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As the other thread was getting unwieldly, I started this one so that we can focus on the numbers.

I had one Catholic convert whose actions led to many hundreds of deaths, when we looked at the UK.

Expanding the search to Asia, I will be adding the following to my count.

I'll let eh supply his count in due course.

The links for the count are in this post - so people can verify the count (as I may make an adding error, given the large number of separate incidents over the 8 years we are examining):

shafique wrote:The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT_tl.htm

I make a count of around 32 killed in 2001, in around 20 different incidents.

I submit that my count now stands at considerably more than 20, and that killings/terrorist acts by Christian converts is considerably more than eh-ohs solitary numpty terrorist!!

Note that one of their objectives is to forcibly convert Hindus to Christianity!

To confirm that converts are part of this terrorist organisation - this BBC report states that the conversions to Christianity took place mostly after 1980 (prior to that, only a few thousand were converted). The story also explains how the church was complicit in supplying explosives.:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/717775.stm

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, I think I will have to do this year by year - starting with 2001.

I've selected only the incidents listed as caused by the Christian terrorists, and not those just 'suspected'. I've ignored the abductions and only counted the deaths and injuries.

Also, where numbers of terrorists are not given, I have conservatively only counted 2 for each (this will also allow for any double counting - where the same terrorists carry out multiple attacks). Where the number of terrorists are given, I have used this.

So, my figure for NLFT convert terrorist attacks for 2001 is:
Terrorists: 52
Killed victims: 29
Injured Victims: 25


There are no assumptions when it comes to the numbers killed or injured, so these are more reliable than the 'numbers of terrorists' - but I have erred on the side of caution and am under-estimating the numbers there.

Cheers,
Shafique

Again, what are you having problems understanding? The NFLT's membership is, I am sure, a reflection of the larger native Christian population of Tripura.

It is up to you to show that the attacks were carried out by converts to Christianity and if these converts were actually converts from Hinduism to Christianity or just one sect of Christianity to another.

Otherwise, these numbers are just spin.

We agree that these are Christian terrorists, and I've shown you that they are converts from Hinduism. I agree it is an inconvenient truth that Fox News doesn't highlight the brutality of these Christian terrorists who want to convert people to Christianity, but hey - you set the parameters.


Anyway, I've done 2001 to 2003, and will add the numbers here as I complete them.

Note that these are actual terrorist attacks and exclude the 'suspected' ones (there were quite a few in 2002).

Year No. Terrorists No. Victims Killed No. Injured
2001 52 29 25
2002 30 71 6
2003 87 110 24
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
Total 169 210 55

(apologies for the formatting, but it is 169 terrorists, 210 killed, 55 injured from the list I linked to)

No hurry with your figures eh, given the length of time it took for you to get to one terrorist, I'd hate to rush you now.

Cheers,
Shafique

We agree that these are Christian terrorists, and I've shown you that they are converts from Hinduism.

Please try and re-read your own posts (perhaps this is why you confused Paul for Peter?). The Baptist Church of Tripura is simply one sect in the Indian state and are a vast minority - with your article saying they have a few thousand converts (dating back since the 1940s?) - of the overall native Christian population in the Indian state, which has over 100,000 adherents.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is a group that is separate from the Baptist Church - which your articles says they share *close ties* with each other.

It is your job to find out if the attacks by the NLFT are carried out by former Hindus who converted to Christianity or by Christians who were Christians their entire lives, ie, the vast majority of the Christian population of Tripura.

This shouldn't be too difficult, but I can understand that someone who has never heard of an economy of words might not care about these subtle yet important differences.

Ahhh - what's the matter, is the prospect of counting up your totals causing you trouble?

These are Christian terrorists who want to convert hindus to Christianity - Church officials have supplied them with explosives etc. But whether they are officially part of the Baptist Church or not is moot - the issue is that these are terrorists and converts from Hinduism to Christianity. I'm not sure where you're getting your info that the majority of the terrorists are Christians by birth. (Which is an interesting viewpoint, in of itself!)

The fact that these converts are fighting in the name of Christianity (wanting to convert people by force) means that the count is particularly relevant.

Anyway - you can still use this thread to post your totals.

(note that it will be interesting to look at Africa in due course - Uganda will prove interesting, but hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves)

Cheers,
Shafique

What are you having difficulty understanding?

Your list is of crimes carried out by the NLFT. The majority of Christians residing in the Indian state are native Christians and, I would suspect, a majority of members to this baptist sect in the state are even native born - either switching sects or are the offspring of converts from Hinduism.

Since the majority of the members of the NLFT are not converts, it is your job to separate attacks carried out by genuine converts from attacks carried out by Christians who were Christians their entire lives.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info that the majority of the terrorists are Christians by birth. (Which is an interesting viewpoint, in of itself!)

Still confusing this baptist sect with the NLFT, I see.

In relation to how many converts etc:

In Tripura, for instance, there were no Christians at independence, the maharaja of the state was a Hindu and there were innumerable temples all over the State. But from 1950, Christian missionaries (with Nehru’s blessings) went into the deep forests of Tripura and started converting the Kukis. Today, according to official figures, there are 120,000 Christians in Tripura, a 90% increase since 1991. ...

Christ and North-East India
by Francois Gautier
The Indian Express
November 20, 2000


http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christ_and ... _india.htm

Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

It's unfortunate that some Christians have been corrupted by the teachings found in other religious books which say to attack unbelievers and those who attack unbelievers will become martyrs for killing being killed whilst fighting unbelievers.

Anyways, I'll wait for shafique to provide his stats for the numbers of civilians killed by the NFLT and if he includes soldiers, paramilitary, and police officers in his stats?

I also agree that africa will be interesting. The Sudanese government forcibly converted Christian youth and used some of these converts to attack their former Christian villages.

As the article I linked to in another thread, the civil war in the Sudan was one of the bloodiest conflicts in the past 60 years and the number of Christians and animists killed by the Sudanese government is truly countless.

(c) non-Muslims are forcibly converted to Islam and have their identity changed by being given Arabic names; and (d) in some cases, they are trained by the military in order to be sent to southern Sudan to fight the war.

http://www.meforum.org/319/the-un-finds ... -the-sudan

event horizon wrote:Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.

Great.

My totals are in the post above, I'll add to that when I get to the other years (2004 onwards).

The list is quite gruesome - includes women and children being killed. And the abductions aren't included in the list.

I guess you'll be some time compiling your count, so I guess my count can wait to next week.

I agree also that Africa should prove interesting.

Cheers.
Shafique

It looks like I won't have time to update the count this week as I had hoped.. so the count still stands at:

For the period 2001 to 2003:
No. Christian converts carrying out terrorist acts: 169*
No. people killed by these: 210

*this is a minimum figure, actual figure is higher due to conservative assumptions.

This compares with the period 2001 to 2009 and the latest equivalent count provided by eh of Muslim Converts carrying out terrorist attacks:

No. Muslim Converts carrying out Terrorist acts: 1
No. people killed: 26


I'll let eh convert his headlines into counts - but he has a way to go before reaching the 169 I have so far..

Cheers,
Shafique

Hmm, it seems that you've avoided my question. Are you including police/soldiers/paramilitary into this count?

169 vs 1

I'm not counting attacks between terrorist groups, or where the government forces have attacked the terrorists - the count of the Christian converts is being limited to where they are attacking and killing or injuring civilians. I have included all deaths causes by these attacks.

As I stated, the 169 is only for years 2001 to 2003 and is an underestimate.

That said, I've given the source of my stats and my assumptions - I'm happy for you to double check and give us your count (but I suspect you're going to struggle to cut through the hype of your Fox News headlines and get an updated count to add to your current count of one numpty .

As it stands, we have your one actual terrorist against my minimum of 169 and counting. At this stage, it looks like radical Christianity is more dangerous than radical Islam - but that this is not reflected in the 'Fox News' world of headlines. I'm not surprised, and the stats are revealing the reality vs the hype, as I suspected it would.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bump for eh - my count of actual terrorists who are converts still stands at 169, yours still stands at one.

I invite you to update your count and give the source of these new additions.

I think I'll update my figures for the next calendar year..

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, taking all the attacks into account, my estimate is as follows:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88


This excludes 'suspected' terrorist attacks and anyone reportedly killed in cross-fire.

The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... LFT_tl.htm



So, that makes it currently 232 actual Christian convert terrorists compared to one actual Muslim convert terrorist (until eh updates his count).

The numbers killed are 267 vs 26.


It appears that the Bible breeds more terrorist converts than the Quran - well, if we go by the Stats that is. Interesting that the Fox News headlines don't reflect this reality!

Cheers,
Shafique

Actually, if I am not mistaken, we were comparing all converts to other religions with converts only to Islam.

Anyways, I notice that you still have not distinguished between the parent insurgent group and the splinter group which is, apparently, the religious movement - the charter of the NFLT confirms that the original group does not discriminate in membership acceptance based on religion and is a nationalist/soft leftist organization without any call for the establishment of a theocracy (unlike Muslim groups in which there is no separation between religion and politics).

Let's add 116 to that death toll:

The 2004 SuperFerry 14 bombing on February 27, 2004, was an Islamic terrorist attack that resulted in the sinking of the ferry SuperFerry 14 and the deaths of 116 people in the Philippines' deadliest terrorist attack and the world's deadliest terrorist attack at sea.[1]

The 10,192-ton ferry sailed out of Manila for Cagayan de Oro City via Bacolod City and Iloilo City with about 900 passengers and crew. A television set containing an 8-pound (4 kilograms) TNT bomb had been placed on board. 90 minutes out of port, the bomb exploded. 63 people were killed immediately and 53 were missing and presumed dead.[2]

Despite claims from various terrorist groups, the blast was initially thought to have been an accident, caused by a gas explosion. However, after divers righted the ferry five months after it sank, they found evidence of a bomb blast. A man named Redondo Cain Dellosa also admitted to planting the bomb on board for the Abu Sayyaf guerrilla group.[2]

President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo announced on October 11, 2004, that investigators had concluded that the explosion had been caused by a bomb. She said six suspects had been arrested in connection with the bombing and that the masterminds, Khadaffy Janjalani and Abu Sulaiman, were still at large. It was believed that Abu Sayyaf bombed Superferry 14 because the company that owned it, WG&A, did not comply with a letter demanding USD $1million in protection money.[3]

12 more:

MANILA, February 15, 2005 --- A spate of bomb explosions in Makati City, General Santos City, and Davao City, killed at least 12 people on Monday, turning the Valentine's Day celebrations into a nightmare.

http://www.filipinoexpress.com/19/08_news.html

According to the government, the Rajah Sulaiman Movement (RSM) were behind the attack

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/158

I see headlines and a claim for a count of 116 by one convert, and 12 by an unspecified number of RSM.

So, my count still stands at:
Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88

It should be straightforward to produce your count eh - it was previously
1 terrorist, 26 killed.

Therefore your updated count is
4 convert terrorists (counting 2 for the RSM bombing)
26+116+12=152 killed


Edit - from the last link you gave, it says:

Strength
The exact number of members in the RSM is unknown, but the group likely has fewer than 100 members.

So, I'll be generous and agree that all these guys (RSM) are converts to Islam from Christianity and that the total number of these are 100. You just need to decide how many to count per incident (I counted only 2 per NLFT incident, to be conservative)

So, the numbers seem to be increasing -but it is still clear that those converts using the Bible to justify terrorism caused more harm than muslim converts.

Let us have your definitive counts and we'll check the ratios.

Cheers,
Shafique

16 more, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo went on a little Jihad terror spree, striking terror into the hearts of unbelievers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Muhammad

The Christian Terrorists are still winning though.. it appears that statisically speaking the Bible leads to more terrorist converts and killings!!

When we get to Africa, we can add all the killings carried out by the Lords Resistance Army - these converts weren't converts to Islam.. but I'll let eh carry on and see if he can get to shouting distance of the Christian Convert terrorists.

A bit more work for you to do eh... it must be hard work scouring Fox News archives!

(Can I ask you to maintain your own count from now on - I've done the initial work for you - I make your grand total now at 6 terrorists who were converts who killed 168 total, vs 232 Christian converts who killed 267)

Cheers,
Shafique

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Walters

Walters has made at least one visit to Pakistan and possibly to Afghanistan where it is alleged he has received training at a terrorist training camp. Walters was arrested along with Ismail Akhnikh on November 10, 2004, after a massive 14 hour siege in The Hague. Near the end of this siege, hand grenades were thrown at police. This was one of a series of raids on suspected Muslim terrorist cells following the November 2, 2004 assassination of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by fellow Hofstad Network member Mohammed Bouyeri.

The number of Muslim converts who have carried out violent Jihad increases...

21 more:

Polish-Born Muslim Convert Sentenced for Leading Role in Tunisian Synagogue Bombing

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/s ... ?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34554&cHash=dbb08118d8

In another French example, the "blue-eyed emir" Pierre Robert, who was apprehended by authorities, was the recruiter and leader of several Salafi-Jihadi cells involved in the Casablanca suicide bombings of May 2003 (La Gazette du Maroc, February 4, 2004). Other converts were involved at different levels in this operation, including Andre Rowe, a Briton of Afro-Caribbean origin who was a Bosnian war veteran linked to the Roubaix Gang (The Telegraph, July 9, 2005). In the latter examples, French and Algerian cultural/historical enmity had no effect on cooperation. Easily bypassing racial and ethnic divides, the French converts were cell leaders whose faith, commitment and legitimacy were not questioned on account of their ethnic or cultural background. In fact, conversion may help to strengthen perceptions of devotion in some cases.

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=948&tx_ttnews[backPid]=181&no_cache=1

This might take longer than I thought

Just to be on the safe side, I'll go ahead and include the death counts of the Casablanca Jihad bombings in this tally:

45 more

And the point of your discussion is what exactly? You two could go on like this forever!

Who cares, if they're muslim, christian, convert, whatever - anyone who take the life of others in the name of something is subhuman in my book.

Numbers don't matter, 1 person is 1 too many.

26 wounded from Jihad bombing

It said Pareja was the key operative in the August 2005 twin bombings in Zamboanga City which wounded 26 people.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/170416/alle ... arawi-city

eh-oh was convinced that Islam creates more converts who carry out terrorist acts. I said that this theory can easily be tested by looking at the stats. I even allowed him to select the time period and which countries/areas to count.

To be honest - I'm surprised that anyone other than the two of us is looking at this discussion - but for me it is a bit of a hobby to compare Fox News Headlines with reality.

I'll wait for eh-oh's totals to approach mine before I continue to add to my totals - it will be interesting for me to watch whether he can, but let's see and let the stats speak for themselves.

What is distinct between the two of us though - is that I don't propose that the acts carried out by Christian terrorists represents true Christian teachings - on the contrary, these acts are carried out despite what Jesus taught.


eh - you forgot to update your count, as I said, you'll have to do that from now. Addition isn't that hard.

(Also, I see you are now including 'alleged' convert terrorist attacks - should I similarly add the suspected NLFT attacks which I excluded?)

Cheers,
Shafique

Also, I see you are now including 'alleged' convert terrorist attacks

What 'alleged' attacks are you referring to?

Unlike your list which does not provide any citations (something a tad sketchy to me), all of my terror attacks have been confirmed (along with casualties) to have been carried out by converts with the converts behind the last two attacks that resulted in deaths being tried and sentenced under a court of law for their involvement.

26+116+12+16+21+45=236 killed

event horizon wrote:

Also, I see you are now including 'alleged' convert terrorist attacks

What 'alleged' attacks are you referring to?

The last one which had 'alleged terrorist leader' in the title:

Alleged terrorist leader cornered in Marawi City

As I said, if you want to include alleged convert terrorists - let me know and I'll add back in to my tally the attacks that were suspected in the list of NLFT attacks.


I'm glad you have finally got a calculator out:

26+116+12+16+21+45=236 killed

So, is it 6 terrorists now - or 7? Are you deliberately not counting the terrorists?

You haven't shown that the 45 killed in Casablanca were killed by converts - just an article alleging that there were converts in the organisation. This is another piece of speculation.

Also the 21 killed in Tunisia weren't killed by the Polish convert -

The attack, which claimed 21 lives, including 14 German and two French nationals (it was as a result of the French deaths that Ganczarski could be tried in France), was carried out by a 25-year-old Tunisian named Nizar Naouar, who detonated a gas-filled truck outside the historical synagogue

However, you seem to be including the 21 because the Pole was part of the leadership. Therefore, you should have no objection to me counting the victims of Tony Blair's escapades then - he was the Catholic Convert leader who caused the deaths of thousands of civilians.

Anyway - I see that you are desperate to get your count up.

Notably though, even with this dodgy data, you are still coming up short.

My count is 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)


Christians are still ahead in the stakes! Thinking about it - there must be fewer Christian converts in the world - so therefore the proportion of Christian convert terrorists is far greater than Muslim convert terrorists (by your own count). Therefore the Bible's violent passages must be a greater influence to terrorist than the Quran - or do you have a different explanation? (Perhaps there are more numpties who convert to Christianity than numpties converting to Islam??)

Cheers,
Shafique