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Red Chief wrote:The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute).

It was doungradable cheap version for Pakistan only. China has no intension to produce this aircraft for own air force but emphasize on more advanced J-10 4+ generation project.

Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.

China had reportedly even bought 100 Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia for installing on JF-17s, with an option to contract for another 400 engines.

In January 2007, however, Forecast International reported that Russia had refused permission for the transfer of its RD-93 engines, derived from the RD-33 that equips the MiG-29.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/stu ... ded-02984/

yes the only thing russian on the plane was the engine. Other parts like radar or HUD etc etc are not russian.

by the way the russians were able to re-export the engines to Pakistan.

Latest is they are not going to be using the russian engines anymore.

RB I'm tired of having to literally Spell out everything to you....

Firstly I never said that you people are going after terrorists in Kashmir.
What I did say is that during the peak of the terrorist movement in India occupied Kashmir, the Pak governmnet would defend those terrorists as freedom fighters.
Now those very freedom fighters are on rampage in Pakistan exploding bombs in hotels and police camps. I wonder how those terrorists became so powerful? Who created them? And your army now has to destroy what it created!

At the beginning of this thread you stated that Pakistani nuclear technology came from China. Now ur saying that you developed it all on ur own? Talk bout contadiction!

And finally the purpose of this thread was not to talk about nuclear warfare and the destruction a 45KT is capable of.....it was to discuss propoganda by the Indian media.

Your stull gung ho bout apparantly correcting false info? What false info? I stated that at the very most you may have a 15 or 20 KT bomb. You replied that since your bomb is borrowed from Chinese technology it's on par with the Chinese one. That analogy is simply crap! Talk bout being content with sloppy seconds.
Oh you also spoke bout planes, well stay content with ur Pakistani simulators and primitive F16's.

I tried to intiate a peaceful discussion....as usual ur tribal mentality blinded you. So what's new

Misery Called Life wrote:RB I'm tired of having to literally Spell out everything to you....

Firstly I never said that you people are going after terrorists in Kashmir.
What I did say is that during the peak of the terrorist movement in India occupied Kashmir, the Pak governmnet would defend those terrorists as freedom fighters.
Now those very freedom fighters are on rampage in Pakistan exploding bombs in hotels and police camps. I wonder how those terrorists became so powerful? Who created them? And your army now has to destroy what it created!

At the beginning of this thread you stated that Pakistani nuclear technology came from China. Now ur saying that you developed it all on ur own? Talk bout contadiction!

And finally the purpose of this thread was not to talk about nuclear warfare and the destruction a 45KT is capable of.....it was to discuss propoganda by the Indian media.

Your stull gung ho bout apparantly correcting false info? What false info? I stated that at the very most you may have a 15 or 20 KT bomb. You replied that since your bomb is borrowed from Chinese technology it's on par with the Chinese one. That analogy is simply crap! Talk bout being content with sloppy seconds.
Oh you also spoke bout planes, well stay content with ur Pakistani simulators and primitive F16's.

I tried to intiate a peaceful discussion....as usual ur tribal mentality blinded you. So what's new

mcl we all know that freedom fighters were generated by USA. USA were and still are bunch of cowards who couldnt attack the soviets fearing that if there was a USA Soviet war in Afghanistan there could be a USA soviet war in USA itself. Thus they used Pakistan and generated a monster called Al Qaeda. The CIA and FBI funded these guys and gave them guns so they could kick the soviets out of AFghanistan. USA could have attacked the soviets but they didnt because they are cowards mate.
Over the time these monsters became more and more evil, they eventually had say in the local rules and were running drug business. These guys also became double agents. Whoever paid the largest amount of dollars, they were ready to do their dirty jobs i.e plant a bomb here and there. Pakistan, India and USA eventually started using them.

Mind you there are some genuine freedom fighters in Kashmir and the difference between those guys and terroists is that they just dont blow themselves up to cause civilian casualties in fact they target the indian army and its illegal stay in kashmir. Obviously pakistan helps these guys out as well and even still do under the table even though USA has a close eye on Pakistan.

Pakistan Army is only destroying the terroists not the freedom fighters. Pakistan is huge mate and different regions have different groups of people. You will not find pakthoons in kashmir fighting the indians, you will find kashmiris there. Just like in Swat you will find pakhtoons and foreign fighters finding the paki army not the kashmiri. In baloochistan you wont find pakhtoons or kashmiri fighters but baloochis obviously.

Pakistan and China have close relationships. It doesnt matter if the technology was western, chinese or pakis. The end story is that Pakistan a new country i.e 50 years old with a population of over 100 million people, with no major industries and plagued with terroism and international intervention now and then, have been able to produce a nuclear bomb. You shouldnt compare India with Pakistan. India has been there for ages, they had an established army, navy and pak force. Pakistan didnt have any of this, they had to establish them and they did that in 50 years. They might not be good but they sure are able to put up a fight . The same goes for its Nukes.

When the brits left india they had left well established industries such as steel etc etc whereas the pakis didnt have anything, they had to start from the scratch and thats what exactly they did although i feel they could still do more. But when you have problems such as overpopulation, terroism, hostile neighbours etc etc then you cant certainly focus on the growth of the country.

it doesnt matter if we or you have a 15 or 20 kt bomb or whether it has been borrowed from chinese technology or russian technology. What matters the most is 1) to be able to develop a nuke 2) which is able to do its job. Why do you think India keeps on making so much noise about Pakistani nukes? I am sure they know the capabilities of the Paki Nukes otherwise they would have sit down and kept their mouth shut. Also the Saudis are deliverying 50,000 barrels to Pakistan so that the two countries share nuclear bomb information. Hmmmm I dont think they will be giving 50,000 barrels to Pakistan had their bomb been rubbish!!!

again you are being childish by having a childish swipe at me by saying I should be content with our simulators and f16. In fact I am happy for Pakistan that it is able to start from scratch and that its able to survive these period of time. Also I am happy that Pakistan is able to co-exist with a neighbour such as India

You had false info about the Pakistani planes. You said that pakistan has outdated f-15s and you didnt mention anything about the f-16s. Can you show me a link which states that pakistan has f-15s? I dont think you can and I corrected ya thats all mate. Now obviously you didnt like me correcting you so had decided to compare the two countries, its tiger cats, religions, people and certainly its women too.

if you want to discuss about anything else you are more then welcome to start a new thread. As for this thread, Pakistan and India use propoganda to keep its population happy.

Time to bust ur bubble RB,

So you say that the highly advanced Paki Airforce is training the Saudis?

And that Saudi is selling oil to Pakistan with no restrictions in supply?

The missing link is a concept called Countertrade!

Now quite evidently no country wants the Paki rupee and the Pakistani treasury does not have enough dollars.

So the government resorts to barter. Selling off services, which includes free land to Saudi Arabia for agricultural purposes, military assistance etc

Basically RB there is no free meal.

Misery Called Life wrote:Time to bust ur bubble RB,

So you say that the highly advanced Paki Airforce is training the Saudis?

And that Saudi is selling oil to Pakistan with no restrictions in supply?

The missing link is a concept called Countertrade!

Now quite evidently no country wants the Paki rupee and the Pakistani treasury does not have enough dollars.

So the government resorts to barter. Selling off services, which includes free land to Saudi Arabia for agricultural purposes, military assistance etc

Basically RB there is no free meal.

yes MCL the paki airforce does train the saudis in exchange of barrels of oils. Not that many people know that. Politicians know it but do you think they will tell the public?

MCL all I did was to show you the close relationship between Pakistan and KSA.

KSA and Pakistan do have close nuclear development links too and in exchange the Saudis will invest in Pakistan Electricity Generating companies.

Nothing in this world is free and it comes at a price. But the fact is that both countries are getting a good deal. Pakistan getting 10,000 barrels of oil while the Saudis get trained by Pakistan Airforce personels.

Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !

I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.

desertdudeshj wrote:Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !

I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.

Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.

Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.

People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.

Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

abyssdesire wrote:Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

He-he. Look at the OP, very negative pro-Western point of view on India. Two guys have something in common - both of them are stateless cosmopolitans.

abyssdesire wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !

I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.

Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.

Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.

People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.

Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

I got to agree with him here that its a shame that Pakis bad mouth pakistan. Although I got to disagree that indians dont, they do it too mate . But the fact is everyone does it now and then. Ask the brits how they feel about their country being taken over by foreigners?

Anyways both the countries are nice places to go to and live in. But they got a long way to go. It doesnt help the two countries when they have certain hurdles like HUGE population, electricity problems, hostile neighbours, internal terroism and ofcourse USA itself.

Do you know that both the countries spent BILLIONS of dollars on its forces in KASHMIR? Why not use that money to create jobs? create a better infrastructure? Or invest in security or even in generating electricity?

They wont because both the countries are run by corrupt "DEMOCRATIC" politicians. Politicians, army generals are getting richer and richer by the day while the normal ppl suffer.

rudeboy wrote:

abyssdesire wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !

I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.

Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.

Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.

People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.

Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

I got to agree with him here that its a shame that Pakis bad mouth pakistan. Although I got to disagree that indians dont, they do it too mate . But the fact is everyone does it now and then. Ask the brits how they feel about their country being taken over by foreigners?

Anyways both the countries are nice places to go to and live in. But they got a long way to go. It doesnt help the two countries when they have certain hurdles like HUGE population, electricity problems, hostile neighbours, internal terroism and ofcourse USA itself.

Do you know that both the countries spent BILLIONS of dollars on its forces in KASHMIR? Why not use that money to create jobs? create a better infrastructure? Or invest in security or even in generating electricity?

They wont because both the countries are run by corrupt "DEMOCRATIC" politicians. Politicians, army generals are getting richer and richer by the day while the normal ppl suffer.

If you lived in a country that had a huge amount of immigrants you would understand the complaints raised. They have a huge negative impact on the economy of the country they fled to as many of them go on the dole. On top of that, they reap government benefits that those born and raised in said country wouldn't qualify for.

For instance: in the US the social security system, that is funded by Americans by working, was tapped into to provide "income" to many immigrants, who never worked a day or paid a red penny into the system. For several years there was alot of talk - by the government - that the social security system would be broke and that those who would retire in the future may very well not see a retirement income. This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.

Carved on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

In the states even children who are illegal immigrants are allowed a free education, which causes overcrowding in classrooms. The are provided free medical. The parents generally work off the books so there is no paying taxes, the money gets sent back "home".

Well they asked for it, and they got it, and they are still coming through that "golden door". The US, and every other country that is burdened with a large population of non-productive immigrants, should take care of those who are homegrown, not the majority of immigrants who take rather than give.

This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.

Really?

Please also remember that the rich economies get richer on the expense of the developing/ poor nations…

If the cost of those raw materials and natural resources your business/states men had bought from poor countries were to be labeled as high as the rich market prices than No way today’s wealthy countries would be as advanced and richer than any other developing or poor countries…

Again if the rich countries still continue to stay rich and wealthy it’s also because their business/statesmen used or still using the poor nationals as cheap labor for their economic manufacturing of goods and services only to sell them back at much higher prices to the same ol developing/ poor countries..

Today I still wonder why those poor nations despite trading or whatever are still poor and exploited..

These days if developed countries have influx of immigrants then I think we must think about it twice before immigrants criticized..

I guess under the current economic struggles and corrupt capitalist system the rich countries maybe can’t afford to pay out some of their wealth back to the poor nations to support their development programs and therefore the quickest way to tackle world poverty maybe lies behind allowing some sort of loose immigration policies to take place and free living on dolls, this time of course on the expense of the rich country citizens (so it is a chain reaction)

To stop immigration and economic wars, the wealth of the world should be balanced and evenly distributed between rich and poor nations and exploiting labor/markets must be stopped, to do that every country must pay attention to curve the problems of corrupt wild capitalist system and its financial mechanism, world trade laws and local policies etc. and for goodness sake those off shore heavens and black money markets and hidden accounts all should be transparent and controlled very well for the benefits of the societies.

Berrin wrote:

This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.

Really?

Please also remember that the rich economies get richer on the expense of the developing/ poor nations…

If the cost of those raw materials and natural resources your business/states men had bought from poor countries were to be labeled as high as the rich market prices than No way today’s wealthy countries would be as advanced and richer than any other developing or poor countries…

Again if the rich countries still continue to stay rich and wealthy it’s also because their business/statesmen used or still using the poor nationals as cheap labor for their economic manufacturing of goods and services only to sell them back at much higher prices to the same ol developing/ poor countries..

Today I still wonder why those poor nations despite trading or whatever are still poor and exploited..

These days if developed countries have influx of immigrants then I think we must think about it twice before immigrants criticized..

I guess under the current economic struggles and corrupt capitalist system the rich countries maybe can’t afford to pay out some of their wealth back to the poor nations to support their development programs and therefore the quickest way to tackle world poverty maybe lies behind allowing some sort of loose immigration policies to take place and free living on dolls, this time of course on the expense of the rich country citizens (so it is a chain reaction)

To stop immigration and economic wars, the wealth of the world should be balanced and evenly distributed between rich and poor nations and exploiting labor/markets must be stopped, to do that every country must pay attention to curve the problems of corrupt wild capitalist system and its financial mechanism, world trade laws and local policies etc. and for goodness sake those off shore heavens and black money markets and hidden accounts all should be transparent and controlled very well for the benefits of the societies.

Although well meaning, you thinking is not realistic.

As to my quote: I was referring to immigrants/immigration and the impact they have on countries, which realistically speaking, could be curbed by governments. Putting quotas obviously didn't help. Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.

I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!!

Bora Bora wrote: Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.

One notorious Brit told me that they are rather most drinking people in the World after Russians probably. That's why most pubs in Dubai labeled by Irish surnames.

Bora Bora wrote:I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!!

Darling, it still sounds like Russian kike ate free soup that was designated to some Muslim convert.

I've just seen a movie "Crossing over" which reflects the view from the other side of the fence after recent toughening policy against illegal immigrants. It looks not Ok in details but I think it was tough but right move.

On the other hand I cannot understand your negative attitude to LEGAL immigrants.
It sounds childish if your attitude is based on your one personal experience only.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote: Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.

One notorious Brit told me that they are rather most drinking people in the World after Russians probably. That's why most pubs in Dubai labeled by Irish surnames.

Bora Bora wrote:I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!!

Darling, it still sounds like Russian kike ate free soup that was designated to some Muslim convert.

I've just seen a movie "Crossing over" which reflects the view from the other side of the fence after recent toughening policy against illegal immigrants. It looks not Ok in details but I think it was tough but right move.

On the other hand I cannot understand your negative attitude to LEGAL immigrants.
It sounds childish if your attitude is based on your one personal experience only.

My attitude is not based on any personal experience. It's based on what is going on in the US because of the huge number of illegal immigrants. For the most part, legal immigrants can and do work and contribute into the system. They don't have to go "underground" and work off the books. They take advantage of the freedom to pursue their dreams. They understand the benefits of freedom. What I resent are those illegal and legal immigrants, no matter what country they came from, who are a drain on the system.

The fact of the matter is that the US government really doesn't care about the presence of illegals in the country. My negative attitude comes from the fact that they are a drain on the system; all they do is take, take, take. Having taken a quick look, apparently Russia has/had its own problems with illegals. No country should have to bear the burden of people who are a drain.

I believe I have that movie. Will look for it and watch it. isn't that with Harrison Ford? I think I watched it sometime ago, will take another watch.

You go to an Irish pub here and you can probably count the number of Irishmen on one hand. Many Irish pubs in Brooklyn. I loved going to them. Drink or no drink, the happiest people I ever met and know how to have a good time. They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction.

We agreed about illegal immigrants. So nothing to discuss. As for me I blame them mostly in increasing street crimes. Social walfare is so negligible in Russia nowadays. That's why no issue.

The dream of legal immigrats is a big joke in common. Most of them work on low-paid jobs much below their qualification and sucrifice their lives in hope that their children will be REAL 100% Americans.

You are right it was the movie with Harrison Ford.

They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction.

They are probably a goddam marvel of modern science. I cannot, especially after such poison as Wild Turkey.

Red Chief wrote:We agreed about illegal immigrants. So nothing to discuss. As for me I blame them mostly in increasing street crimes. Social walfare is so negligible in Russia nowadays. That's why no issue.

The dream of legal immigrats is a big joke in common. Most of them work on low-paid jobs much below their qualification and sucrifice their lives in hope that their children will be REAL 100% Americans.

You are right it was the movie with Harrison Ford.

They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction.

They are probably a goddam marvel of modern science. I cannot, especially after such poison as Wild Turkey.

Those "low paying jobs" you refer to are generally filled by illegal immigrants. Its just convenient for the government to turn its head the other way. Chief, it takes hard work for any (legal) immigrant to succeed in the country they choose to migrate to. So many things to overcome, including racism and resentment.

I hold no grudge to anyone who is willing to work hard and go about things the legal way. Many legal immigrants who work at low paying jobs are either poorly educated, and/or unskilled and/or there is a language issue. In any event those are the ones who sacrifice to see their children have a better future. Opportunities are there, you just have to work at it.

Example:

Fedex Senior Vice President of the ME and MENA. Hamdi Osman, an Egyptian who started out at Fedex working during the holidays loading trucks. (Now American citizen)

Indra K Nooyi, born in India heads Pepsico as CEO, 12 year post. (Now American citizen.)

There are many, many (legal) immigrants either first generation or second who succeeded in the US. They may not have reached the top, but they succeeded where they probably could not have in their homeland.

Bora, It's true that western countries such as America provide opportunities to people who come from third world countries which helps them succeed in life. But saying that it is costing real Americans their hard earned tax money and their homeland in the process is a narrow statement.

America is all immigrants. There is no such thing is "real American". Maybe your parents were born in America, and their parents. But that's it. People who truly America belongs to got jiffed in making crap deals and now are rotting away in reserves smoking and drinking all day.

These South Asians, Middle Easterns, Africans who are "flooding" the country and bringing with them a lot of baggage are a need of America. Largest share in immigrants are Mexicans who leave their kids behind so they can come clean your dishes, sew your clothes, make your car parts on measly dollars. Or better yet, why not just open the plant in Mexico and pay them even lower?

Look at every product in your household. How many are labeled "Made In China"? Same dirty Chinamen who run laundromats and 7 11's in your neighborhood 24 hours a day so you can get service anytime you feel like it?

My point is, the immigrants you see lined up at social services office are nothing compared to the immigrants you see working for a big fat white guy on 7 dollars/hour. If America didn't need them, they should just block their borders and watch their over-pampered country go down in no time.

wht the EFF :S where is this post going to. it was about pakistand and india and now we have people talking about immigrants :S what have pakistan and india got to do with immigrants people!!!!!! start your own threads

I cannot agree any more. I know totaly oposite cases espesialy for mid-aged immigrants:

1) M.D. who worked 20 years in surgery in SU carries a bag after family doctor in US.

2) My university-mate, Ph. D. in Science at the age 23 years, professor in Moscow. He has 10 years experience in USA: a half year in Coloradio and another half in Moscow.
Recently I asked him why he wasn't going to work in USA only. He replied me that in this case he would be forced to write articles for American Ph.D 4 years and after that his degree would be be accepted and he could work independetly.
Of course generational Muscovite with name in physics cannot agree on such condition.

3) There is another example like Sergey Brin, founder of google but he was brought to US at the age of 12 and educated in US mostly. Er... and he do reach the TOP, 6th position as soon as I remember.