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shafique · Oct 27, 2009

Oh - I'll wait for you to get to above 100 terrorists before I include the terrorist acts carried out by the Lord's Resistance Army in Africa. That will probably double the numbers on my side, at least - but no use scaring you too much right now... let's see what your final total is for Europe, Asia and America before we move on to Africa.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 27, 2009

26+116+12+16+21+45=236 killed

vs

267 killed.

And I am being generous by not disputing your 'source' and including attacks carried out by Marxists in your list.

It should also speak volumes that in Christianity, Tony Blair is on par with Muslim fanatics (because he supports gay marriage?) who seek to establish a religious theocracy and roll society back to the seventh century.

'nuff said.

shafique · Oct 27, 2009

I admire your conversion to the stats - initially you were reluctant to count victims, now you seem to have an aversion to counting the number of terrorists. I guess the selective quoting habit is a hard one to break!

But your arithmetic is letting yourself down - if you want to include the 21 and 45 killed in your list, then the numbers killed in my list jump to a conservative 10,267. Please try and keep up.

As for your contempt of Tony Blair - I take it you don't approve of his conversion to Catholicism. It does seem odd that you seem able to condemn all other terrorists EXCEPT Jewish terrorists like Goldstein. But hey - let's allow the stats to speak for themselves.

Don't forget to count the terrorists as well - what is your number now, 7 ??

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

We already went over this - Tony Blair does not meet the criteria for this thread.

But I'm happy to play this game - do you have any sources that show 10,000 civilians were directly killed by the British military?

shafique · Oct 28, 2009

So, you do want to include your 45 and 21 victims where converts did not directly kill the victims - fair enough, I'm allowing you to set the rules.

As for the 10,000 count - you can take your pick of the statistics, as I've played it very conservatively.

I took into consideration the UNICEF report that said that sanctions against Iraq had led to 500,000 deaths of infants in Iraq (this was before the war) and that the conditions for these infants did not improve with the war. I also took into account the civilian casualties in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, but allowed for the fact that the majority were killed by US forces and a large number were killed by sectarian violence.

Part of the problem though is that the 'coalition' has chosen not to count the casualties of the civilian population, let alone the combatants. This disregard for the humanity of the people attacking is a feature of terrorism.

What is your estimate of the civilian casualties that Blair should be allocated? I think 10,000 is a grave underestimate - but I'll be happy to revise it if you come up with a more credible result.

Some links for your research:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

The IBC's count of civilians violently killed (in verified incidents, so is probably an underestimate) in Iraq is over 60,000:

Using the extensive and detailed database of Iraq Body Count (IBC), the researchers analyzed 14,196 events in which 60,481 civilians were violently killed during the first five years of the conflict in Iraq, thereby gaining an extraordinary overview of the harm that different weapons — from low to high tech — have brought to Iraq's civilian population.

And this article by a member of IBC in 2006 exposes Blair's involvement/complicity (pretty much stating the obvious really):
http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalizat ... e_3718.jsp

Now add to that the civilian casualties in Afghanistan - just do a Google on this one, wiki has a page, but so does the UN, HRW etc

And, as I said earlier, you also need to factor in the effect of sanctions between 2001 and 2003 on the death rate of toddlers.

Let me know your estimate.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Oct 28, 2009

double post

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

No, I don't believe that civilians killed by the British military during their invasion of Iraq should be included in this thread on converts to other religions who become *religious fanatics*. I included the bombings of a Tunisian synagogue and the Casablanca bombings because the converts to Islam (who were convicted as either the leaders in the bombings or perps who played a leading role) were members of al-Qaeda or other similar Salafi groups.

But hey, perhaps you can still grasp at straws in your claim that Blair is a religious extremist, let alone one on par with an al-Qaeda member. Perhaps someone will believe you.

As I said, I'll go ahead and humor you now although I see that you still have not addressed my question but continued to evade it. What are the number of Iraqi civilian casualties who were directly killed by the British military?

I see that you still have not filtered out Iraqi deaths from insurgent and militia groups and American forces in your estimate - although you apparently want me to do your research for you.

Oh well, I guess this is another incident of all mouth no trousers.

Let me know when you've gone through the archives and tallied up your results.

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

shafique · Oct 28, 2009

I can't see how I'm evading your question - I gave my estimate at 10,000 which is quite low given the numbers of civilian casualties.

I was quite happy to not include civilians indirectly killed by converts - but you chose to include the 45 killed in Tunisia (who weren't directly killed by a convert).

It is really down to you - if you want to include those indirectly killed (or those killed by suspected converts), then I'll have to add these to my totals as well.

Even if I reduce my estimate of those indirectly killed by Mr Blair's actions by 90% - that still gives me 1000 extra deaths and swamps your numbers.

But as I said, I stand by my 10,000 and have provided the links of the civilian deaths caused by the invasions. The link between Blair and the deaths of Iraqi and Afghan civilians is as strong as the link between the Pole Convert and the 45 killed in Tunisia.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Oct 28, 2009

Apologies for asking yet again - but what is your latest count of actual terrorists now?

Has it reached 10 yet?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

My count passed ten quite a while ago - this also includes two successful suicide bombers which, afaik, the only converts who have carried out suicide attacks have been those converts to Islam.

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

Even if I reduce my estimate of those indirectly killed by Mr Blair's actions by 90% - that still gives me 1000 extra deaths and swamps your numbers.

Why not go ahead and present your numbers???

shafique · Oct 28, 2009

I have, my count is an additional 10,000 if we count indirect deaths caused by converts. Sheesh - try and keep up eh.

Now, what was your count of terrorists again? Have you reached 10 yet? (I know you say you think you've passed 10, but I can't see where you've actually given a count..)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 28, 2009

Yes, I agree you have your count. But your count is made up, that is why I'm rejecting it until you trawl through the archives and provide an actual figure based on research.

shafique · Oct 29, 2009

You are free to accept or reject my count (you have other quaint beliefs that aren't based on evidence) - however, the question I asked was:

What is your count of actual terrorists?

My count (fully referenced) still stands at:

My count is 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

If you don't agree with the 232 NLFT terrorists whose actions are clearly detailed, then you are free to give us your modified count.

In the meantime, your count of less than 10 is looking pretty anaemic. But then again, when statistics show up a false belief the tendency is to first go into denial before displaying anger. Don't worry, you'll soon get to acceptance.

So, what was your count again?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 29, 2009

Actually I was referring to your quaint belief that the British military killed 10,000 Iraqi civilians, hence my request that you trawl through the archives for yourself and confirm your own claim - as opposed to having someone else doing your work for you.

I'm happy to include even more Muslim convert terrorists who carried out terror attacks as well. If I recall, India is home to a training camp of convert Islamic extremists and many converts have been implicated in the numerous Jihad terror attacks against the state of India.

It's also interesting that Muslim terrorist converts, unlike Christian converts who are relegated to illiterate, third world regions of the world, are often persons from the West, educated and with no history of violence prior to their conversion to Islam. Yet, despite this, there is a worrisome trend of educated Western converts to become violent terrorists based on the texts and teachings of Islam.

shafique · Oct 29, 2009

What is your count?

(As I stated before, it is your choice whether to include converts who did not directly kill people - you wanted to include the Polish convert -I'll continue to separate out the two - one count for actual terrorists who actually killed people and excludes those 'suspected' to be terrorists, and one that includes indirect killings by converts).

As I said -

My count is 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester · Oct 29, 2009

who said tony blair / uk is a christian country?

Terrorist activities/wars started by athiests = 0

shafique · Oct 29, 2009

Blair is a practicing Catholic and a convert - and I agree he didn't directly kill anyone, but neither did the Polish Convert to Islam that eh-oh wants to include in his count.

As for atheists not being terrorists, I can think of quite a few examples -but two will suffice.

1. ETA in Spain - terrorists with a Marxist viewpoint, fighting for independent Basque homeland.

2. Irgun in Palestine - carried out arguably the first modern day terrorist attacks, such as the bombing of King David Hotel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing

One of their leaders was Menachem Begin who later became PM of Israel. Irgun were a secular Zionist organisation - fighting not for religion but to gain control of Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester · Oct 29, 2009

Sorry shafique what i mean is terrorism 'in the name of athiesm' do you get what i mean?

Christians and Muslims as have all other religions, have been bad throughout milennia.

shafique · Oct 29, 2009

Roadtester wrote:Sorry shafique what i mean is terrorism 'in the name of athiesm' do you get what i mean?

Yes - agree with you there. Blowing people up to make them not believe in God isn't a feature of atheists - can't argue with that.

Roadtester wrote:Christians and Muslims as have all other religions, have been bad throughout milennia.

Yep - no argument with that either.

I have argued in the past that more people have been killed for non-religious reasons, notably land-grabs, racism and nationalism in general, but there's no denying the carnage of the various 'Holy Wars' and Crusades etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester · Oct 29, 2009

but again many of these non-religious actions are rooted in religious validation. Take africa christianity mis-interpreted 'Ham being cursed to be black' to validate the actions. I dont know the islamic world justified its slavery of east africans of which at the height was supposed to be 10 x what was going to europe/americas.

Jamal · Oct 30, 2009

Roadtester wrote:but again many of these non-religious actions are rooted in religious validation. Take africa christianity mis-interpreted 'Ham being cursed to be black' to validate the actions. I dont know the islamic world justified its slavery of east africans of which at the height was supposed to be 10 x what was going to europe/americas.

where did you get your information from ... wikipedia??? haha

aint no slavery ever gone on in any islamic state ....

the west created an started terror then stuck it onto islam ...
now you wanna stick slavery tooo .... common homie ... get your facts right.

shafique · Oct 30, 2009

Roadtester wrote:but again many of these non-religious actions are rooted in religious validation. Take africa christianity mis-interpreted 'Ham being cursed to be black' to validate the actions.

I agree that a lot of the injustices carried out by Europeans against indiginous people around the world were condoned and encouraged by the Church - however, I make a distinction between the justifications of the land grabs made by the Christian colonials and attributing the spread of Christianity as the main motivator.

The likes of Rhodes in Africa and the East India Company (British) in India are what I'd use in support of this view - that primarily it was a grab for resources (as it has always been in imperial expansions) that was then usurped by Christian missionaries.

I have some sympathy for the view that Apartheid was justified using the Bible.

Roadtester wrote: I dont know the islamic world justified its slavery of east africans of which at the height was supposed to be 10 x what was going to europe/americas.

I'm not sure of the stats - the scale of the transatlantic slave trade was huge, but I would hazard a guess that the justifications used by the Arab slave traders was the same as used by the African slave traders - primarily economic. The Quran does not say it is ok to deal in slaves - other than to pay to secure their release.

That said, I do see modern day slavery going on in the Gulf to this day... but that is purely down to economics!

Anyway - I don't want to appear to be disagreeing with the gist of your argument - that religious reasons have been used in many instances to justify terrorism, enslavement, colonialism etc. I was actually only making the narrow point that as bad as all these incidents were, in my view the numbers killed by non-religously motivated wars/invasions/slavery/colonialism outnumbers the former. Certainly if we look at the 20th century, this is clearly the case - not just the WW, look at all the other major conflicts resulting in mass deaths.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 30, 2009

shafique wrote:What is your count?

(As I stated before, it is your choice whether to include converts who did not directly kill people - you wanted to include the Polish convert -I'll continue to separate out the two - one count for actual terrorists who actually killed people and excludes those 'suspected' to be terrorists, and one that includes indirect killings by converts).

As I said -

My count is 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

What is your count?

Cheers,
Shafique

Still spouting out that imaginary number. Let me know when you've combed through the archives and actually counted the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the British military.

We can also see if Blair is actually a religious fanatic - you seem to be inclined to include just any convert but I tend to make a distinction between converts who are religious fanatics to their new religion and ones who are not necessarily motivated to carry out violent attacks (or in this case secular wars) based on the texts and teachings of their religion.

A convert to Islam who later joins up with al-Qaeda and orchestrates attacks against synagogues/Western targets would tend to be categorized in the former rather than the latter category - at least, I would think.

event horizon · Oct 30, 2009

One more radical Muslim convert who carried out armed Jihad...

Radical Islamic leader killed in FBI raid in Detroit

By Mira Oberman (AFP) – 1 day ago

CHICAGO — The leader of a radical Islamic group who allegedly preached violence against the government to his mostly African American followers was shot and killed in an FBI raid near Detroit.

The FBI said it employed "special safeguards" to secure the safe arrest of 11 men accused of operating an organized crime ring in the Detroit area who were known to have "espoused the use of violence against law enforcement."

But Luqman Abdullah, 53, refused to surrender Wednesday and began firing when he was confronted in a warehouse in Dearborn, Michigan, the FBI said in a statement.

Abdullah was killed during the exchange of gunfire but nobody else was hurt, an FBI spokeswoman said.

An FBI criminal complaint described Abudullah as a "highly placed leader of a nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni group consisting primarily of African Americans, some of whom converted to Islam while they were servicing sentences in various prisons."

The FBI monitored Abdullah for years with the help of informants who brought back taped conversations and stories of how he used the mosque to train his followers for a violent jihad. [Typo - the article meant interior spiritual struggle]

Abdullah often boasted of killing police officers and of his plans to "take out the US government," the FBI said in a 45-page charge sheet.

He also spoke of his willingness to die for his cause and yelled in one sermon "do not carry a pistol if you're going to give it up to police. You give them a bullet," it said. [Peaceful sermon]

Even the children were trained in martial arts, the informants said, and evidence of a shooting range was found in the basement when the congregation was evicted by the city of Detroit for non-payment of property taxes in January.

Their primary mission was to establish a separate, sovereign Islamic state within the borders of the United States that would be ruled by their spiritual leader, former Black Panther Jamil Abdullah al-Amin, who is currently in jail for shooting two police officers.

But the charge sheet alleges Abdullah used jihad to justify stealing cars, televisions, guns, fur coats and burning down buildings for the insurance money.

Three of the 11 men accused of participating in the crime ring remain at large. They face a variety of charges including fraud, conspiracy, selling stolen goods, and illegal possession of firearms.

"Members and former members of the Masjid al-Haqq have stated they are willing to do anything Abdullah instructs and/or preaches, even including criminal conduct and acts of violence," the criminal complaint alleges.

It portrayed a paranoid and angry man with a short fuse who hated police, spoke of vast government conspiracies and was determined to fight for a "violent revolution" and kill anyone who betrayed his trust.

"We're not fake terrorists, we're the real terrorists," he allegedly told one informant after getting pulled over by the police in January.

"If they are coming to get me I'll just strap a bomb on and blow up everybody," he allegedly told followers on another occasion.

God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.

shafique · Oct 30, 2009

Thanks for the headlines - but I'm a little amused and perplexed at your on-going reluctance to add up your total of actual terrorists who were Muslim converts.

My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

Cheers,
Shafique

Roadtester · Oct 30, 2009

Jamal wrote:
Roadtester wrote:but again many of these non-religious actions are rooted in religious validation. Take africa christianity mis-interpreted 'Ham being cursed to be black' to validate the actions. I dont know the islamic world justified its slavery of east africans of which at the height was supposed to be 10 x what was going to europe/americas.

where did you get your information from ... wikipedia??? haha

aint no slavery ever gone on in any islamic state ....

the west created an started terror then stuck it onto islam ...
now you wanna stick slavery tooo .... common homie ... get your facts right.

Hey Jamal - chill

think you got the wrong end of what im saying. What I meant was "how did the Islamic world justify slavery?"

As christians had misused the bible I wondered if muslims had done the same?

shafique · Oct 30, 2009

^ I should really stop being surprised that the web keeps throwing up websites that cover every topic - but there is a site called 'arabslavetrade.com':

http://www.arabslavetrade.com/

Makes interesting reading -although I'm sure eh will decide he knows better and will dispute the facts there.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 30, 2009

shafique wrote:Thanks for the headlines - but I'm a little amused and perplexed at your on-going reluctance to add up your total of actual terrorists who were Muslim converts.

My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)

Cheers,
Shafique

I haven't even gotten to India yet - there are so many Western converts to Islam who become violent jihadists, that I am still doing research and uncovering new violent attacks carried out by convert Muslim fundamentalists fighting in the name of Islam, that this will take a lot longer than I had expected.

Although, it is humorous to see that you are still floating that unsubstantiated number around and are insisting that Tony Blair is a religious fanatic akin to Muslim converts who join al-Qaeda. But as I said, maybe you'll manage to convince someone that you know what you're talking about.

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Christian Vs Muslim Convert Terror Counts - The Results

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