so. Share your knowledge pls.
Other question is what capital this bank has and how it's correspond to the wealth of AD.

Two more reports on Dubai debt crisis came out today from MSNBC and The Economist (if you're not already sick of reading about it):

Dubai debt plea sends fear around world!
Once one of the world's richest cities, emirate now can't pay its bills

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34165138/ns ... business//


Dubai's debt

Standing still but still standing

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... p;fsrc=nwl

I have a payment on my loan due on Dec. 17. I'm going to ask for a "standstill", and we'll see what happens!!!!

sage & onion wrote:

Must be difficult for you to admit that Sheikh Mohammed should be included in those who deny there are problems, .....see his quote above, it is crystal clear.

I don't agree with your statement regarding HH Sheikh Mohammed, he admits that their are problems here, however he is also working to try and resolve the issues.

Sage....where do you read he admits problems?
This is what Sheikh Mohammed said on September 9, 2009 in Arabian Business.
"Dubai can repay its Islamic bond debts worth $4.52 billion this year"....... NO Dubai CANNOT, period!

“I assure you we are alright, the UAE is alright, and we are not worried,” Sheikh Mohammed said at his Zabeel palace in Dubai, when reporters asked if Dubai will meet its financial commitments this year.....
NO it s NOT alright, Dubai is broke and a shame worldwide.

I would not want to be in your sandals, everything you said on this forum was smoke and mirrors, and even at the blink of collapse you will still claim Dubai is a paradise. Go back to your posts, today they are laughable.

Can any one throw light on the consequences and the effect on common man in case of Dubai default?
is it unsafe to invest in here from now on? shall one pull out their cash from Dubai banks and shift it back home?